Nadalites – Rafa Nadal Talk

[Moxie]

Still dodging it. I'm not pretending Roger should have creamed Rafa every time off clay but the resumes suggest he is way way way better than Rafa on everything but clay. I don't think there was a big matchup issue to explain the underwhelming 13-10 record off clay.

It's interesting you include Novak since that matchup has been a massacre off clay for many years. Yes, Nadal has won a couple so it's not like you'd expect Novak to win every single match off clay, but he, like Fed, is far superior to Rafa on hard courts and grass and he has done a better job of showing it H2H.

You don't think there was a big match-up issue? *sigh* Obviously, there is a match-up issue. Or perhaps you're blind. And I did mention that they don't play resumes. Which you ignored.

I mentioned Roger and Novak because they are all obviously future Hall-of-Famers, and elite players. I, unlike you, am willing to look at the fact that the 3 of them are the best playing. I could ignore Novak, but that would be a dodge. I'm not as cheesy as you are. You like to couch the conversation as it suits you. You conveniently forget to address my point that Nadal is a great tennis player, not just a great clay courter. I remember our old friend Cali who was so insulted that Rafa won the 2013 USO over Djokovic. Our other old friend @brokenshoelace reminded him that it wasn't the resume, but the one who hadn't lost a match on HC all year was Rafa.

You can't lose sight of the year-to-year, or moment-to-moment, just because you're sure that one player is overall better on one surface than another.

 

[Moxie]

@DarthFed: it seems to me that you tend to abdicate when you're losing the argument. I know it pains you to say that Rafa is a great tennis player, but at a certain point you really can't dodge it.

 

[mrzz]

It's not like Nadal is "Gustavo Kuertan-good" on clay.

Leave my pal Guga out of it (or face the consequences). By the way is Kuerten.

 

[Moxie]

Leave my pal Guga out of it (or face the consequences). By the way is Kuerten.

Now you're being like Ricardo. I'm sorry that I don't have a staff to fact-check. Even the NYTimes prints retractions. I think you take my point, though. I know you're a Fed man, but you're not a drinker of the Kool-Aid. If Fed fans concede that Rafa is the greatest ever on clay, it isn't hard to imagine that those tennis chops translate to other surfaces. I didn't mean to disabuse Kuerten, but I had to make my point.

 

[Carol]

The Roger’s fanatic fans should learn from his idol own words: “Nadal has made me to be a better player” , enough words and debate, it means everything

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Despite being a Feddie, one thing that I accept (though grudgingly) is that Ralph is "The surface goat". Almost everyone would agree that Ralph is the clay goat. But, I am going one step beyond that also. Ralph is the goat if you take any player and restrict them to any one surface for comparison purposes to award "The surface goat" title.

 

[mrzz]

Now you're being like Ricardo. I'm sorry that I don't have a staff to fact-check. Even the NYTimes prints retractions. I think you take my point, though. I know you're a Fed man, but you're not a drinker of the Kool-Aid. If Fed fans concede that Rafa is the greatest ever on clay, it isn't hard to imagine that those tennis chops translate to other surfaces. I didn't mean to disabuse Kuerten, but I had to make my point.

It was way more friendly than you read it, Moxie.... (sorry for the tone on the misspell, it was part of the joke).

And of course I will defend Kuerten, since I once beat a guy who in turn beat him. The fact that I was 12 years old and the guy I beat was 10 (and Kuerten was 9) does not matter. (actually I think there is one more case like that). As I mentioned a thousand times already, I grew up on the same clay courts he did. So, we are part of the same gang. Back off!!!!

 

[DarthFed]

@DarthFed: it seems to me that you tend to abdicate when you're losing the argument. I know it pains you to say that Rafa is a great tennis player, but at a certain point you really can't dodge it.

Ha, I don't respond to you for a few hours and you start beating your chest in victory...

My point is simple enough, Roger has lots to lament in the matchup and most of it is off clay. Yes resumes don't play each other, and they all have to play the matches, but resumes do provide a basis for expectations. And given that Roger's resume off clay is like 5 times Rafa's, the expectation is that he'd do better than 13-10, that he would have no problem beating Rafa on grass all 3 times, etc.

I have always thought the matchup disadvantage was overstated a bit off clay and a few high bouncing hard courts (Miami and IW). He didn't lose the aforementioned big matches from Nadal just lobbing high topspin all match. He lost because he was extremely erratic (Wimbledon especially) and mostly sucked in the big moments.

 

[atttomole]

Despite being a Feddie, one thing that I accept (though grudgingly) is that Ralph is "The surface goat". Almost everyone would agree that Ralph is the clay goat. But, I am going one step beyond that also. Ralph is the goat if you take any player and restrict them to any one surface for comparison purposes to award "The surface goat" title.

I am one of the few who do not think so.

 

[Moxie]

It was way more friendly than you read it, Moxie.... (sorry for the tone on the misspell, it was part of the joke).

And of course I will defend Kuerten, since I once beat a guy who in turn beat him. The fact that I was 12 years old and the guy I beat was 10 (and Kuerten was 9) does not matter. (actually I think there is one more case like that). As I mentioned a thousand times already, I grew up on the same clay courts he did. So, we are part of the same gang. Back off!!!!

No, I thought it was funny, and I was really just joking with you about Ricardo.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I am one of the few who do not think so.

Just in case you misread my post: I am not awarding "The GOAT" title to Ralph. I am only awarding the "The Surface GOAT" to him.

 

[atttomole]

Just in case you misread my post: I am not awarding "The GOAT" title to Ralph. I am only awarding the "The Surface GOAT" to him.

I understood your post. I still do not think that Nadal is a surface goat.

 

[El Dude]

I understood your post. I still do not think that Nadal is a surface goat.

Really? Who is better on a specific surface? The only contenders are Roger on grass, Novak on hards, Borg on clay...and none of them hold muster.

I'm not saying you can't have your opinion on this, but it is about as a clear a slam dunk as you'll find.

 

[atttomole]

Really? Who is better on a specific surface? The only contenders are Roger on grass, Novak on hards, Borg on clay...and none of them hold muster.

I'm not saying you can't have your opinion on this, but it is about as a clear a slam dunk as you'll find.

What criteria do you use for determining surface goat?

 

[Ricardo]

Really? Who is better on a specific surface? The only contenders are Roger on grass, Novak on hards, Borg on clay...and none of them hold muster.

I'm not saying you can't have your opinion on this, but it is about as a clear a slam dunk as you'll find.

Roger has 11 slams on hard, not Novak.

 

[Front242]

 

[Carol]

Nadal training with Munar who seems to have a good future

 

[Carol]

Besides to be a pathetic hater you are disgusting :cuckoo:, go to Federer's thread with that!

 

[Moxie]

What criteria do you use for determining surface goat?

I think most use winning percentage on it, number of titles and specifically number of Majors. It seems a bit perverse to go over it all again, but this is the Rafa Fans thread, so I'll enjoy it: 92% win pct. on clay, which is the most, at least in the Open Era. 57 titles on clay, which is a record. 11 titles at RG, when no man holds that many Majors at any other Slam tournament (by +3,) also 11 MC and 11 Barcelona, both records. He's 86-2 at RG (98%.) His record on clay overall in Bo5 is something like 102-2, which is pretty crazy. Also record 81 match win streak on clay, the record. (Also overall for a surface streak, IIRC.)

By contrast, Roger, who I believe by now is considered the Open Era grass GOAT: 87% on grass. 18 titles. 95-12 at Wimbledon (89%) with 8 titles (the record.) He also has 9 titles at Halle, which may be the grass record (open era for men? But who knows...they used to play a lot more on grass.) He also holds the surface win streak: 65.

It doesn't seem so like you to be this petulant about it, but I do think most would give surface GOAT to Rafa on clay. It's kinda hard not to.

 

[Moxie]

Roger has 11 slams on hard, not Novak.

I've said my bit about Rafa on clay v. Roger on grass, above. If you lot want to debate Roger v. Novak as HC GOAT, though, I hope you will take it to a more appropriate thread, or make it one, if it doesn't exist.