Nadal vs. Djokovic in 2013: 3-3

[Riotbeard]

Yeah Denis, being straight setted is significant. Beating the same guy twice on the big field is more so.

Again - what is this thread about? And why do I get the impression it's to relativise a great year by Rafa? :huh:

Kieren, call me naive, but I think this thread is more about Novak than Rafa. I think your being a little defensive (as we can all be about our players). The position I see it from is that a lot of this year it felt like Rafa dominated Novak, where as it ended up being closer than it felt, even though Novak certainly lost the 2 biggest matches (one of those losses was a good battle, the other not). The point the numbers show is that when he was there, Djokovic still had the game to trouble Nadal, to such an extent that he beat nadal in straights at Monte Carlo, and had a big five setter at RG, not to mention beating nadal when the courts gave him significant match up advantages this fall.

Another narrative in this year's head to head, is how good Rafa played against Novak in his own back yard on hards in the U.S. This is the narrative that has been focused on up to this point, and it is very important, but Dude brings up some interesting points about the rivalry, and this years meaning for Novak. What would be the point in starting a thread in mid november to bring up the fact that Rafa beat up on Novak this summer where it most mattered. They're have already been countless threads about this, and only a fool would deny it. It's the common sense narrative of the year. To me dude just seems to be attempting to add nuance to this issue, not say rafa was second best or anything.

 

[Kieran]

I didn't say it was significant and I really don't see why we can't discuss this years h2h. Is it prohibited to relativise a great year by Rafa?

So we have to ignore any fact that might be detrimental to the narrative of Nadal's stellar season?

I don't think so.

You should take comfort in the fact that besides this interesting little fact, there is not much to deconstruct that narrative.

I don't mind to discuss the head to head but it's impossible to relativise it, unless we all agree that relative to losing twice to Rafa in the majors, Nole's wins are far less significant. A far more interesting topic is, has Nole turned the corner against Nadal. At least that one has bones on it. It might even have legs. But this thread is spurious. And by the way, I don't begrudge Djokolites their moment, but trying to make this seasons h2h into some sort of victory for Novak is ridiculous...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

Not for this year. 2 slams and five masters, but certainly makes the hunt more competitive next year.

Yup, this year was a done deal after the US Open loss. That being said, the h2h does matter in terms of positioning the exact greatness of the season, just like the number of masters won matters. Not to the same degree, but it matters. It's gives you a certain perspective on things.

What does the H2H tell us regarding the greatness of this season? The fact that they went 3-3 shows that Djokovic was an incredibly difficult rival this season, as he has managed to beat Nadal 3 times. Which only makes the 3 times in which Nadal beat him, including the two teams in their GS meetings, all the more impressive.

It tells you that Nadal was straightsetted three times, including one time on clay. It's an indication he was not invincible this year, which is an indication of how great his season was. It doesn't matter much, but it's a nice indication.

Just as the h2h between Fedal matters to some extent.

Well, Roger ended 2006 with a losing H2H record against Nadal (2-4). I think it still goes down as one of the best years in tennis history and very few will bring up the H2H as a counterpoint.

As far as this year goes, nobody suggested Nadal was invincible. A first round loss at a major to Steve Darcis tells you all you need to know in that regard. There's nothing wrong with looking at H2H records, but I don't see what is there to draw from Rafa's H2H record from Novak this year as far as implications for its greatness goes. People consider it a great year because he won 2 slams and 5 Masters. That still exists, with or without the H2H with Novak. In fact, the H2H with Novak contributed to that fact, as two of Rafa's wins over the Serb came at the two majors in which he won.

 

[El Dude]

Kieran, if anything I find it a bit refreshing to see your human side

And yes, I think you way over-reacted and took this thread, or at least my original intention, in a way that wasn't meant to be. I'm not bandwagoning or denying the greatness of Rafa's year in any way. Actually, I like Rafa better than Novak and prefer to see him win!

As I see it, the year went this way: Novak was on top and Rafa came back strong. But then Novak beat Rafa at Monte Carlo and it seemed that as strong as Rafa was coming back, Novak was still top dog - beating Rafa on his own turf. Then the two clashed at Roland Garros and it looked like Novak might actually do the unthinkable beat Rafa at the French Open. But Rafa slipped by on just a hair. Yet the doubt grew as Novak was challenging Rafa on clay courts.

Then a surprise occurred: Rafa reversed the injustice and beat Novak on hard courts in Canada. Rafa's confidence grew and he beat Novak at the US Open. The tide had clearly turned. But then Novak said, "Wait a minute" and soundly beat Rafa in Beijing. Finally, we come to the World Tour Finals and the two meet in the final, with Novak winning another decisive match.

There's not a player or fan in the game who wouldn't prefer Rafa's two Slams and year-end #1 ranking. But here's my point - and the point of my thread: Rafa's dominance is in question. Yes, he had the better year, but is he the superior player? I don't think it is so clear. I'd take Rafa by a margin, but it is a small one and, I think, arguable.

And that's the point. It isn't so clear as "Rafa is #1 and beat Novak in two Slam finals!" Looking below the surface brings more nuance.

The bottom line? That's good for tennis and non-invested fans such as myself.

 

[Moxie]

^ I won't step into your discussion with Kieran, but I'll offer these thoughts to the thread, having read through it. It seems that where things got off-track was between the discussion of "superior player" v. "superior in 2013." Everyone seems to agree that Nadal was the best player this year. I don't know if anyone is saying that Nadal is, categorically, the "superior player," even if he'd won one of the last 2 battles. At least I wouldn't. They are each strongest on different surfaces, though they traded some wins on the other's favorite surface this year. What we take away is that the rivalry is strong and viable, and we're likely to see more back and forth going forward.

I appreciate your stats, but I do understand those that say not every set is equal to every other set. You've presented us with the cold numbers, but there's a different heat and reality as to where they fall. So that's where the conversation heats up, too. But that's why we're here, I reckon.

 

[El Dude]

I appreciate your stats, but I do understand those that say not every set is equal to every other set. You've presented us with the cold numbers, but there's a different heat and reality as to where they fall. So that's where the conversation heats up, too. But that's why we're here, I reckon.

And I very clearly stated this in the original post.

 

[Moxie]

Yes, you did. As I've said, I appreciate the jumping off point to debate.

 

[Mog]

Are we discussing Rafa's superiority or who is a better player between Nasal and Djokovic in the year 2013 ?
Of course Nadal edges out as the better player in the year 2013. He won 2 Grand Slams, he is the year end no1 player,has won what 6 masters on both clay and hard courts. He dominated on both clay and hard courts season,,though he is not considered the best hard court player ahead of Nole.
Nole and Rafa are both the best players and will kee beating each other for some time.

 

[Fastgrass]

Start for another loosing streak for nad***

May be 8-0 this time ?

 

[Kieran]

El Dude, no problem with you, buddy, I know what you were saying, although a statistical analysis of the h2h this year still has to overwhelmingly favour Rafa. Now, look at it this way: Rafa came back after seven months and MC was his first match against the world number 1.

And Rafa wasn't up to speed.

He increased speed over the next few tourneys but the RG was his first best of five tourney in almost a year.

For the first week, he clearly wasn't up to speed, in fact he was woeful.

He improved and should have dispatched Nole in four. Nadal served nervously both times he broke in the fourth, skewing his forehand after. Credit up Nole, he was immaculate in the tiebreak and first game of the fifth, where he broke. After this, they brawled.

In the summer hards Rafa swept through everybody and took the main prize.

And since then he hasn't looked anywhere near as energetic or motivated, but he hit the year end #1. And though Rafa really wanted the WTF, he never played well there and Nole was different class.

In matches between players, there are indicators and matches which are just statistics. For instance, Roger beat Rafa in the WTF in 2011, but it wasn't an indicator of what would happen next time they met in a slam. It was just another statistic. But I would say that Rafa beating Nole in Montreal was an indicator, a victory we could read something into, just like Nole's wins in Miami and Madrid in 2011. They indicated something: they had a durable effect.

I think of Nole's wins this season as statistics, although the WTF maybe an indicator, we won't know til January, at the earliest. My own hunch is that it won't resonate much with Rafa, but might have an effect on Nole...

 

[huntingyou]

El Dude, no problem with you, buddy, I know what you were saying, although a statistical analysis of the h2h this year still has to overwhelmingly favour Rafa. Now, look at it this way: Rafa came back after seven months and MC was his first match against the world number 1.

And Rafa wasn't up to speed.

Your are selling Rafa short here. He just won IW the month before so the fact he got beat at MC it's a testament to Novak's level of tennis that day than Rafa's inability to be "up to speed". Not saying Rafa couldn't have played better but his level was good enough to beat an average Djokovic; just not an inspired one.

 

[DarthFed]

El Dude, no problem with you, buddy, I know what you were saying, although a statistical analysis of the h2h this year still has to overwhelmingly favour Rafa. Now, look at it this way: Rafa came back after seven months and MC was his first match against the world number 1.

And Rafa wasn't up to speed.

He increased speed over the next few tourneys but the RG was his first best of five tourney in almost a year.

For the first week, he clearly wasn't up to speed, in fact he was woeful.

He improved and should have dispatched Nole in four. Nadal served nervously both times he broke in the fourth, skewing his forehand after. Credit up Nole, he was immaculate in the tiebreak and first game of the fifth, where he broke. After this, they brawled.

In the summer hards Rafa swept through everybody and took the main prize.

And since then he hasn't looked anywhere near as energetic or motivated, but he hit the year end #1. And though Rafa really wanted the WTF, he never played well there and Nole was different class.

In matches between players, there are indicators and matches which are just statistics. For instance, Roger beat Rafa in the WTF in 2011, but it wasn't an indicator of what would happen next time they met in a slam. It was just another statistic. But I would say that Rafa beating Nole in Montreal was an indicator, a victory we could read something into, just like Nole's wins in Miami and Madrid in 2011. They indicated something: they had a durable effect.

I think of Nole's wins this season as statistics, although the WTF maybe an indicator, we won't know til January, at the earliest. My own hunch is that it won't resonate much with Rafa, but might have an effect on Nole...

There's a reason he didn't look as "energetic or motivated" and it starts and ends with it being his worst time of the year. You can bet he was extremely motivated at YEC. Monte Carlo was an indicator that RG was going to be a real battle this year, I don't think Nole would have found his game late in the 4th and early 5th if he didn't have that win to draw back on. And the whole talk of "Nadal not being up to speed at MC and RG" is funny. I seem to remember him winning everything in sight following his loss in the final of the first tournament.

 

[huntingyou]

There's a reason he didn't look as "energetic or motivated" and it starts and ends with it being his worst time of the year. You can bet he was extremely motivated at YEC. Monte Carlo was an indicator that RG was going to be a real battle this year, I don't think Nole would have found his game late in the 4th and early 5th if he didn't have that win to draw back on. And the whole talk of "Nadal not being up to speed at MC and RG" is funny. I seem to remember him winning everything in sight following his loss in the final of the first tournament.

Kieran has a point in the fact that Nadal wasn't as motivated for example at Shanghai and Beijing as he was during the summer HC season. He can't just keep that intensity so high for that long in the season. You are absolutly correct though, he went ALL IN at the WTF and came up short......I think he wanted it too much, thus his erratic play....and of course the surface it's just a challenge for him against the ELITES (just a couple of guys here to be honest)

 

[Kieran]

At MC, his game wasn't up to speed to face a world number whose stated intention was to take RG. Novak was too advanced and Rafa hadn't reached that level yet. Took him a few tourneys to get there, but even at RG he was sluggish for the first week or so. It's not easy getting it all back. IW was like beginners luck all over again, but clay? That's his home town!

By the way, I think Nole thought it was point proven at MC and took his foot off the gas a little before Paris, maybe to dampen expectations and keep the heat on Rafa. I believe that was a mistake. This year was Nole's best chance to take down Rafa at Paris...

 

[huntingyou]

At MC, his game wasn't up to speed to face a world number whose stated intention was to take RG. Novak was too advanced and Rafa hadn't reached that level yet. Took him a few tourneys to get there, but even at RG he was sluggish for the first week or so. It's not easy getting it all back. IW was like beginners luck all over again, but clay? That's his home town!

By the way, I think Nole thought it was point proven at MC and took his foot off the gas a little before Paris, maybe to dampen expectations and keep the heat on Rafa. I believe that was a mistake. This year was Nole's best chance to take down Rafa at Paris...

I disagree but that's ok, the difference at MC for me was Novak's level of play and not Nadal's lack of match play or comfort.

Novak best chance to take Paris is always the next one.........look at Roger 2009.

 

[Ricardo]

Kieran, if anything I find it a bit refreshing to see your human side

And yes, I think you way over-reacted and took this thread, or at least my original intention, in a way that wasn't meant to be. I'm not bandwagoning or denying the greatness of Rafa's year in any way. Actually, I like Rafa better than Novak and prefer to see him win!

As I see it, the year went this way: Novak was on top and Rafa came back strong. But then Novak beat Rafa at Monte Carlo and it seemed that as strong as Rafa was coming back, Novak was still top dog - beating Rafa on his own turf. Then the two clashed at Roland Garros and it looked like Novak might actually do the unthinkable beat Rafa at the French Open. But Rafa slipped by on just a hair. Yet the doubt grew as Novak was challenging Rafa on clay courts.

Then a surprise occurred: Rafa reversed the injustice and beat Novak on hard courts in Canada. Rafa's confidence grew and he beat Novak at the US Open. The tide had clearly turned. But then Novak said, "Wait a minute" and soundly beat Rafa in Beijing. Finally, we come to the World Tour Finals and the two meet in the final, with Novak winning another decisive match.

There's not a player or fan in the game who wouldn't prefer Rafa's two Slams and year-end #1 ranking. But here's my point - and the point of my thread: Rafa's dominance is in question. Yes, he had the better year, but is he the superior player? I don't think it is so clear. I'd take Rafa by a margin, but it is a small one and, I think, arguable.

And that's the point. It isn't so clear as "Rafa is #1 and beat Novak in two Slam finals!" Looking below the surface brings more nuance.

The bottom line? That's good for tennis and non-invested fans such as myself.

This is another bollock post from you, how is it not clear about Rafa's superiority this year? 2 majors and 5 MS1000 say it is, yet you put all the weight on h-h and number of sets? while i do value the importance of STATS, which you seem to do a lot to validate whatever argument you have, but you need to know the basics of how to prioritize properly.

Whatever you said in this thread is picking bones out of an egg, it's utterly useless and frankly nobody in his right mind would think of such things.

Let's do this, you have a point if we throw results at majors and MS1000 out of the window and look at number of sets and h-h.... then yes Nadal is not that 'superior', but if that's how you form your opinion i am not surprised why you often come up with ridiculous arguments.

 

[Ricardo]

At MC, his game wasn't up to speed to face a world number whose stated intention was to take RG. Novak was too advanced and Rafa hadn't reached that level yet. Took him a few tourneys to get there, but even at RG he was sluggish for the first week or so. It's not easy getting it all back. IW was like beginners luck all over again, but clay? That's his home town!

By the way, I think Nole thought it was point proven at MC and took his foot off the gas a little before Paris, maybe to dampen expectations and keep the heat on Rafa. I believe that was a mistake. This year was Nole's best chance to take down Rafa at Paris...

Nole's level was higher in RG2011, he played better tennis and i would've favored him to beat Rafa there then..... if he had the chance. Anyway Nole is still the better ball striker, he hits it cleaner than Rafa and is almost as fit but Rafa plays the big points a bit better.... and that's what made all the difference in their rivalries.