Nitto ATP Finals 2023, Turin, Italy

[nehmeth]

Novak Djokovic also had a pretty good year. He returned to the Australian Open a year after being deported and won it rather handily. Won the French for the third time, making him the only man to hold 3 career grand slams.. He came within a set of winning Wimbledon. He was granted entry into the United States and won the US Open for the fourth time in his career. He got on the winning side of the h2h against two of the best youngsters Rune and Alcaraz, 3-2 for both. He regained and held onto the #1 ranking finishing there for the eighth time in his career. And he won the ATP Finals for a record seven times, passing Federer’s six. Congrats Novak.

 

[Fiero425]

These poor, sad Fedal fans are fit to be tied! You guys don't know what to do! "Should we undermine Novak, blame a lack of competition, accuse all concerned that events are being gifted to him, or ignore him altogether?" As far as I'm concerned we have been so lucky to have this 2nd Golden Age of tennis where we saw up close and personal, the 3 greatest tennis players of all time! I give no quarter to past generations of players b/c many had deficiencies that were overlooked to put them on a pedestal in the first place! These 3 (Fedalovic) can't be compared to any past great b/c they've set a new standard that may just be unattainable due to the how grueling the tour can be on players today! I can't imagine any player in the near future that can stay on top for 20 years! Connors tried his best, but after all that time on tour, he still only had 1 season of 3 Majors & still leads the title record w/ 109 events won! Laver had 2 CYGS, but 3 of 4 Majors were on grass! Borg never won a USO w/ tries on all 3 surfaces; just 4 finals! Sampras never played a FO finals, but held YE #1 for 6 straight years! These were supposedly the best before The Big 3 and their accomplishments are embarrassingly stronger than ALL the rest!

 

[Nadalfan2013]

These poor, sad Fedal fans are fit to be tied! You guys don't know what to do! "Should we undermine Novak, blame a lack of competition, accuse all concerned that events are being gifted to him, or ignore him altogether?" As far as I'm concerned we have been so lucky to have this 2nd Golden Age of tennis where we saw up close and personal, the 3 greatest tennis players of all time! I give no quarter to past generations of players b/c many had deficiencies that were overlooked to put them on a pedestal in the first place! These 3 (Fedalovic) can't be compared to any past great b/c they've set a new standard that may just be unattainable due to the how grueling the tour can be on players today! I can't imagine any player in the near future that can stay on top for 20 years! Connors tried his best, but after all that time on tour, he still only had 1 season of 3 Majors & still leads the title record w/ 109 events won! Laver had 2 CYGS, but 3 of 4 Majors were on grass! Borg never won a USO w/ tries on all 3 surfaces; just 4 finals! Sampras never played a FO finals, but held YE #1 for 6 straight years! These were supposedly the best before The Big 3 and their accomplishments are embarrassingly stronger than ALL the rest!

Djokovic never played an Olympics final.

 

[Fiero425]

Djokovic never played an Olympics final.

I feel so badly for you! You really think that's a significant deficiency when it wasn't even part of the OG's again until '84! As I've said, Novak's not a fave of mines, but even I can appreciate how he's distancing himself from all others acquiring just about every record! The best "downer" you can come up w/ is "Novak never played an Olymp. Final!" IMO, what does that say about Nadal that he only has one when an avg. great in Murray has 2?

 

[Front242]

I'm going to add this to the plea for "tanking," even if it's an imperfect analogy. In 2011, after Novak had beaten Rafa in 4 consecutive finals, including 2 on clay, leading into Roland Garros, the Fedfans were hoping that Novak would be drawn to Nadal's side. He wasn't. They began immediately to suggest that Roger either "tank" the potential SF meeting, or at least hoped that he would lose, so that Novak could take out Nadal in the final, thus staunching his run of Majors, which were beginning to threaten Roger's. Federer, however, bet on himself, beat Novak in the SFs, ending his 43-match win streak. He didn't win the final, but he made a good show of it. IMO, neither would have won that final, and I have good reasons. But my point is that Federer fancied his own chances. That's a champion's mentality, if you ask me.

That wasn't the WTF though. He didn't have a free round to mess with

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I feel so badly for you! You really think that's a significant deficiency when it wasn't even part of the OG's again until '84! As I've said, Novak's not a fave of mines, but even I can appreciate how he's distancing himself from all others acquiring just about every record! The best "downer" you can come up w/ is "Novak never played an Olymp. Final!" IMO, what does that say aboutNadal that he only has one when an avg. great in Murray has 2?

7-11 vs Nadal in slam h2h.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I feel so badly for you! You really think that's a significant deficiency when it wasn't even part of the OG's again until '84! As I've said, Novak's not a fave of mines, but even I can appreciate how he's distancing himself from all others acquiring just about every record! The best "downer" you can come up w/ is "Novak never played an Olymp. Final!" IMO, what does that say about Nadal that he only has one when an avg. great in Murray has 2?

Why do you think he has failed to win the Olympics? It’s because they test the athletes A LOT there so he can’t use his usual “drinks”.

 

[Fiero425]

7-11 vs Nadal in slam h2h.

Ya got one! Novak was a late bloomer so Fedal took advantage and built up a big lead overall; esp. Nadal at FO! With both Nadal & Djokovic being cut back in even participating due to a ban or injury, that # isn't going to change!

 

[Kieran]

He wasn't banned from tournaments because "the world turned against him." He knew what the rules to play were, and tried to side-step them in Australia. That was an unpopular move. His character leaves something to be desired, so it's not so much assassination, as death by self-immolation in many cases.

Moxie--this is another example of your trademark mixing of fact and opinion which you then imply is all fact. I agree with you the Novak knew the rules in advance of all tournaments, although the Australia situation was certainly less than cut-and-dry as you like to present it, given a couple of court appearances, incarceration, competing opinions, etc.
But that wasn't even my main bone of contention--that's reserved by your expressing YOUR OPINION that Novak's character leaves something to be desired. YOU may feel that way, as do A LOT of Fedal fans (and other folks, of course). On the other hand, some folks find Rafa's " golly gee I'm so humble and gotta play my best in the next match (against a player ranked # 49) to have a chance", etc. is tiresome and phony and designed to take pressure off himself. And some folks feel that Fed's 100% nice guy also good/even tempered is an act and image he's long honed. And some folks find Novak's honesty about his goals, giving credit generously where it's due, etc., rather refreshing and less manufactured. All great opinions....

Australia was very clear cut. He had no legal reason to enter the country, so he lied on his visa and brought about these court cases you mentioned. The man has no credibility after his attempted heist in Australia. He showed his character most explicitly there. What Rafa’s humility had to do with it, heaven only knows…

 

[Kieran]

I thought sinner would win. He was riding a wave, is an unbelievable player and had the crowd behind him. I guess even i can underestimate novak.

sorry to say this to the nole haters but novak’s best level is best ever. Today he served lights out, even kyrgios was joking ‘like isner or karlivic.’. He was untouchable on his serve. Then on the return, he was getting everything back, sinner didn’t serve poorly and in semis, carlos served lights out (over 80% first serve %). and lost 2,3. Sinner was watching big serves come back and deep, all the time. From the baseline, novak was the more offensive player clocking gis fh at an avg of 85Mph, highest of tournament. To make things even more filthy, he was defending well, running everything down. He missed a few easy volleys but his volleying is world class and his slice one of the best. His drop shot is one of the best.

At his highest, this is the highest level attained by any player.. yes even federer. Federer was more flashy but not better. Nadal never attained this level

Sinner simply could’t do anything , he was primed to win but had misfortune of playing the goat and a level he simple cannot handle.

As nadal once said after novak showed him his highest level at doha:

Rafael nadal after 1,2 thrashing by hands of the GOAT:

“I played against a player who did everything perfect. I know nobody playing tennis like this ever. Since I know this sport, I never saw somebody playing at this level.

“When I say perfect, it’s not one thing in particular. It’s everything. If not, it’s not perfect.”

You didn’t think Sinner would win. You said that in the thread but you were lying. You knew that Novak would win because who was to stop him? He faced 20 year old newbies to the event in 4 of his five matches, and Hurkacz. Why would you think he would lose the final?

The answer is, you knew he wouldn’t..

 

[kskate2]

@Fiero425 @Nadalfan2013
Is it necessary for every thread to become a pissing contest between you? Take it to the war thread or a pm so I don't have to look at it

 

[Front242]

I have said this before too: Alcaraz and Medvedev were in the same boat too. Alcaraz, just like Rune, needed to win the match to qualify for the SF. Alcaraz didn’t think about, “Oh, I need to lose a set because I don’t think I want to face Djokovic in the SF!” Alcaraz went out there and just focus on winning the match and he qualified for the SF, that’s it.

And for Medvedev, Alcaraz made it easier for him to conserve energy because Medvedev knew that Alcaraz wanted to take the match instead of just spraying UFEs all over the court.

Alcaraz has a decent h2h against Djokovic though including winning Wimbledon this year against him whereas Sinner doesn't. Big difference. It took a long time for Sinner to finally get 1 win against Djokovic and 2 in mere days was never gonna happen.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

@Fiero425 @Nadalfan2013
Is it necessary for every thread to become a pissing contest between you? Take it to the war thread or a pm so I don't have to look at it

Ok, I will try to talk less about the bronze medallist.

 

[nehmeth]

Well Jannik Sinner season has come to an end ( though he is playing DC for Italy)
He is the youngest Italian man to ever win a Masters title ( 22 years old)
Highest ranked Italian man of all time ( tied with Panatta #4)
60 match wins (the most by an Italian man in the Open Era
Tied the record for the most titles ever won by an Italian man (10)
1st Italian man to reach the finals of ATP Finals
1st man to reach the final of ATP Finals undefeated before the age of 23 since Federer in 2003
Wins 6 consecutive matches against Top 5 players
Won 8 consecutive matches against Top 10 players
4 titles in 2023
Year ending ranking of No 4
Well done Jannik!

Huge kudos to J. Sinner. Was watching TC post match. Glowing commentary for the Italian. For the better part of a week he was the top player in the world, the results don’t lie. What a springboard into 2024. The adjustments he made this year - he’s no longer a kid that hits big shots. Going forward he has become a contender for the highest echelons of this sport. Looking forward to see what he and Cahill will do to further hone his game.

 

[tented]

 

[tented]

 

[shawnbm]

Congrats to Nole and his folks. Mighty impressive yet again. He appeared these last two matches to be largely impenetrable with his backcourt coverage. My son asked me how it is he is so good and I told him he went through the Fedal Crucible--he came out battle-tested and confident. Only Roger can really play at his level on such a fast indoor court. Roger and Rafa are the only two who would walk out on the court thinking that they are better and will beat him. Watch old matches and see how they play him. They hit more winners, engage in longer protracted rallies and don't miss as much as these young players. They did not redline--they thought about what they were going to do. Nole became a much better player as a result. He has had great wars with those two in both wins and losses. Now, there is no one like those two around and he is showing how much better he is (and they were by extension). Novak's service might be better than ever and his return remains the standard going forward. Incredible really.

 

[El Dude]

he went through the Fedal Crucible--he came out battle-tested and confident.

I like this and it does a good job illustrating the player that Novak turned into in 2011 (in addition to his dietary and fitness changes). In a way he's the "child of Fedal" - an incredible result of tennis evolution to some, a monstrosity to others.

 

[nehmeth]

I like this and it does a good job illustrating the player that Novak turned into in 2011 (in addition to his dietary and fitness changes). In a way he's the "child of Fedal" - an incredible result of tennis evolution to some, a monstrosity to others.

I was listening to Roddick, Courier and Kyrgios chatting after the final… they were all saying that the Fedal (crucible as Shawn calls it), created a player who would always work on his vulnerabilities until they were no longer so. Kyrgios was saying how Novak’s first choice isn’t to be full on aggressive, but against Alcaraz and Sinner, he made that adjustment. Sinner played inside the baseline in their first match and barely even got a look at it in the final.

 

[MikeOne]

You didn’t think Sinner would win. You said that in the thread but you were lying. You knew that Novak would win because who was to stop him? He faced 20 year old newbies to the event in 4 of his five matches, and Hurkacz. Why would you think he would lose the final?

The answer is, you knew he wouldn’t..

Federer, nadal wouldn’t have had a chance..

Alcaraz and sinner would’ve thrashed rafa on this surface, rafa was pedenstrain on indoors. They could’ve beaten fed too

Both mysteriously played ‘poorly’ aganst same man in semis and finals after both had dominated medvedev. Coincidence or maybe, perhaps, possibly, kieran, was it the goat himself who played at a godly level? The same level he showed when he thrashed fed 1, 2 at AO 16 and thrashed rafa 1, 2 at doha. Carlitos and sinner did well to get 5 and 6 games.

Clocking forehands at avg speed of 84mph, serving like karlovic, best return ever, best defense ever, volleying, slicing, droppers… when at his best, no-one has a chance, even the former greats. I mean, kinda makes sense kieran, it’s why he was able to win 4 majors in a row, has 400 weeks at #1, record masters, record eoy cup,, highest ranking points and elo rating ever. When the goat is at his best, it’s highest level ever attained and younster or fedal, doesn’t matter

Sinner didn’t just mysterioulsy drop his level. During round robin, novak’s fh avg speed as 69.. in finals 84. Novak also rarely missed, served lights out and returned lights out. Sinner was rushed and had leas time to set up to hit his shots so naturally, he had more UFEs.. he was under pressure on his service games as navak was getting everything back and couldn’t handle novak’s serves..

3,3 was a good score. He’s the goat kieran, what can you do other than prey he doesn’t play his best?