Nadal vs. Djokovic in 2013: 3-3

[Denis]

I think Kieran might be a bit sorrow over last night's loss :snigger

We are not free to assess the season the way we want? Nobody is saying Nadal was not the better player this year, but we can look into certain aspects of the season. The h2h is an interesting one.

 

[Kieran]

I think Kieran might be a bit sorrow over last night's loss :snigger

We are not free to assess the season the way we want? Nobody is saying Nadal was not the better player this year, but we can look into certain aspects of the season. The h2h is an interesting one.

Yeah, I'm disappointed after last night's loss, but I'm very happy with the season he's had, and to claim two wins in slams doesn't make Rafa's wins more significant and - yes - superior, is a bit rich.

So what's this thread about again?

 

[brokenshoelace]

The only one that looks out of character is the Us Open match. In context, keeping in mind that Rafa won the Roger's Cup and Cincy leading up to it, it might make sense, but Nole had no business losing that one that easily. That is a surface Nole just thrives on. So, that one puzzled me a bit.

As I just told DarthFed, I don't understand how that was an "easy" win for Nadal.

That said, I agree that the match was puzzling, in that I have no idea what Djokovic was doing in the first set. He only had 6 winners in that set, and then in the 2nd and 3rd he exploded for nearly 20 in each.

Had he started that way, we wouldn't have had to witness the absurdity of Nadal having 2 US Opens while Djokovic has 1.

Talk about a disordered world. Good grief.

LOL, not sure what's worse: this post or Djokovic fans liking it.

 

[Riotbeard]

I think Kieran might be a bit sorrow over last night's loss :snigger

We are not free to assess the season the way we want? Nobody is saying Nadal was not the better player this year, but we can look into certain aspects of the season. The h2h is an interesting one.

Yeah, I'm disappointed after last night's loss, but I'm very happy with the season he's had, and to claim two wins in slams doesn't make Rafa's wins more significant and - yes - superior, is a bit rich.

So what's this thread about again?

Come on Kieran. Nobody (or at least most people) aren't talking smack about your boy. Nadal is player of the year hands down, and on the biggest stages he was better. The FO was clearly close, but it is a credit to Rafa that he turned around the fifth set down 4-2. Who know what happens next year, but the fall has caused a momentum swing in the rivalry back towards the middle (at least), as opposed to swinging far towards rafa for the last 2 years really.

Also Novak felt dominated by rafa this year up until the fall, but now it feels much closer going into next season. No doubt Rafa got the better of this year in the rivalry, but there is a change in the air from the despondency following RG, Wimby, and the USO.

Give novak some credit, he is on the a 22 match win streak. He was not going to be denied last night, much like Rafa has been a good bit of this year.

Also do you remember the ridiculous number of rafa threads started this summer. Let us have our funlease:

 

[brokenshoelace]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record. Here's the six matches they played against each other:

Monte Carlo: Djokovic, 6-2, 7-6 (1)
Roland Garros: Nadal, 6-4, 3-6, 6-1, 6-7 (3), 9-7
Canada: Nadal, 6-4, 3-6, 7-6 (2)
US Open: Nadal, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4, 6-1
Beijing: Djokovic, 6-3, 6-4
WTF: Djokovic, 6-3, 6-4

Now to be fair, Nadal is 2-0 in Slams; 1-1 in Masters, 0-1 in ATP 500, and 0-1 in the WTF - so he gets the edge because of those Slams.

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question. Novak wins in total sets, 10-8. I'd take Rafa's two Slams, but the two are rather close, maybe too close to call in terms of who is the better player (we have to remember that about half of Rafa's tournaments were played on clay - a very high percentage).

It should be interesting to see how 2014 turns out, and if Andy Murray can get a foot in the door.

Good post El Dude. I was thinking about starting a similar thread, but you beat me to it.

When you look at those numbers from 2013 and the way that the matches went, it is clear that Djokovic is more so in the driver's seat than Nadal. If he plays on top of his game, he walks away with the match. If he isn't on top of his game, he will be right there in a long, grinding match and will have to fold at key moments in order to lose (as he did in Montreal and the US Open).

The US Open was the most regrettable loss. He clearly showed that he is the superior hardcourt player in that match, so it is a pity that he lost it. I still wince just thinking about that 3rd set and how Djokovic should have easily taken it.

There really was no excuse for that loss, given how much better Djokovic is on that court. But that is just something he will have to live with. Hopefully it inspires greatness in him in 2014!

Funny thing is Nadal was playing much better hard court tennis that summer, so no, that loss isn't nearly as inexcusable as you make it sound.

I don't understand this revisionist history thing. Yeah, Novak is better on hards on average. That much is a given. Nadal happened to be playing his best hard court tennis that summer, which puts him pretty much on anyone's level.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I think Kieran might be a bit sorrow over last night's loss :snigger

I'm pretty sure it's you who are sorrow over this season. I remember when you were so bummed you wanted to take the rest of the year off. Don't get me wrong, I'm genuinely happy you're here and do enjoy your posts, but people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially in such a confrontational manner.

 

[Kieran]

Come on Kieran. Nobody (or at least most people) aren't talking smack about your boy. Nadal is player of the year hands down, and on the biggest stages he was better. The FO was clearly close, but it is a credit to Rafa that he turned around the fifth set down 4-2. Who know what happens next year, but the fall has caused a momentum swing in the rivalry back towards the middle (at least), as opposed to swinging far towards rafa for the last 2 years really.

Also Novak felt dominated by rafa this year up until the fall, but now it feels much closer going into next season. No doubt Rafa got the better of this year in the rivalry, but there is a change in the air from the despondency following RG, Wimby, and the USO.

Give novak some credit, he is on the a 22 match win streak. He was not going to be denied last night, much like Rafa has been a good bit of this year.

Also do you remember the ridiculous number of rafa threads started this summer. Let us have our funlease:

Absolutely, I've given Nole credit for his response to losing the US Open and top spot. I said it all along. But what's this thread about? Revision history on the matches between them this year? There's nothing to analyse: 2 slams means Rafa won where it matters.

Nole fans are right to rejoice - but they can't rejoice over the H2H this year as well!

 

[Riotbeard]

Come on Kieran. Nobody (or at least most people) aren't talking smack about your boy. Nadal is player of the year hands down, and on the biggest stages he was better. The FO was clearly close, but it is a credit to Rafa that he turned around the fifth set down 4-2. Who know what happens next year, but the fall has caused a momentum swing in the rivalry back towards the middle (at least), as opposed to swinging far towards rafa for the last 2 years really.

Also Novak felt dominated by rafa this year up until the fall, but now it feels much closer going into next season. No doubt Rafa got the better of this year in the rivalry, but there is a change in the air from the despondency following RG, Wimby, and the USO.

Give novak some credit, he is on the a 22 match win streak. He was not going to be denied last night, much like Rafa has been a good bit of this year.

Also do you remember the ridiculous number of rafa threads started this summer. Let us have our funlease:

Absolutely, I've given Nole credit for his response to losing the US Open and top spot. I said it all along. But what's this thread about? Revision history on the matches between them this year? There's nothing to analyse: 2 slams means Rafa won where it matters.

Nole fans are right to rejoice - but they can't rejoice over the H2H this year as well!

Nobody is rejoicing their saying it improved by the end of the year. They are also saying Novak's wins were far more straightforward than Rafa's (hard to argue with). I would give rafa ten straight set wins over Novak this year if Novak had gotten the 2 GS matches. That's just common sense.

 

[Kieran]

Nobody is rejoicing their saying it improved by the end of the year. They are also saying Novak's wins were far more straightforward than Rafa's (hard to argue with). I would give rafa ten straight set wins over Novak this year if Novak had gotten the 2 GS matches. That's just common sense.

I'm querying the OP, buddy, which says "the record puts Nadal's superiority in question. Novak wins in total sets, 10-8." Then repeats the usual talk about Rafa on clay, even though he dominated on hards where it mattered.

I don't see the point in questioning the H2H when Rafa won so clearly in the big matches. I just don't think there's a need to try square it up so evenly.

I'm not getting at El Dude, by the way, who I love as a poster and who helps us out with number-crunching as well as generating great discussion, but this thread is a bit like the ones celebrating Grigor and JJ as the next best things, based on their results on a given week. It's bandwagonny...

 

[Riotbeard]

Nobody is rejoicing their saying it improved by the end of the year. They are also saying Novak's wins were far more straightforward than Rafa's (hard to argue with). I would give rafa ten straight set wins over Novak this year if Novak had gotten the 2 GS matches. That's just common sense.

I'm querying the OP, buddy, which says "the record puts Nadal's superiority in question. Novak wins in total sets, 10-8." Then repeats the usual talk about Rafa on clay, even though he dominated on hards where it mattered.

I don't see the point in questioning the H2H when Rafa won so clearly in the big matches. I just don't think there's a need to try square it up so evenly.

I'm not getting at El Dude, by the way, who I love as a poster and who helps us out with number-crunching as well as generating great discussion, but this thread is a bit like the ones celebrating Grigor and JJ as the next best things, based on their results on a given week. It's bandwagonny...

The dude abides the numbers . The numbers tell one story, where as qualitative analysis clearly puts this year down as a W for Rafa. Everybody has to be a little less defensive. Rafa and Novak are great. Even though this year went to rafa, I am so glad this is the marquee rivalry again. Another year of Andy-Novak would have been tough to watch...

All that being said, it is nice to see some Novak love in the threads, after months of threads about Rafa the mighty and terrible serbian slayer of doom and Lord of the seven realms, and then the only other threads are about is Roger a reanimated corpse who will never be good at tennis again.

 

[Correspondent Kiu]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record....

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question.....

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

 

[Riotbeard]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record....

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question.....

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

Not for this year. 2 slams and five masters, but certainly makes the hunt more competitive next year.

 

[Denis]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record....

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question.....

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

Not for this year. 2 slams and five masters, but certainly makes the hunt more competitive next year.

Yup, this year was a done deal after the US Open loss. That being said, the h2h does matter in terms of positioning the exact greatness of the season, just like the number of masters won matters. Not to the same degree, but it matters. It's gives you a certain perspective on things.

 

[brokenshoelace]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record....

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question.....

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

Djokovic was number 1 most of the year on the account of the points he accumulated last year.

Nadal actually led the ATP Race for most of the year (meaning points accumulated during the year itself), and THAT record shows Nadal was superior. He accumulated the most points in 2013. Not sure how that's up for debate.

 

[brokenshoelace]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record....

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question.....

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

Not for this year. 2 slams and five masters, but certainly makes the hunt more competitive next year.

Yup, this year was a done deal after the US Open loss. That being said, the h2h does matter in terms of positioning the exact greatness of the season, just like the number of masters won matters. Not to the same degree, but it matters. It's gives you a certain perspective on things.

What does the H2H tell us regarding the greatness of this season? The fact that they went 3-3 shows that Djokovic was an incredibly difficult rival this season, as he has managed to beat Nadal 3 times. Which only makes the 3 times in which Nadal beat him, including the two teams in their GS meetings, all the more impressive.

 

[shawnbm]

Notwithstanding how close it was at the end, Rafa's year was 2013. It was better than 2008 and arguably better than 2010 in some ways. The reason has to do with how many titles on clay and hard courts he won--big events, including 2 majors. It was a truly remarkable year, but Novak was almost as stellar--almost. Nadal is king of the year.

 

[Emma]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record. Here's the six matches they played against each other:

Monte Carlo: Djokovic, 6-2, 7-6 (1)
Roland Garros: Nadal, 6-4, 3-6, 6-1, 6-7 (3), 9-7
Canada: Nadal, 6-4, 3-6, 7-6 (2)
US Open: Nadal, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4, 6-1
Beijing: Djokovic, 6-3, 6-4
WTF: Djokovic, 6-3, 6-4

Now to be fair, Nadal is 2-0 in Slams; 1-1 in Masters, 0-1 in ATP 500, and 0-1 in the WTF - so he gets the edge because of those Slams.

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question. Novak wins in total sets, 10-8. I'd take Rafa's two Slams, but the two are rather close, maybe too close to call in terms of who is the better player (we have to remember that about half of Rafa's tournaments were played on clay - a very high percentage).

It should be interesting to see how 2014 turns out, and if Andy Murray can get a foot in the door.

This is where Nadal made the cut. Nole should have won that match but the reality is, he didn't. Their RG encounter however was awfully close and it's hard to pick a winner for that match, given that the difference between the two in that match came down to a few points only. But still, a win is a win.

And luck also favoured Nadal a bit as he did get a few nice draws here and there and that helps too.

 

[Denis]

So Rafa and Novak ended the season with a tie 3-3 record....

That said, I think the record puts Nadal's superiority in question.....

Don't forget that the record shows Novak was #1 most of the year with Rafa only gaining that at the end of the year.

What record says Rafa was superior? I guess some fans may think that way.
But I agree, this WTF raised a big question about Rafa's #1 ranking.

Not for this year. 2 slams and five masters, but certainly makes the hunt more competitive next year.

Yup, this year was a done deal after the US Open loss. That being said, the h2h does matter in terms of positioning the exact greatness of the season, just like the number of masters won matters. Not to the same degree, but it matters. It's gives you a certain perspective on things.

What does the H2H tell us regarding the greatness of this season? The fact that they went 3-3 shows that Djokovic was an incredibly difficult rival this season, as he has managed to beat Nadal 3 times. Which only makes the 3 times in which Nadal beat him, including the two teams in their GS meetings, all the more impressive.

It tells you that Nadal was straightsetted three times, including one time on clay. It's an indication he was not invincible this year, which is an indication of how great his season was. It doesn't matter much, but it's a nice indication.

Just as the h2h between Fedal matters to some extent.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah Denis, being straight setted is significant. Beating the same guy twice on the big field is more so.

Again - what is this thread about? And why do I get the impression it's to relativise a great year by Rafa? :huh:

 

[Denis]

I didn't say it was significant and I really don't see why we can't discuss this years h2h. Is it prohibited to relativise a great year by Rafa?

So we have to ignore any fact that might be detrimental to the narrative of Nadal's stellar season?

I don't think so.

You should take comfort in the fact that besides this interesting little fact, there is not much to deconstruct that narrative.