Nadal supports elimination of two serve rule

GameSetAndMath

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Excuse me, but, again, isn't your formula based on statistics that include the notion of a 2nd serve? I would suggest that this is where math doesn't serve as well as prose, since it's a completely fanciful and projected parallel universe, which got one of its legs cut off. Your p2. I say stop gazing at your mathematical navel and look at what you know about tennis. :)

I give up on you.
 

Horsa

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My friend, he was being extremely ironic. It was a very good joke in fact... if someone cannot even tell the division from the multiplication sign, how in the world he would understand the rest of GSM's post?
Haha! O.K. pal. Point taken. People who are only used to written mathematical signs rather than computer ones wouldn't have a clue. Written sarcasm can't always be read & different things are read by the same people in different ways at different times or in the same way by different people at the same time. There are many ways to read the same thing. People don't always read everything the way things are meant & sometimes people take things the wrong way on purpose to see what people say & to have a laugh. I also answered before I'd had a coffee in a morning & thought I was helping. I'm always still 1/2 asleep without a morning coffee or peppermint tea.
 
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DarthFed

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The best way to determine the impact on a player's serve would be to take the total % of serve points won and subtract the 2nd serve points won. Of course you would have to do the same for ROS too, take current % 2nd serve return points won and subtract total % return points won. I have little doubt doing this would show Rafa getting a huge bump compared to the vast majority of players. That is why it is so self-serving. Thankfully the retarded idea will never go through.

Moxie, you are totally looking at it all wrong. If you get rid of the 2nd serve it is actually the player's first serve that goes away. You are acting as though most players will be blasting their usual 120+ MPH 1st serve.
 

Nadalfan2013

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I haven't been paying much attention to tennis threads for some time, but I confess I saw this..."Tons of people" seems so much like Trump's "everyone is saying".... fake news! :lol3:

I could be president indeed. I will build a wall around Fedtards :good:
 
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Moxie

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The best way to determine the impact on a player's serve would be to take the total % of serve points won and subtract the 2nd serve points won. Of course you would have to do the same for ROS too, take current % 2nd serve return points won and subtract total % return points won. I have little doubt doing this would show Rafa getting a huge bump compared to the vast majority of players. That is why it is so self-serving. Thankfully the retarded idea will never go through.

Moxie, you are totally looking at it all wrong. If you get rid of the 2nd serve it is actually the player's first serve that goes away. You are acting as though most players will be blasting their usual 120+ MPH 1st serve.
I explained my position in an earlier post. I'm not "acting" like any such thing. I suggested that there are players who would have enough faith in their serves that a certain amount of gambling on their parts would go on. Some imagination is required, Darth...I don't think you eliminate the first serve, but that you get a bit of an amalgam. I don't say it wouldn't introduce a lot more caution into the average serve. I also don't think it's a going to happen, for the record, since you didn't read my earlier post.
 

DarthFed

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I explained my position in an earlier post. I'm not "acting" like any such thing. I suggested that there are players who would have enough faith in their serves that a certain amount of gambling on their parts would go on. Some imagination is required, Darth...I don't think you eliminate the first serve, but that you get a bit of an amalgam. I don't say it wouldn't introduce a lot more caution into the average serve. I also don't think it's a going to happen, for the record, since you didn't read my earlier post.

Disagree. If you eliminate two faults you will get the player's current 2nd serve for the most part. I don't think there'd be any tweaks or something in between the first and 2nd serve.

Thankfully it will never happen. It is just another silly and self-serving change Nadal would like.
 

Moxie

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Disagree. If you eliminate two faults you will get the player's current 2nd serve for the most part. I don't think there'd be any tweaks or something in between the first and 2nd serve.

Thankfully it will never happen. It is just another silly and self-serving change Nadal would like.
Again, Nadal didn't originate it. He answered a question...why don't you blame the journalist, instead. Anyway, the Guardian debated the question some years back and they also thought that you'd get some players gambling more, so I didn't make that up, either. A sportswriter concluded that as reasonable.
 

DarthFed

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Again, Nadal didn't originate it. He answered a question...why don't you blame the journalist, instead. Anyway, the Guardian debated the question some years back and they also thought that you'd get some players gambling more, so I didn't make that up, either. A sportswriter concluded that as reasonable.

And we are now sure that the interviewer asked Nadal if he'd be in favor of abolishing the 2nd serve?
 

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Disagree. If you eliminate two faults you will get the player's current 2nd serve for the most part. I don't think there'd be any tweaks or something in between the first and 2nd serve.

Poor servers surely have not much of a choice and would basically go for their second serves all the time. But good servers have much more confidence, control, variation and margin of error, so for sure those guys could balance things out. Generally people who do not play the game (not saying that this is your case) think of the serve as "just close your eyes and hit as hard as you can". This is simply very far away from the truth. Even at club level players know that they need to have variation on the serve: in placement, speed and spin. Federer can hit an ace with a mere 100 MPH serve, just due to placement and spin. Cilic won the AO semi against Nadal by heavily insisting on a very wide serve on the deuce court (I guess that from the fourth set on he won 90% of those points). There is a whole universe behind the serve...

Anyway this is just for the fun of debating, as I really doubt it will even be seriously considered.
 
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Jelenafan

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Poor servers surely have not much of a choice and would basically go for their second serves all the time. But good servers have much more confidence, control, variation and margin of error, so for sure those guys could balance things out. Generally people who do not play the game (not saying that this is your case) think of the serve as "just close your eyes and hit as hard as you can". This is simply very far away from the truth. Even at club level players know that they need to have variation on the serve: in placement, speed and spin. Federer can hit an ace with a mere 100 MPH serve, just due to placement and spin. Cilic won the AO semi against Nadal by heavily insisting on a very wide serve on the deuce court (I guess that from the fourth set on he won 90% of those points). There is a whole universe behind the serve...

Anyway this is just for the fun of debating, as I really doubt it will even be seriously considered.


Agreed.
Some players are who are big servers are not necessarily known for having a good or tricky second serve.

It’s really a case by case situation with each player, and we really don’t know who would be most or least effective ; just basing it on the current 2 serve statistics is too pat and simplified.
 
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Moxie

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And we are now sure that the interviewer asked Nadal if he'd be in favor of abolishing the 2nd serve?
He absolutely did ask that question directly, if you read my exchange with GSM. I quoted it, and gave the link to the whole interview. It is clear that something was added later, which the translation says specifically, so, in fairness, (I know you're capable of it, even vis-a-vis Nadal,) we can't assume that Nadal brought it up first. As far as the OP insisting on a more recent quote, I simply can find no original to that interview. (You can review my forensics on it, if you care to, but I did try very hard to verify.)
 

Moxie

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Poor servers surely have not much of a choice and would basically go for their second serves all the time. But good servers have much more confidence, control, variation and margin of error, so for sure those guys could balance things out. Generally people who do not play the game (not saying that this is your case) think of the serve as "just close your eyes and hit as hard as you can". This is simply very far away from the truth. Even at club level players know that they need to have variation on the serve: in placement, speed and spin. Federer can hit an ace with a mere 100 MPH serve, just due to placement and spin. Cilic won the AO semi against Nadal by heavily insisting on a very wide serve on the deuce court (I guess that from the fourth set on he won 90% of those points). There is a whole universe behind the serve...

Anyway this is just for the fun of debating, as I really doubt it will even be seriously considered.
Those of us who don't play anymore, but are close observers of the game understand that the serve is more than hit hard and pray. Even the big bombers, we understand, have more arrows in their quiver than just serving "from a tree," as Roddick once amusingly remarked of Isner. For top players who base their game on the serve, they clearly know a lot about it and how to employ it. There is more going on than just 135 mph. That said, I appreciate you and @Jelenafan backing up my POV on the debate. As you say, this particular change is not likely to happen. Interesting way of talking about first and second serves, though.

What seems to be constantly in the conversation, though, is the "no let" play on serves. I wonder when that will become a reality. It seems to have a lot of backers. The ATP seems to enjoy using the Next Gen finals as a place to experiment with innovations. Maybe we'll see it there next year.
 

DarthFed

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I think you all are overthinking this a lot. Players hit 2nd serves as hard or soft as they do based on how confident they are that they can land a very high % of them. Murray has an especially terrible 2nd serve because he hits it soft and also misses a fair share of them. This just indicates he has no confidence in being able to land a good % if he hit it harder. Federer's 2nd serve is certainly above average but there is a reason he isn't going for 110 or higher on 2nd serves. And that's because in his estimation he would miss too many of them for it to outweigh the benefit of a bigger 2nd serve. It is still a game of math.

If the players are only given one serve then they are going to use their 2nd serves for the most part. But what that rule change would do is affect how much a player practiced his serve. If players practice hitting 120 on 1st and 100 on 2nd serves they'd likely start practice just hitting 105-110. They'd totally forget serving big and then maybe try to practice the serve to the point where they can add a few MPH from their second serve
 

Moxie

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I think you all are overthinking this a lot. Players hit 2nd serves as hard or soft as they do based on how confident they are that they can land a very high % of them. Murray has an especially terrible 2nd serve because he hits it soft and also misses a fair share of them. This just indicates he has no confidence in being able to land a good % if he hit it harder. Federer's 2nd serve is certainly above average but there is a reason he isn't going for 110 or higher on 2nd serves. And that's because in his estimation he would miss too many of them for it to outweigh the benefit of a bigger 2nd serve. It is still a game of math.

If the players are only given one serve then they are going to use their 2nd serves for the most part. But what that rule change would do is affect how much a player practiced his serve. If players practice hitting 120 on 1st and 100 on 2nd serves they'd likely start practice just hitting 105-110. They'd totally forget serving big and then maybe try to practice the serve to the point where they can add a few MPH from their second serve
Maybe we're overthinking, or you're not using enough imagination. I think everyone understands how players basically approach their 2nd vs. their 1st. But we're talking about a world in which there is only one. I'd say it's not a game of math, it's a parallel universe. You've (rightfully, I think) said before that it poorly impacts a player with a weak second serve. A poor second serve is a lack of confidence, I'd say. Murray, by accounts of British journalists, hits his spots well on serves in practice. In match play, he tends to revert to an under-confident and weak second. I think he'd be one to be ill-served by such a rule change.

I don't think you're trying hard enough to image the rejiggering of the thinking, though. Early in a serving game, a player would try to go for more, IMO. Someone like Roger, for example, who wins on placement and not on MPHs, could feel good about going for it early in the service game. If it goes poorly, then the caution would come in. If it's going well, however, the player would be emboldened to keep going for it, right? But you are wrong, imho, to assume that EVERY serve would revert to a second serve. The calculations would be different. And good servers would still be good servers, though they'd likely win fewer service games. I do understand that this particular innovation would benefit the returner.

I'm not sure I agree with you about what they'd practice. I still think a big server would practice, and employ, the big serve. I just think it would affect where they use them in the game. As Mrzz says: they don't just close their eyes and serve a bomb. They are professionals, and have some trust in their shots.
 

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My list of the best servers in this "what if" world:

1) Kyrgios
2) Raonic
3) Federer
4) Anderson
5) Djokovic
6) Muller (yes, I know he is just retired)
7) Karlovic
8) Isner
9) Zverev
10) Lopez
 

Moxie

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My list of the best servers in this "what if" world:

1) Kyrgios
2) Raonic
3) Federer
4) Anderson
5) Djokovic
6) Muller (yes, I know he is just retired)
7) Karlovic
8) Isner
9) Zverev
10) Lopez
Interesting. I get Kyrgios high on the list, because he plays without any governor. He wouldn't care. I don't buy Raonic as second, because he's a workman, not an instinctive player. He'd be conservative. Federer I think would have a lot of confidence in his first serve. I also would put Isner higher, for that reason. I'd move Anderson down, again because, like Raonic, I think he tends to be a conservative player. Djokovic I would move up, because his serve has improved, and he's a brave and improvisational player. I think Zverev would do OK, so maybe where you place him, but I would eliminate Lopez, Karlovic and Muller from the list. Too old to matter in a big change. I'd add in youngsters, because they're brave and adaptable to changes, like Khachanov and Tsitsipas, and maybe Shapavolov, because he's brave like Krygios.