Nitto ATP Finals 2023, Turin, Italy

[Front242]

Gifted? So you don't think Djokovic worked hard to win this 98th Chp. of his career? Wow; so it's back-handed compliments til the end?

Gifted alright cos there was no chance Sinner was beating him twice in a matter of days. Djokovic's destiny hung in Sinner's hands and he let him live like Maximus The Merciful when he could have lost just this point and Djokovic would have potentially been gone before the semis.

 

[Front242]

Just another little detail on the tanking topic: throwing professional tennis matches is illegal. It’s match fixing. People bet on tennis. Even if Jannik had lost the match legitimately, it still would have been scrutinised for lack of effort, given what’s at stake. Trust me, it’s not easy to deliberately lose even a club tennis match - let alone a top level pro match - without it being somewhat noticeable and suspicious…

Very easy at this point or 5-5 later in set 3.

 

[Moxie]

Just another little detail on the tanking topic: throwing professional tennis matches is illegal. It’s match fixing. People bet on tennis. Even if Jannik had lost the match legitimately, it still would have been scrutinised for lack of effort, given what’s at stake. Trust me, it’s not easy to deliberately lose even a club tennis match - let alone a top level pro match - without it being somewhat noticeable and suspicious…

This is a really important point. It's illegal. People don't just bet on matches, they bet on sets. The Tennis Channel commentary was dancing around the notion by saying certain players "controlled their own fate," while careful never to say the word "tank." But they buttressed the idea that it might happen, which I think was wrong.

Since betting on tennis became legal, and TC is sponsored by Bet365, or one of those, tennis commentary has been a bit more about betting odds than I would like. I notice that tennis.com's new commentator discusses the odds more than predicting matches, which horrifies me. But that's a complaint for another thread, and another day.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Very easy at this point or 5-5 later in set 3.

Oh Sinner…

 

[Moxie]

No-one has has it harder than djokovic. First, his parents had no money and still managed to invest in his training. He had to deal with poverty and a war.

It is true that Novak is the rags-to-riches story of recent tennis, but he was lucky in a great coach early, and moved to Germany at something like 12-years of age to an academy.

When he made it to the pros, he has to contend with federer and nadal. One was a master technical purist and then other a gladiator who used his physicality to dominate opponents. To add to the challenges, he had physical issues, allergies which didn’t allow him to maximize his gifts. He still managed to beat fedal as early as 2007, both at their peaks and novak far from it. This was a sign of things to come.

A big point is that he had to deal with Federer and Nadal. He managed to overcome his allergies and physical issues enough to win a Major in 2008, so that wasn't his only problem: it was a stronger Federer and Nadal.

He then finally, through diet and physical training, got it together and since 2011, has owned tennis. Record after record and even bested the so called goats in H2H.

He hasn't completely "owned" tennis since then. He still had to fight the other of the big 3.

To add to the challenges, the world turned against him and he was banned from big tournaments. His character assassinated in public as his detractors rejoiced, like fedal fans here.

He wasn't banned from tournaments because "the world turned against him." He knew what the rules to play were, and tried to side-step them in Australia. That was an unpopular move. His character leaves something to be desired, so it's not so much assassination, as death by self-immolation in many cases.

Then carlos alcaraz rises and the talk begins - ‘he’s like nadal, djoker, fed combined, it’s over for novak’. Carlos beats novak at wimbledon and the talk intensifies - ‘novak finally looked his age, carlos will be unstoppable now’

And then.. here we are. Novak gets USO, two masters and eoy cup after everyone thought he was going to let carlos take over. Carlos and sinner didn't give him anything, they poked the bear and got thrashed.

I'm not sure who was saying it was over for Novak. He's got mere babies as competitors, plus divas and also-rans. Personally, I didn't even think Carlos could beat him at Wimbledon.

No-one has had it harder than novak and this has fueled his burning desire to prove everyone wrong. He is the GOAT. Highest peak ever (he has highest elo rating and won 4 slams in a row) and he has the longevity too. The GOAT.

I think you already said that no one has had it harder than Novak. I disagree with that. Rafa is the one who was in-between 2 All-Time Greats. He's faced harder competition to win his Majors, if you base it on the big 3. But of course Novak has the longevity. Good for him for his fitness, but he's not facing the same competition, either.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Very easy at this point or 5-5 later in set 3.

My rebuttal is this: Why didn't Rune win this point instead of Sinner losing the point in purpose?

 

[rafanoy1992]

@Moxie already said it before: Why is mostly everyone talking about Sinner losing the point or match instead of Rune actually winning the point and potentially the match?

Rune had the opportunity to break Sinner's serve and actually serve for the match. But most everyone is saying that Sinner should have lost the match to remove Djokovic out of the tournament.

It funny too because if Sinner is in Rune's position and he did not break serve, fans will call Sinner a choker or too nice of a guy!

 

[Nadalfan2013]

It is true that Novak is the rags-to-riches story of recent tennis, but he was lucky in a great coach early, and moved to Germany at something like 12-years of age to an academy.

A big point is that he had to deal with Federer and Nadal. He managed to overcome his allergies and physical issues enough to win a Major in 2008, so that wasn't his only problem: it was a stronger Federer and Nadal.

He hasn't completely "owned" tennis since then. He still had to fight the other of the big 3.

He wasn't banned from tournaments because "the world turned against him." He knew what the rules to play were, and tried to side-step them in Australia. That was an unpopular move. His character leaves something to be desired, so it's not so much assassination, as death by self-immolation in many cases.

I'm not sure who was saying it was over for Novak. He's got mere babies as competitors, plus divas and also-rans. Personally, I didn't even think Carlos could beat him at Wimbledon.

I think you already said that no one has had it harder than Novak. I disagree with that. Rafa is the one who was in-between 2 All-Time Greats. He's faced harder competition to win his Majors, if you base it on the big 3. But of course Novak has the longevity. Good for him for his fitness, but he's not facing the same competition, either.

Longevity as a slam champion is 2005-2022 for Rafa, 2008-2023 for Novak. Rafa has more longevity (+2 years) it’s just that he has missed too many slams and months during that span, hurting his slam tally and weeks at no.1.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Just look at the 4:37 mark. Rune had BP on Sinner's serve, Sinner hit a second serve and Rune hit the return out. So, how is that Sinner's fault if Rune can't even hit a 2nd return in?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

It is all hypothetical if Rune won and Novak was outed, would Sinner ended up winning the tournament?
I dont deal in hypotheticals, full stop.

 

[Moxie]

@Moxie already said it before: Why is mostly everyone talking about Sinner losing the point or match instead of Rune actually winning the point and potentially the match?

Because they cynically think he should have tanked it, if I'm being frank.

Rune had the opportunity to break Sinner's serve and actually serve for the match. But most everyone is saying that Sinner should have lost the match to remove Djokovic out of the tournament.

It funny too because if Sinner is in Rune's position and he did not break serve, fans will call Sinner a choker or too nice of a guy!

Or worse...he could have been accused of losing the match deliberately. I'm with you...Rune had every reason to fight for that match. It would have put him in the SFs. He couldn't close the deal. That's on him. Sinner comes out of this tournament looking very good for the coming year. Rune has things to work on. Novak is a seasoned veteran. He doesn't have to be asked twice if he wants to win. He pulled himself up to his full height, and beat the kids. Well, good for him that he still has the game to make it look like he's shooting ducks in a barrel.

 

[rafanoy1992]

What’s interesting too @Moxie is that most everyone wanted Sinner to start winning matches against Top 8 players to prove he belongs in Top 4/5 in the world. And the moment he actually starts winning matches, most of them wanted him to tank a match against a Top 8 player and rival in the future so the main guy is out of the tournament. Too bad the other player (Rune) didn’t know the scenario also (being sarcastic).

 

[Moxie]

I'm going to add this to the plea for "tanking," even if it's an imperfect analogy. In 2011, after Novak had beaten Rafa in 4 consecutive finals, including 2 on clay, leading into Roland Garros, the Fedfans were hoping that Novak would be drawn to Nadal's side. He wasn't. They began immediately to suggest that Roger either "tank" the potential SF meeting, or at least hoped that he would lose, so that Novak could take out Nadal in the final, thus staunching his run of Majors, which were beginning to threaten Roger's. Federer, however, bet on himself, beat Novak in the SFs, ending his 43-match win streak. He didn't win the final, but he made a good show of it. IMO, neither would have won that final, and I have good reasons. But my point is that Federer fancied his own chances. That's a champion's mentality, if you ask me.

 

[Moxie]

What’s interesting too @Moxie is that most everyone wanted Sinner to start winning matches against Top 8 players to prove he belongs in Top 4/5 in the world. And the moment he actually starts winning matches, most of them wanted him to tank a match against a Top 8 player and rival in the future so the main guy is out of the tournament. Too bad the other player (Rune) didn’t know the scenario also (being sarcastic).

Winning breeds winning. Sinner didn't have the stuff today, but he'll take a lot of positives into 2024. Rune knows he's got a lot to work on. Of the two, Sinner is in the better position.

 

[rafanoy1992]

I have said this before too: Alcaraz and Medvedev were in the same boat too. Alcaraz, just like Rune, needed to win the match to qualify for the SF. Alcaraz didn’t think about, “Oh, I need to lose a set because I don’t think I want to face Djokovic in the SF!” Alcaraz went out there and just focus on winning the match and he qualified for the SF, that’s it.

And for Medvedev, Alcaraz made it easier for him to conserve energy because Medvedev knew that Alcaraz wanted to take the match instead of just spraying UFEs all over the court.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Well Jannik Sinner season has come to an end ( though he is playing DC for Italy)
He is the youngest Italian man to ever win a Masters title ( 22 years old)
Highest ranked Italian man of all time ( tied with Panatta #4)
60 match wins (the most by an Italian man in the Open Era
Tied the record for the most titles ever won by an Italian man (10)
1st Italian man to reach the finals of ATP Finals
1st man to reach the final of ATP Finals undefeated before the age of 23 since Federer in 2003
Wins 6 consecutive matches against Top 5 players
Won 8 consecutive matches against Top 10 players
4 titles in 2023
Year ending ranking of No 4
Well done Jannik!

 

[MikeOne]

I thought sinner would win. He was riding a wave, is an unbelievable player and had the crowd behind him. I guess even i can underestimate novak.

sorry to say this to the nole haters but novak’s best level is best ever. Today he served lights out, even kyrgios was joking ‘like isner or karlivic.’. He was untouchable on his serve. Then on the return, he was getting everything back, sinner didn’t serve poorly and in semis, carlos served lights out (over 80% first serve %). and lost 2,3. Sinner was watching big serves come back and deep, all the time. From the baseline, novak was the more offensive player clocking gis fh at an avg of 85Mph, highest of tournament. To make things even more filthy, he was defending well, running everything down. He missed a few easy volleys but his volleying is world class and his slice one of the best. His drop shot is one of the best.

At his highest, this is the highest level attained by any player.. yes even federer. Federer was more flashy but not better. Nadal never attained this level

Sinner simply could’t do anything , he was primed to win but had misfortune of playing the goat and a level he simple cannot handle.

As nadal once said after novak showed him his highest level at doha:

Rafael nadal after 1,2 thrashing by hands of the GOAT:

“I played against a player who did everything perfect. I know nobody playing tennis like this ever. Since I know this sport, I never saw somebody playing at this level.

“When I say perfect, it’s not one thing in particular. It’s everything. If not, it’s not perfect.”

 

[roberto]

He wasn't banned from tournaments because "the world turned against him." He knew what the rules to play were, and tried to side-step them in Australia. That was an unpopular move. His character leaves something to be desired, so it's not so much assassination, as death by self-immolation in many cases.

Moxie--this is another example of your trademark mixing of fact and opinion which you then imply is all fact. I agree with you the Novak knew the rules in advance of all tournaments, although the Australia situation was certainly less than cut-and-dry as you like to present it, given a couple of court appearances, incarceration, competing opinions, etc.
But that wasn't even my main bone of contention--that's reserved by your expressing YOUR OPINION that Novak's character leaves something to be desired. YOU may feel that way, as do A LOT of Fedal fans (and other folks, of course). On the other hand, some folks find Rafa's " golly gee I'm so humble and gotta play my best in the next match (against a player ranked # 49) to have a chance", etc. is tiresome and phony and designed to take pressure off himself. And some folks feel that Fed's 100% nice guy also good/even tempered is an act and image he's long honed. And some folks find Novak's honesty about his goals, giving credit generously where it's due, etc., rather refreshing and less manufactured. All great opinions....

 

[Nadalfan2013]

He wasn't banned from tournaments because "the world turned against him." He knew what the rules to play were, and tried to side-step them in Australia. That was an unpopular move. His character leaves something to be desired, so it's not so much assassination, as death by self-immolation in many cases.

Moxie--this is another example of your trademark mixing of fact and opinion which you then imply is all fact. I agree with you the Novak knew the rules in advance of all tournaments, although the Australia situation was certainly less than cut-and-dry as you like to present it, given a couple of court appearances, incarceration, competing opinions, etc.
But that wasn't even my main bone of contention--that's reserved by your expressing YOUR OPINION that Novak's character leaves something to be desired. YOU may feel that way, as do A LOT of Fedal fans (and other folks, of course). On the other hand, some folks find Rafa's " golly gee I'm so humble and gotta play my best in the next match (against a player ranked # 49) to have a chance", etc. is tiresome and phony and designed to take pressure off himself. And some folks feel that Fed's 100% nice guy also good/even tempered is an act and image he's long honed. And some folks find Novak's honesty about his goals, giving credit generously where it's due, etc., rather refreshing and less manufactured. All great opinions....

If he had played the 2022 AO maybe he would have gotten injured and had surgery, and today he would still be stuck at 20 slams. MOVE ON!

 

[Moxie]

Moxie--this is another example of your trademark mixing of fact and opinion which you then imply is all fact.

When did I imply that none of that was my opinion? Clearly some of it is opinion. It's been debated around these parts many times.

I agree with you the Novak knew the rules in advance of all tournaments, although the Australia situation was certainly less than cut-and-dry as you like to present it, given a couple of court appearances, incarceration, competing opinions, etc.

It actually is rather straightforward, and certainly I wasn't going to re-debate the whole thing in one remark. We have an entire thread for that.

But that wasn't even my main bone of contention--that's reserved by your expressing YOUR OPINION that Novak's character leaves something to be desired. YOU may feel that way, as do A LOT of Fedal fans (and other folks, of course). On the other hand, some folks find Rafa's " golly gee I'm so humble and gotta play my best in the next match (against a player ranked # 49) to have a chance", etc. is tiresome and phony and designed to take pressure off himself. And some folks feel that Fed's 100% nice guy also good/even tempered is an act and image he's long honed. And some folks find Novak's honesty about his goals, giving credit generously where it's due, etc., rather refreshing and less manufactured. All great opinions....

I've said that that Novak's character leaves much to be desired. The statement itself implies opinion, which has also been debated around here, and not often in Novak's favor, including by his fans. You may find Nadal to be boring, off-court, and I would agree that he is. You can find it phony, and designed to take pressure off, and that's your opinion. But if that's the worst he's done....He's never broken a racquet, nor sent a ball sailing in anger. He gives 100% all the time, by everyone's account. Yes, gentlemanliness can be boring, off-court, but he's thrilling on it. Federer's not my guy, so I'll let others defend him.

Sure, Novak is completely forthcoming about his ambitions. Did anyone ever say that's a bad thing? I'm pretty sure we were talking about things like hot-headedness which results in lots of broken racquets; fights with the crowds; thinking himself above the vaccine rules; getting DQ'd out of a Major for behavior he'd been warned about previously, and often; supporting the IW tour director after he made blatantly sexist comments; running the Adria tour in complete contradiction to all Covid protocols, which ended disastrously; firing his whole team except for Pepe Imaz; promising to let us know about certain odd supplements and behaviors, then not ever doing it. That's not all, but it gives you the idea. But you're as welcome to your opinions as I am to mine, but I stand by my opinion that Novak's character leaves much to be desired.