Novak thinks that the ATP should fight for more prize money than the women

[Mastoor]

Male athletes attract more spectators in the other sports that you mention. Women barely play them, though basketball is gaining traction. But for the very reason you say that only tennis draws this kind of controversy is one of the reasons that women deserve equal pay. As women, we only see ourselves as dominating stars in so many sports, and tennis is the top among them. (Figure skating, basketball, golf and running are our other best ones.) You should not forget that women are by and large the consumers in, at least, the US. Therefore, we are a desired demographic for advertising. If we can see ourselves in a sport, we can be advertised to. This is worth money. Don't kid yourselves that it's all about who hits the biggest forehand. Eyes on the advertising is what the money is about.

Do you know what's the difference in pay between best NBA and the best WNBA stars? More than 200 times. WNBA stars earn officially $107,000.( It must be couple of times more unofficially, but the difference is still huge).

No, I don't understand the fuss about this. I figure it is only in English speaking countries, however, last time I saw the stats in each and every one of those countries women earn significantly less than men in most jobs. Why would they earn equal in tennis. The tennis women play is shit and none of them dared to play cross gender match ever since BJK. Interest the "consumers" show is in most figures, and I believe those figures include USA, on ATP side.

So we can come up with with any fake reason for women to be paid equal to men, but those that make sense are all on men side.

 

[Ricardo]

Why don't we leave off the word "feminist" and substitute "women," as that is what you're saying. That men have achieved more...what?...in history? While they control the narrative? Sure. Women haven't actually done badly, since we have been treated as "property" across much of history, and convenient bargaining tools for advantageous marriages. Since we haven't even been always the ones educated, including now. Given the handicapping, we've done ok.

Men invented tennis, playing to their strengths, as they have with most sports. There are sports where women excel over men, but they are not the most popular. You say people prefer matches at a higher level, and I gave you an example of one in which the women's was more compelling, which you ignored.

If your measure is what the commercial world thinks they're worth, here is a list of the top 10 earners in tennis: http://www.abcnewspoint.com/top-10-richest-tennis-players-in-the-world/ 5 men, 5 women.

i have upset another feminist just stating facts, haven't i?

Control the narrative? really? who stopped women from inventing things? who founded all those 'important companies (google, microsoft, oracle, yahoo etc etc etc?) don't play the victim all the time, any reason why women don't control the narrative? oh of course, what you are saying is, 'its all your fault we haven't achieved'..... come on, you know that's not the attitude of those who 'can do'; losers find excuses and blame others (see what most of the feminist articles have in common?)

now if you change the scenario, where men are actually weaker, less innovative, slower, who do you think control the narrative? actually saying 'narrative' is wrong, men actually go out and create and do things that are vital and that's how they become dominant. If women were the ones that founded all apple/microsoft/goole etc, they'd be the ones dominating... men didn't have such things handed to them, they did what they did.

simple question, what do you think happens if women were actually better players than men?

and please stop using straw man argument about those crap sports where there is next to nothing participation, without significant number of participants the results mean nothing. I can pick 10 women to beat 10 men in any sport, and if education meant anything for you, you wouldn't have gone and argued such ridiculous things as ultra marathon because you'd have enough common sense not to.

 

[Moxie]

Mastoor, I hope you're not going to justify women getting paid less in tennis because they get paid less in every other job they do. That would be part of the problem of what is unfair. Basketball can't compare, and I agree. But what about US soccer. There is not a men's player that we haven't imported from abroad that you can name. However, the women in the US have done well. And it tennis, as Serena pointed out in her very well-considered press conference yesterday, the women's final at the USO sold out before any day of the tournament. Why? Because Serena was going for the CGS. That is box-office. I don't know why it bothers you guys so much that the women get equal pay...it's not your money.

 

[Ricardo]

Do you know what's the difference in pay between best NBA and the best WNBA stars? More than 200 times. WNBA stars earn officially $107,000.( It must be couple of times more unofficially, but the difference is still huge).

No, I don't understand the fuss about this. I figure it is only in English speaking countries, however, last time I saw the stats in each and every one of those countries women earn significantly less than men in most jobs. Why would they earn equal in tennis. The tennis women play is shit and none of them dared to play cross gender match ever since BJK. Interest the "consumers" show is in most figures, and I believe those figures include USA, on ATP side.

So we can come up with with any fake reason for women to be paid equal to men, but those that make sense are all on men side.

don't you know women beat men in ultra-marathon? don't you know men only win because they invented sports which only suit them?

don't you know men 'handicapped' women and that's the only reason they come out on top in everything they do?

seriously feminists will whinge on forever, but they'll never perform well enough to get results. all they do until now, is talk and find excuse for incompetence. (this applies not only to men/women debate but to everyone in any field actually). Look how weak china was (and Japan, Germany, Korea etc), and look where they are now, they've gradually become dominant forces after doing things, instead of feeling sorry for themselves.

 

[Moxie]

...such ridiculous things as ultra marathon because you'd have enough common sense not to.

I only said "running." But you're right. Women have bested men in ultra-marathons.

I don't see why you get so twisted up when I say that men have controlled the narrative. Who wrote the history books? And if your attitude is any example, no wonder women don't feature hugely. It's not because they haven't been accomplished. I will never understand why this conversation blows the top off of some men's heads. As I said above: it's not your money. But, apparently, it involves your cojones.

 

[Ricardo]

Mastoor, I hope you're not going to justify women getting paid less in tennis because they get paid less in every other job they do. That would be part of the problem of what is unfair. Basketball can't compare, and I agree. But what about US soccer. There is not a men's player that we haven't imported from abroad that you can name. However, the women in the US have done well. And it tennis, as Serena pointed out in her very well-considered press conference yesterday, the women's final at the USO sold out before any day of the tournament. Why? Because Serena was going for the CGS. That is box-office. I don't know why it bothers you guys so much that the women get equal pay...it's not your money.

Again using one exception and generalise it is not going to win you any argument. Serena Williams is only a star because she is protected, ironically, by men. In any real job where the field is open, she would be another unknown journey man/woman. Fact is, she's already got so much concession and been rewarded more than what she (or her tennis ability) deserves. You can't blame the guys for pointing out the truth, i am not bothered just like to tell what it is.

 

[Moxie]

Again using one exception and generalise it is not going to win you any argument. Serena Williams is only a star because she is protected, ironically, by men. In any real job where the field is open, she would be another unknown journey man/woman. Fact is, she's already got so much concession and been rewarded more than what she (or her tennis ability) deserves. You can't blame the guys for pointing out the truth, i am not bothered just like to tell what it is.

Ricardo, you've really gone too far here. Serena is one of the great American athletes. Protected by men? Justify that.

 

[Ricardo]

I only said "running." But you're right. Women have bested men in ultra-marathons.

I don't see why you get so twisted up when I say that men have controlled the narrative. Who wrote the history books? And if your attitude is any example, no wonder women don't feature hugely. It's not because they haven't been accomplished. I will never understand why this conversation blows the top off of some men's heads. As I said above: it's not your money. But, apparently, it involves your cojones.

actually it bothers you why men top women in anything that means something, and you couldn't help but come up with lame excuses and play the victim card. I'll simplify this for you, equal pay in tennis is unfair as it benefits the worse players (WTA).... Djoker told the truth and biased idiots blame him for it.

name me one sport where the worse players get equal pay to the better ones.

 

[Ricardo]

Ricardo, you've really gone too far here. Serena is one of the great American athletes. Protected by men? Justify that.

If you allow open competition, she would accomplish nothing. Since you allow for ultra-marathon as 'prime example', you can't apply differently to tennis.

 

[Moxie]

If you allow open competition, she would accomplish nothing. Since you allow for ultra-marathon as 'prime example', you can't apply differently to tennis.

No, the sports are played differently. Now you're being a straw-man. And I didn't bring in ultra-marathons, you did. That wouldn't even be my prime example.

 

[Ricardo]

By the way i almost got fooled into thinking that women are better in ultra-marathon, the records say otherwise. Still, this sport is nothing and you only get female winners (like once in a blue moon) because the pool is too small. Moxie, find me any sport where women are better.

 

[Ricardo]

No, the sports are played differently. Now you're being a straw-man. And I didn't bring in ultra-marathons, you did. That wouldn't even be my prime example.

how is men and women's tennis played differently? last time i checked, rules are the same just different length in slam events. It would only be fair if they competed in the same field, look who is the straw-man? sorry to tell you but Williams chickened out from playing against the men, because they simply got out-played.

or you think they can win in best of 3 sets? haha.

 

[Moxie]

actually it bothers you why men top women in anything that means something, and you couldn't help but come up with lame excuses and play the victim card. I'll simplify this for you, equal pay in tennis is unfair as it benefits the worse players (WTA).... Djoker told the truth and biased idiots blame him for it.

name me one sport where the worse players get equal pay to the better ones.

I don't believe I have once played the "victim" in this debate. I'm arguing my points. You read in based on your biases. One sport where lesser players are paid more than greater ones is our own. Maria Sharapova is the highest paid athlete in sports, and yet she has accomplished less than Serena. And Kei Nishikori, apparently, is the highest paid tennis player: http://en.mediamass.net/people/kei-nishikori/highest-paid.html

 

[Ricardo]

I don't believe I have once played the "victim" in this debate. I'm arguing my points. You read in based on your biases. One sport where lesser players are paid more than greater ones is our own. Maria Sharapova is the highest paid athlete in sports, and yet she has accomplished less than Serena. And Kei Nishikori, apparently, is the highest paid tennis player: http://en.mediamass.net/people/kei-nishikori/highest-paid.html

OMG apparently education has done you no good. Maria got more sponsorship, not prize money. Sponsorship money has nothing to do in anything, it's just a reflection of value of her image. Same as Kei, prize money is awarded to players who win accordingly.

I hope that's not the way feminists argue and think things, because there is no way they can ever reverse the situation with such ability to 'think'.

 

[Moxie]

how is men and women's tennis played differently? last time i checked, rules are the same just different length in slam events. It would only be fair if they competed in the same field, look who is the straw-man? sorry to tell you but Williams chickened out from playing against the men, because they simply got out-played.

or you think they can win in best of 3 sets? haha.

In ultra-marathoning, your example, men and women compete directly. In tennis, except in mixed-doubles, if that's even still played, they don't play each other directly. That would be a difference, and is part of the point. It is late and I'm going back to bed. You obviously have some ax to grind. There is an entire history of women's accomplishments in this world, and I doubt that most men, even on this thread would negate that. You, however, seem to have some small and pathetic need to diminish them. I doubt I can help you further with that.

 

[Ricardo]

In ultra-marathoning, your example, men and women compete directly. In tennis, except in mixed-doubles, if that's even still played, they don't play each other directly. That would be a difference, and is part of the point. It is late and I'm going back to bed. You obviously have some ax to grind. There is an entire history of women's accomplishments in this world, and I doubt that most men, even on this thread would negate that. You, however, seem to have some small and pathetic need to diminish them. I doubt I can help you further with that.

so accuse me when you can't win a debate? just can't do better can you?

that's fine, just go and compare the accomplishments and you will understand. You need to know for yourself, just blinding yourself with feminisism agenda can't change facts. I diminished nothing, all it takes is looking up basic information and it's all crystal clear.

 

[Moxie]

OMG apparently education has done you no good. Maria got more sponsorship, not prize money. Sponsorship money has nothing to do in anything, it's just a reflection of value of her image. Same as Kei, prize money is awarded to players who win accordingly.

I hope that's not the way feminists argue and think things, because there is no way they can ever reverse the situation with such ability to 'think'.

I'm talking about sponsorship, Captain Obvious. And stop calling me a feminist. You just use it as a slur. I am a participant on this board, and am expressing my opinion. This goes back to what we, and not just me, were saying about why women deserve equal pay in tennis on this thread. Box-office. If you generate sponsors, it means you are money to the tournament. It's not about the tennis, wholly. It's about the revenue that you generate, the butts you can put in the seats and the eyeballs that you can put on the screens. If you think it's about who's got the better fh or the most mph's on serve, you're kidding yourself.

 

[Moxie]

so accuse me when you can't win a debate? just can't do better can you?

that's fine, just go and compare the accomplishments and you will understand. You need to know for yourself, just blinding yourself with feminisism agenda can't change facts. I diminished nothing, all it takes is looking up basic information and it's all crystal clear.

I'm trying to resist giving you a laundry list of accomplished women across history, because that seems to be patently obvious. I'm trying to keep it to sports, and recent history, but you're a bit all over the place.

 

[Moxie]

By the way i almost got fooled into thinking that women are better in ultra-marathon, the records say otherwise. Still, this sport is nothing and you only get female winners (like once in a blue moon) because the pool is too small. Moxie, find me any sport where women are better.

Figure skating and gymnastics. You may not like them, but the women are the box office. No surprise, they play to women's strengths. (Flexibility, artistry.)

 

[Ricardo]

I'm talking about sponsorship, Captain Obvious. And stop calling me a feminist. You just use it as a slur. I am a participant on this board, and am expressing my opinion. This goes back to what we, and not just me, were saying about why women deserve equal pay in tennis on this thread. Box-office. If you generate sponsors, it means you are money to the tournament. It's not about the tennis, wholly. It's about the revenue that you generate, the butts you can put in the seats and the eyeballs that you can put on the screens. If you think it's about who's got the better fh or the most mph's on serve, you're kidding yourself.

it should be obvious that you don't mix sponsorship money into this.

I am kidding nobody here, Serena is only somebody in WTA) because she's got the better fh (and bh) and the more mph's on her serve. It applies to WTA, it applies to ATP and it applies to tennis in general. Logically putting her into open competition is the way to realise her real worth, if she can still fill the seats when some ATP 200's keep thumping her, i'd say kudos to her.