Most complete player ever - Djokovic or Federer

Moxie

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Moxie, you are correct to bring Rafael into the discussion. I think his four hand is better than that of Novak and when clicking is as good as that of Roger, but I think the four head of Roger is more of a weapon at any given moment in time in a rally historically. I think his backend is not as good as that of Novak, but it is better than that of Roger. His service is worse than both of the other two. His return of serve is weaker than the other two as well. This valley is equal to that of Roger if not better in my view. I realize that is A point of contention with some people. His overhead is probably close to being that of Roger and it is certainly better than that of no back in my view. So, he definitely is up there.
Thanks, Shawn. I do think Rafa deserves to be in this discussion. He and Roger have 2 of the best FHs in the game. Djokovic has the great BH, but Rafa's BH is great, when on. It's sometimes his better shot, of late. His serve is much weaker than Fed's and Novak's, but he has improved it, and placement is becoming a weapon. Certainly he's never DF'd away championship points, which Novak has done, 3x against Nadal alone. I don't think that Rafa's volley is better than Roger's, though comparable, but it's reliable when he uses it as a finishing shot, as is his overhead smash, which can be very great. Perhaps his backwards smash is better. Djokovic's smash can be cringe-worthy. Djokovic can be very deft at the net, or a disaster. And I still think that Rafa and Roger are mentally stronger than Djokovic, who has always demonstrated fragility, unless he's just running away with the field.
 

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Moxie, you are correct to bring Rafael into the discussion. I think his four hand is better than that of Novak and when clicking is as good as that of Roger, but I think the four head of Roger is more of a weapon at any given moment in time in a rally historically. I think his backend is not as good as that of Novak, but it is better than that of Roger. His service is worse than both of the other two. His return of serve is weaker than the other two as well. This valley is equal to that of Roger if not better in my view. I realize that is A point of contention with some people. His overhead is probably close to being that of Roger and it is certainly better than that of no back in my view. So, he definitely is up there.

The auto-correct performed a piece of art on your post...

This is a long discussion, but not only I understand but I also can live with the idea that Djokovic is the most complete player ever. It all depends on what you call "complete".
 

GameSetAndMath

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The auto-correct performed a piece of art on your post...

The mythological Spanish God Rafa has four hands and a bad back end (most people actually think his back end is quite good)
and rules a valley. :lulz2:
 

Moxie

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The mythological Spanish God Rafa has four hands and a bad back end (most people actually think his back end is quite good)
and rules a valley. :lulz2:
His back end is indeed very picturesque, and far superior to the scrawny ones of Fed and Djoker. Which is likely why he calls attention to it. :D
 

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I also don't see why Rafa doesn't go into the mix of this. He has many aspects of his game that are finer than Djokovic's, and some equal or better than Fed's.

Because he's not as complete as the other two. Not trying to be cute with that comment by the way, I'm being serious. I think it's easy to rule out Rafa from the "most complete ever" conversation. The serve is the obvious flaw in his game to point out, as is his relative lack of variety compared to someone like Roger (I think most of us would agree Federer is the benchmark for completeness). Of course, one could easily point out to how Nadal, when he's had his best years, had developed his all-around game, and you'd be right. But competent volleys and an underrated lefty serve pale in comparison to an all time great serve and excellent, versatile volleying (Federer). That's just two obvious aspects to point out. Roger has a much better slice, more variety, adapts his game to different surfaces better (not that Nadal hasn't adapted), etc...

I know you're not saying Rafa IS the most complete ever, but rather, wondering why he isn't in the conversation, but I think he's not in the conversation because it's easy to shoot down his case.
 

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Yes, if you relate "variety" to "completeness", then it is hard to argue against Federer. He has all the shots and everyone knows that. But in general I believe people are thinking more of "less cracks in the armour", and the Djokovic of 2011 and 2014/2015 had virtually zero of those. His game was more "homogeneous" and I am sure people are equating this to completeness.
 
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brokenshoelace

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Yes, if you relate "variety" to "completeness", then it is hard to argue against Federer. He has all the shots and everyone know that. But in general I believe people are thinking more of "less cracks in the armour", and the Djokovic of 2011 and 2014/2015 had virtually zero of those. His game was more "homogeneous" and I am sure people are equating this to completeness.

I agree, and this is what I posted about this when this thread was first created:

"Djokovic is the most complete baseliner ever. Federer is the most complete player. Can't say Novak is flat out more complete when he lacks Fed's variety. And, in order not to state this in vague terms, let me specify what variety is: Fed has a better slice, better touch, better volleys, better forward movement, better overheads, and better drop shots (though Novak's droppers are quite good). Of course, most importantly, and this can't be understated enough, Federer has a much, much better serve. However, if we strictly look at this from a baseline perspective, then I believe Novak at his best is more solid than Roger ever was, even in his prime. His offensive onslaught might not be on par with Roger's 2006 heyday, but it doesn't need to be, because nobody in history is as unshakable as Djokovic is off of both wings, and nobody in history has as good a transition game (defense to offense and vice versa, not even Nadal). The backhand is the biggest difference maker here since Novak's is obviously miles better, and I think Novak's rally forehand is one of the most underrated shots in history so there's that. Add in a Martian return and you've got the perfect baseline game.One thing I will say though, is the OP is right. Federer's biggest weakness is more easily exploitable than Novak, especially with the way the game is played today. If tennis were still played like it was in the 90's or early 00's, then this might not be such an issue. But this IS a baseline game first and foremost, so having an exploitable backhand is a huge deal.

So, I'll put it this way: Novak has more weaknesses, if we're looking at sheer quantity. However, having a shaky overhead, average slice, and an iffy net game, while occasionally costly, aren't as big of a deal as having an exploitable backhand in today's game. In fact, even if you combine Novak's weaknesses into one, and compare it to Federer's, I'd still argue that Roger's would be considered a bigger weakness, or at least, in the context of a tennis match, more likely to lead to a loss over a particular stretch of the match."
 

Moxie

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Yes, if you relate "variety" to "completeness", then it is hard to argue against Federer. He has all the shots and everyone know that. But in general I believe people are thinking more of "less cracks in the armour", and the Djokovic of 2011 and 2014/2015 had virtually zero of those. His game was more "homogeneous" and I am sure people are equating this to completeness.
I would never think to define "completeness" as "fewer cracks in the armor," but if some people are using that as a definition, then at least that explains how someone thinks there's an argument.
 

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I just looked at the date on this thread and saw that it's from 2015. I'm confused about the creators definition of "complete player." My definition of a "complete player" is one who can, and does, do anything - play any style at any time and from anywhere on the court regardless of the surface. There's only 1 guy who fits that description - and has been the only one who fit that description for close to 2 decades. Doesn't mean Djokovic isn't a great player - but he isn't a "complete player." Sure, he can volley on the rare trips he takes to he net (his overhead sucks though!) - but he's a baseliner not a "complete player." And even then it's a toss up as to whether he's a more "complete baseliner" than Nadal. I do feel that Djokovic always gets short-shrift in these kinds of discussions...but...he ain't a more "complete player" than Federer.
 
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Shivashish Sarkar

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I think Roger's variety should win him the title.

Everyone knows his flat aggressive game, sometimes from the baseline, sometimes punching forward. He can do good things at the net. He has different smashes. He can play defense and retrieve some balls. He has shown that from time to time altho he doesn't try to play that game a lot as he doesn't need to (he has had the best aggressive game). His defensive slice is so good. He has the passes. He has an effective serve which blends beautifully with his groundstroke game in terms of the surprise element, mix, thought, trajectory, placement and spin. It's a thing of beauty. Against lesser players, on a day when he lands below par percentage of first serves, he nearly totally makes up for it using his naughty and troublesome second serve.

Roger played well on all surfaces for a long time. It was no more the case only when his clay game dropped around 2013 So, that's up till the age of 31 which is another testimony of his versatility.

Novak's game might have been more consistent results-wise and more solid in a match.think he really likes to bring rallies into his comfort zone and thereby, ace it. He is so good at his business. But, that's integrity IMHO. Versatility is really how big your bag of tricks is. More or less.

So, if versatility would imply completeness, which makes sense to me, Federer deserves to be called the most complete player of the last 15 years, at least.
 
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Shivashish Sarkar

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My take on Big 3's completeness:

Federer>Djokovic>Nadal

That is not to say that Rafa is not a great player. He sure is. The thing is, he couldn't remain an elite on grass post 2011 (age of 25) That's a big drawback so far.
 

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My take on Big 3's completeness:

Federer>Djokovic>Nadal

That is not to say that Rafa is not a great player. He sure is. The thing is, he couldn't remain an elite on grass post 2011 (age of 25) That's a big drawback so far.
Rafa’s serve and return of Serve is what sets him behind Roger but he should be well ahead of Novak ranking on this poll/thread. Rafa is a superior net player whereas Novak is below average.
 

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Rafa’s serve and return of Serve is what sets him behind Roger but he should be well ahead of Novak ranking on this poll/thread. Rafa is a superior net player whereas Novak is below average.

Well, yes, in one sense Rafa's game is complete in that he does nothing too poorly. But, there's a problem. He loses a lot of venom on indoor and grass thus indicating his apparent inability to effect an aggressive game. On those courts, he looks to moonball a lot and gets overpowered by proactive aggressive players more often.

But techinically, Rafa really doesn't have anything that looks crappy or even bad. Personally, I feel Rafa's serve tends to go a bit underrated. Barring really slick courts and bad form, I think Rafa's a very cerebral server who strategises his placement and spin well. And his serve can be a big headache when in form. That spin causes ultimate mayhem.
 
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the AntiPusher

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Well, yes, in one sense Rafa's game is complete in that he does nothing too poorly. But, there's a problem. He loses a lot of venom on indoor and grass thus indicating his apparent inability to effect an aggressive game. On those courts, he looks to moonball a lot and gets overpowered by proactive aggressive players more often.

But techinically, Rafa really doesn't have anything that looks crappy or even bad. Personally, I feel Rafa's serve tends to go a bit underrated. Barring really slick courts and bad form, I think Rafa's a very cerebral server who strategises his placement and spin well. And his serve can be a big headache when in form. That spin causes ultimate mayhem.
Good points about Rafa’s serve. I agree he is a bit cerebral server but this is where his serve is a bit of a hindrance. Rafa’s serve is way too low in mph. Also if he misses his spot with his first serve , then his 2nd is a sitting duck and the book on Rafa is to pound that living crap out of it.
 

The_Grand_Slam

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Always wondered what happened to the Nadal serve from the US Open 2010. Nobody ever really seemed to provide a satisfactory answer.

I heard from a poster on another forum that it gave him shoulder troubles.No legit source about it though
 
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Federberg

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Well, yes, in one sense Rafa's game is complete in that he does nothing too poorly. But, there's a problem. He loses a lot of venom on indoor and grass thus indicating his apparent inability to effect an aggressive game. On those courts, he looks to moonball a lot and gets overpowered by proactive aggressive players more often.

But techinically, Rafa really doesn't have anything that looks crappy or even bad. Personally, I feel Rafa's serve tends to go a bit underrated. Barring really slick courts and bad form, I think Rafa's a very cerebral server who strategises his placement and spin well. And his serve can be a big headache when in form. That spin causes ultimate mayhem.

I agree with this. Also Rafa's overhead smash is money
 

Moxie

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I heard from a poster on another forum that it gave him shoulder troubles.No legit source about it though
I've heard the same. Also, more recently that it disturbed his rhythm as the ball came back too quickly and gave him less time to work the point, so he wasn't comfortable with it.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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Always wondered what happened to the Nadal serve from the US Open 2010. Nobody ever really seemed to provide a satisfactory answer.

There was a person who was hired as a consultant by Rafa's team in 2010. This person claims to be the architect of Rafa's improved serve at 2010. I have posted a video of his coaching of Rafa in older forums. However, there was a serious dispute that arose between him and Rafa's camp. This person feels that he is not given sufficient credit for his role in the success of Rafa at USO 2010. He did not (at least publicly) say that his grievance is about financial compensation. Anyway, he left/got fired by Rafa's camp. There may have been a law suit by him against Rafa's Team as well.

But, none of these can probably be the reason that Rafa stopped that serve, although it is possible.
 

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I've heard the same. Also, more recently that it disturbed his rhythm as the ball came back too quickly and gave him less time to work the point, so he wasn't comfortable with it.

So basically he was robbing himself of time...and we all know how Nadal hates it when he doesn't have enough time for his shots or his routine is disturbed.