Nadal supports elimination of two serve rule

Nadalfan2013

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Federer is dependent on his serve , Nadal is dependent on his opponent's chokes. The former is superior tennis, still, sorry to tell you that mate.

Nadal has the biggest forehand in tennis, the best movement, the best mental strength and fighting spirit, the best volleys, the best backhand full of versatility, amazing overhead, amazing angles, amazing depth, best defense/offense combo, best topspin, best dropshot, underrated amazing slice, best return of serve, and best butt. :good: Federer is indeed dependent on his serve, that I agree with you on! B-)
 

Moxie

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You are projecting a victory without me conceding. He certainly promoted it.

What non-sense are you talking about? Both the links support my point, why would I take out one of them. You can ignore my links and go directly to atp website and click on stats under serving category and see where different players stand on winning % on first serve and winning % on second serve. He is not in the same position. He is in #58 for first serves and #1 in for second serves.

Do some fact checking before accusing people. It appears that even though I am doing the correct standing and creating the link, the link just depicts the standard ones. But, you can check directly. Click on any column and it will order the players based on that column.
Too childish now, for my taste. Sorry to have imagined we could have a reasonable back-and-forth. You win for petty, and let's not pretend I wasn't trying. :lulz2:
 

DarthFed

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Stop making accusations. Tons of people also believe that Federer gets coaching not only from his coaches but also his wife. Of course Nadal is amazingly talented and great at adapting, when Federer wins 2 slams on each surface let me know. But he won't cause he can't adapt, he's just a fast surface player.

Aww, this funny little troll thinks there is such thing as fast surface tennis. Most of the tour is filled with medium slow events. They have even slowed down grass to give grinding hacks a fair shot at Wimbledon when such hacks aren't getting tossed up by the Rosols, Darcis, Browns, Kyrgios and Mullers of the world.
 

Moxie

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Aww, this funny little troll thinks there is such thing as fast surface tennis. Most of the tour is filled with medium slow events. They have even slowed down grass to give grinding hacks a fair shot at Wimbledon when such hacks aren't getting tossed up by the Rosols, Darcis, Browns, Kyrgios and Mullers of the world.
Irony lost on you that these are exactly the guys that grass would favor? (Except Darcis, maybe...who even remembers him?) Makes a bit little of your bad grass argument.
 

monfed

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Nadal has the biggest forehand in tennis, the best movement, the best mental strength and fighting spirit, the best volleys, the best backhand full of versatility, amazing overhead, amazing angles, amazing depth, best defense/offense combo, best topspin, best dropshot, underrated amazing slice, best return of serve, and best butt. :good: Federer is indeed dependent on his serve, that I agree with you on! B-)

dull can cure cancer and turn water into wine.
 
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atttomole

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The situation slightly, but not too much complex.

Let us say that a player has p% of first serves in and wins p1% of points when the first serve is in. Let us also say, he wins p2% of second serves.

Then his current win % on serves = p*p1 + (1-p)*p2.

If the rule is eliminated and the player decides use his current first serve as his lone serve, then
his % of points won on serve will be = p*p1

If the rule is eliminated and the player decides uses his current second serve as his lone serve, then
his % of points won on serve will be = p2.

Assuming that these are his only strategies to deal with the change of rule (a wrong assumption at
that as players will tweak their serve to a compromise to deal with the rule change), then their
best strategy would yield max(p*p1, p2) of serve pts won. To decide whether the change of rule
hurts or helps a player we need to figure out as to how p*p1 + (1-p)*p2 compares to
max (p*p1, p2). Needless to say p*p1+(1-p)*p2 is always larger than p*p1. Also, as long as
p1 is greater than p2 (which will be the case for almost all players), again p*p1 + (1-p)*p2
will be larger than p2. So, in principle it will be bad for all players. But, that is no brainer and
we don't really need all these algebra.

The real question is how much a player will suffer due to change of rule. In other words,
while all players would be negatively affected, some players would be affected a lot and
some very less.

So, let me just do a typical example. Let us take a power server who is fairly accurate.
Say he lands 60% of first serves in and wins 90% of them when it lands in. Let us say
he has a poor second serve and wins only 40% of points off the second serve. Then
as .60*.90=.54. and 0.40*.40 = .16. Before the rule change this player will be winning
(.54 + .16 = .70) 70% of points. After the rule change, he is better off using his first
serve as the lone serve and he would win only 54%. That is a 26% reduction.

Let us take a server who does not have very good first serve. Let us say he lands
50% of them in, but wins only 80% of them. But his second serve is quite decent
and wins 60% of them. Then his previous percentage of serve points won would
be - .50*.80 + .50*.60 = .70. Now, after the rule change if he uses his first serve
as the lone serve, he wins 40%. But if he uses his second serve as the lone serve
then he wins 60%. So, he is better off using his second serve as the lone serve.
His performance would go down from 70% to 60%. So, it is 14% reduction.

This rule change will negatively impact all players obviously. However, the
impact on players with a reliable second serve is much less than the impact
on players with a bad second serve, but a good first serve.

Rafa is one of the leaders in percentage of points won off his second serve.
No wonder, he supports this rule change. The impact on his serve points
won will be less, but it will negatively impact to a much larger extent on
people who have good first serve and bad second serve.
A lot of mathematics here. Does the asterisk represent a fraction?
 
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Front242

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Stop making accusations. Tons of people also believe that Federer gets coaching not only from his coaches but also his wife. Of course Nadal is amazingly talented and great at adapting, when Federer wins 2 slams on each surface let me know. But he won't cause he can't adapt, he's just a fast surface player.

Fast surface player lol? You realize that besides Dubai, Cinci and Halle pretty much the whole rest of the tournaments played are nowhere near fast, right?! Only 1 of those is a masters event also meaning he has the liberty of zero fast courts besides the AO last 2 years. If the courts weren't so godawfully slow there's no chance Nadal would be able to return the likes of Kevin Anderson's serve from New Jersey at the USO. Look how often he's been aced out of Wimbledon on the pathetic slow grass. A lot more than so called Mr. I can play on fast courts only Federer and it'd be way worse if they actually were fast courts. Please never stop entertaining us all here. Your factually 100% wrong posts are priceless gems.

Also your claim about Mirka supposedly coaching Federer is hilarious. Anytime the camera zooms in on her it's usually 'cos he's hit a horrific error and she has her hands over her face. Amazing coaching. Uncle phoney on the other hand is notorious for it and you know it.

I've never once heard a commentator mention Federer was receiving illegal coaching but heard it countless times that Toni was coaching the supposedly amazing adapter Wafa who can't figure things out on court without help. Nice try.
 
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Horsa

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A lot of mathematics here. Does the asterisk represent a fraction?
I know you weren't talking to me but thought I'd help out here. The asterisk is used as the multiplication sign on computers.
 

DarthFed

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Irony lost on you that these are exactly the guys that grass would favor? (Except Darcis, maybe...who even remembers him?) Makes a bit little of your bad grass argument.

It favors them more than other surfaces. It doesn't mean any of those listed are close to being world beaters.
 

Federberg

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Stop making accusations. Tons of people also believe that Federer gets coaching not only from his coaches but also his wife. Of course Nadal is amazingly talented and great at adapting, when Federer wins 2 slams on each surface let me know. But he won't cause he can't adapt, he's just a fast surface player.
I haven't been paying much attention to tennis threads for some time, but I confess I saw this..."Tons of people" seems so much like Trump's "everyone is saying".... fake news! :lol3:
 
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atttomole

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I know you weren't talking to me but thought I'd help out here. The asterisk is used as the multiplication sign on computers.
Thanks. That should make things clearer.
 

mrzz

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I know you weren't talking to me but thought I'd help out here. The asterisk is used as the multiplication sign on computers.

My friend, he was being extremely ironic. It was a very good joke in fact... if someone cannot even tell the division from the multiplication sign, how in the world he would understand the rest of GSM's post?
 

Jelenafan

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My friend, he was being extremely ironic. It was a very good joke in fact... if someone cannot even tell the division from the multiplication sign, how in the world he would understand the rest of GSM's post?

Alas around here the irony usually whizzes by unnoticed most of the time...
 

GameSetAndMath

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Too childish now, for my taste. Sorry to have imagined we could have a reasonable back-and-forth. You win for petty, and let's not pretend I wasn't trying. :lulz2:

I have no idea what you are talking about. You go atp website, click on stats, and then select stats leaderboard. Click on the column header for % of points won on 1st serve. It will order the players based on that. Ralph is at #58. Click on the column header for % of points won on 2nd serve. It will order the players based on that. Ralph is at #1.

I was not sure whether my links were working correctly and still am not sure if I capture the URL after clicking on a particular column whether it present the new view or old view.

You were unfairly accusing of deleting a piece of data that does not support my view, whereas in fact both support my view.

Then you were accusing me of being childish, when you are the one being childish.
 

Moxie

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That is a bad analysis. The first serve won % that the article uses is the percentage of points won by the player when the first serve lands in. In other words, it is referring to p1 in my analysis post above. So, it does not really represent the real situation. It is amazing that ATP makes such a blunder in analyzing the situation and you also merely quote without realizing the blunder.

He is able to win 81% when first serve lands in because he can afford to go big without worrying whether it lands in. If the second serve is eliminated, he does not have that safety and so it will come down. But, even if that remains same, they forgot to factor in the % of times the serve lands in, which is a crucial factor.
TBH, I don't think a math formula really explains how this would work in tennis terms. If they change the rule, then everything changes, and I still think that confident players, big servers and placement servers would do best. I don't see how that doesn't favor Roger. And Novak, frankly, who has really improved his serve placement. I do see how it works well for Rafa, for what it's worth, by encouraging rallies. I think they sufferers would be the guys who rely on serve, and the weak servers. But keeping the game from being a one-and-done has long been the object of those who hold sway on the game. Let's face it, while the occasional ace is thrilling and satisfying, too many are boring.
 

GameSetAndMath

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TBH, I don't think a math formula really explains how this would work in tennis terms. If they change the rule, then everything changes, and I still think that confident players, big servers and placement servers would do best. I don't see how that doesn't favor Roger. And Novak, frankly, who has really improved his serve placement. I do see how it works well for Rafa, for what it's worth, by encouraging rallies. I think they sufferers would be the guys who rely on serve, and the weak servers. But keeping the game from being a one-and-done has long been the object of those who hold sway on the game. Let's face it, while the occasional ace is thrilling and satisfying, too many are boring.

The article you posted simply adds the % points won on first serve (when it lands in) to % of first serve return points won and uses that to project that Federer will win even more if the two serve rule is changed to one serve. This is probably the most egregious use of stat that
I had seen in an article on tennis from atp website. The article completely ignores the fact that not all first serves land in and so if there
is only one serve, Fed won't be winning 81%. Using that figure is completely horrible.

One does not have to be a math major to realize this. Anybody who does not suffer from innumeracy would immediately realize that the article totally misuses the stats.
 

Moxie

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Obviously, Roger, nor any other player, would have the same serve stats if they were only offered one. But don't you agree that certain types of servers are clearly going to do better than others, should this random and not likely change occur? Surely great first servers and spot servers and confident servers would do better. That is not rocket science, or higher math. The problem with the formulae that you and others espouse is that it includes the 2nd serve. I know you want to work with what exists, but if the 2nd serve ceases to exist, everything changes.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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Obviously, Roger, nor any other player, would have the same serve stats if they were only offered one. .

You are still missing the main point. Even assuming that Roger's serve stats does not change a bit (when offered only one serve), the article is blatantly wrong. Roger wins 80.2% of points when his first serve lands in. But his first serve lands in only 62% of time. Hence, even if Roger's serving is not affected a bit by the change of rule, his % of points won on serve will not be 80.2%, but instead will be 0.62 * 80.2 = 49.73%. This is the egregious error that the article is making. Just directly using the 80.2% to come up with wrong conclusions.
 

Moxie

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You are still missing the main point. Even assuming that Roger's serve stats does not change a bit (when offered only one serve), the article is blatantly wrong. Roger wins 80.2% of points when his first serve lands in. But his first serve lands in only 62% of time. Hence, even if Roger's serving is not affected a bit by the change of rule, his % of points won on serve will not be 80.2%, but instead will be 0.62 * 80.2 = 49.73%. This is the egregious error that the article is making. Just directly using the 80.2% to come up with wrong conclusions.
Excuse me, but, again, isn't your formula based on statistics that include the notion of a 2nd serve? I would suggest that this is where math doesn't serve as well as prose, since it's a completely fanciful and projected parallel universe, which got one of its legs cut off. Your p2. I say stop gazing at your mathematical navel and look at what you know about tennis. :)