Most complete player ever - Djokovic or Federer

[Billie]

Are you really that stupid?

LOL no he just can't stand Nole or his fans, that's all. He was a member before on the old boards. Fed and his fans should be happy that Fed managed to win so many slams between 2004 and 2007, before Rafa really became a threat on all surfaces. And of course Fed has been a wash up since 2009, when he suddenly started losing more and more, to Rafa and then Nole. Never mind that another player at the age of 28 soon to become 29 is considered in his prime. I guess Fed peaked too early.

This reminds me of the things being said in 2011. Nole had only 4 slams by the time the majors were done that year and you should have seen what offence Fed fans took even by mere suggestion that Nole would do well and win more or could even threaten the "beloved one" in future. It was such a big difference in # of slams won as if Nole could make up the difference in 1 year. The same with H2H. It takes time to catch up when you have a negative H2H. But he is getting closer so they are getting more restless.

 

[Billie]

So the H2H could be broken in 2 parts: first when Federer was in his prime and much better player than Nole, from the first time they met in 2006 till the beginning of 2011: 13:6 for Fed (got first 4 meetings before Nole even managed 1 in 2007). Then from 2011 H2H looks like this: 17:9 (so Nole doesn't have a negative head to head during this period).

Even more details:

• All matches: Djokovic 23–22
  • Grand Slam matches: Djokovic, 9–6
  • ATP World Tour Finals matches: Djokovic 3–2
  • ATP World Tour Masters 1000 matches: Tied 9–9
  • Best of three set matches: Federer, 15–14
  • Best of five set matches: Djokovic, 9–7
  • Matches lasting five sets: Djokovic, 3–0
  • Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1

• All finals: Djokovic, 11–6
  • Grand Slam finals: Djokovic, 3–1
  • ATP World Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 2–0
  • ATP World Tour Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 4–3
  • ATP World Tour 500 series finals: Tied, 2–2

• All sets: Federer, 69–63
  • Deciding sets: Djokovic, 12–5

• Tiebreak sets: Federer, 12–10
  • Deciding Tiebreaks: Djokovic, 3–1

 

[Rides]

Thats too easy. Fed got a ton of wins over baby Novak at the start when he was in his prime. You should know that.

Novak was in the US Open final in 2007. He won the Aus Open in 2008. So you are right, leading up to those events Roger held a 5-2 lead over him. Any player who reaches a Slam final (let alone win one) can hardly be called a baby. And a 3 win margin is hardly a 'ton of wins'.

Try again.

 

[DarthFed]

LOL no he just can't stand Nole or his fans, that's all. He was a member before on the old boards. Fed and his fans should be happy that Fed managed to win so many slams between 2004 and 2007, before Rafa really became a threat on all surfaces. And of course Fed has been a wash up since 2009, when he suddenly started losing more and more, to Rafa and then Nole. Never mind that another player at the age of 28 soon to become 29 is considered in his prime. I guess Fed peaked too early.

This reminds me of the things being said in 2011. Nole had only 4 slams by the time the majors were done that year and you should have seen what offence Fed fans took even by mere suggestion that Nole would do well and win more or could even threaten the "beloved one" in future. It was such a big difference in # of slams won as if Nole could make up the difference in 1 year. The same with H2H. It takes time to catch up when you have a negative H2H. But he is getting closer so they are getting more restless.

Players can and do peak at different times. Nole peaked later than Roger did and WAY later than Rafa did. And I'd say Nole fans should be happy right now and probably are given that a 34 year old with 4 kids who rarely plays well anymore seems to be the best competition for Nole. Outside of that you have a badly washed up Rafa and the likes of Murray and Wawrinka. Not exactly death row as far as competition goes no?

 

[DarthFed]

So the H2H could be broken in 2 parts: first when Federer was in his prime and much better player than Nole, from the first time they met in 2006 till the beginning of 2011: 13:6 for Fed (got first 4 meetings before Nole even managed 1 in 2007). Then from 2011 H2H looks like this: 17:9 (so Nole doesn't have a negative head to head during this period).

Even more details:

• All matches: Djokovic 23–22
  • Grand Slam matches: Djokovic, 9–6
  • ATP World Tour Finals matches: Djokovic 3–2
  • ATP World Tour Masters 1000 matches: Tied 9–9
  • Best of three set matches: Federer, 15–14
  • Best of five set matches: Djokovic, 9–7
  • Matches lasting five sets: Djokovic, 3–0
  • Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1

• All finals: Djokovic, 11–6
  • Grand Slam finals: Djokovic, 3–1
  • ATP World Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 2–0
  • ATP World Tour Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 4–3
  • ATP World Tour 500 series finals: Tied, 2–2

• All sets: Federer, 69–63
  • Deciding sets: Djokovic, 12–5

• Tiebreak sets: Federer, 12–10
  • Deciding Tiebreaks: Djokovic, 3–1

2010 was pretty neutral ground as Roger's game fell off a cliff and had embarrassing losses at slams to Soderling, Berdych, and WTA-serving Nole. Even if you include 2010 as prime Roger you still have 26 matches since 2011 vs. 19 before it. With that disparity Novak should have a huge H2H lead.

 

[ClayDeath]

nobody really gives a damn who is the most perfect player. it is for the idle buffoons in the press and the media.

borg had unorthodox strokes and owned the planet.

rafa had a limited game and unorthodox strokes and he ruled the whole world. he would also own clay for a decade.

so you don't need to be a perfect player. and you don't even need a complete game.




.

 

[britbox]

nobody really gives a damn who is the most perfect player. it is for the idle buffoons in the press and the media.

borg had unorthodox strokes and owned the planet.

rafa had a limited game and unorthodox strokes and he ruled the whole world. he would also own clay for a decade.

so you don't need to be a perfect player. and you don't even need a complete game.




.

Lot of truth in that. Often players with an all round game can get blown away by a guy with one or two bigger weapons.

Ivo Karlovic reached #14 in the rankings and is still Top #50 now... and if completeness was situated at the equator, he'd be foraging for snails in Iceland.

 

[Ricardo]

Are you really that stupid?

don't start moaning just because Djokovic can't have a winning H-H until 2016. now judging by who you chose as the greatest 7 players, i'd say it's beyond stupid, you'd be checked for mental retardation a lot huh?

 

[Ricardo]

LOL no he just can't stand Nole or his fans, that's all. He was a member before on the old boards. Fed and his fans should be happy that Fed managed to win so many slams between 2004 and 2007, before Rafa really became a threat on all surfaces. And of course Fed has been a wash up since 2009, when he suddenly started losing more and more, to Rafa and then Nole. Never mind that another player at the age of 28 soon to become 29 is considered in his prime. I guess Fed peaked too early.

This reminds me of the things being said in 2011. Nole had only 4 slams by the time the majors were done that year and you should have seen what offence Fed fans took even by mere suggestion that Nole would do well and win more or could even threaten the "beloved one" in future. It was such a big difference in # of slams won as if Nole could make up the difference in 1 year. The same with H2H. It takes time to catch up when you have a negative H2H. But he is getting closer so they are getting more restless.

you are wrong in that i can't stand Nole, i'd pay (and i did) to watch him play but you are right, Djokovic fans are an obnoxious and blind bunch of idiots (very high % of them); no disrespect intended, it's a fact....

actually you should be happy Nole timed it just right to have his best ever season when Fedal are both past it, or go ahead and debate that they are still in their prime. you said in another post that you hope nobody rise in the next 2 years to challenge Nole, i see how you think... let's hope everyone just lies down so Nole can rack up some records, as if 2015 wasn't enough.

 

[DarthFed]

Lot of truth in that. Often players with an all round game can get blown away by a guy with one or two bigger weapons.

Ivo Karlovic reached #14 in the rankings and is still Top #50 now... and if completeness was situated at the equator, he'd be foraging for snails in Iceland.

The flip side is that if Rafa had a more complete game he'd be doing better right now. It's never a bad thing to have a lot of options even if you have a couple dominant qualities. That's the difference between Roger and Rafa right now. They've both lost a lot of their movement and endurance but those are more important for Rafa because Roger had a lot to fall back on.

 

[britbox]

^ Kind off... a bit of chicken and the egg.. In many respects physicality, movement and endurance were some of Rafa's biggest weapons and they're looking blunt. If we look at some of Fed's biggest weapons, like the serve then it's bailed him out on numerous occasions.

 

[ClayDeath]

Lot of truth in that. Often players with an all round game can get blown away by a guy with one or two bigger weapons.

Ivo Karlovic reached #14 in the rankings and is still Top #50 now... and if completeness was situated at the equator, he'd be foraging for snails in Iceland.

well said and articulated.


it doesn't even matter what you as long as you do it really well and can perform in the clutch.


to take it a step further, you don't even need to win a match to win a match. just win the key/clutch points and you come away with a victory.

you can lose majority of the points and still walk away with a victory. such is the beauty of our sport.

 

[britbox]

@Billie mentioned this in the Nole's world forum, but thought it was worth adding here...

Laver: As far as greatness goes, Djokovic is now Federer's equal

"I don't think you put one of those two above the other when you look at their performances," the 77-year-old Australian told ESPN.com. "You know what Roger's record is. But the way that Djokovic has been playing over the last year or so, I would say that Djokovic and Federer are equals.

"When you look at Djokovic's performances and his results, you just have to say, 'Hey, this guy's unbelievable, and how can you look past him when discussing who is the best ever?'"

Full Story: http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016...okovic-now-federers-equal/58371/#.Vyxw4fl97q4

Laver also thinks Federer can still win another major:

"Wimbledon inspires Roger," Laver told ESPN.com. "If he's going to win another Grand Slam, his best chance is at Wimbledon. The tournament inspires him a tremendous amount. He can also play well at the U.S. Open. It's definitely possible he can win another one."

 

[Ricardo]

@Billie mentioned this in the Nole's world forum, but thought it was worth adding here...

Laver: As far as greatness goes, Djokovic is now Federer's equal

"I don't think you put one of those two above the other when you look at their performances," the 77-year-old Australian told ESPN.com. "You know what Roger's record is. But the way that Djokovic has been playing over the last year or so, I would say that Djokovic and Federer are equals.

"When you look at Djokovic's performances and his results, you just have to say, 'Hey, this guy's unbelievable, and how can you look past him when discussing who is the best ever?'"

Full Story: http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016...okovic-now-federers-equal/58371/#.Vyxw4fl97q4

Laver also thinks Federer can still win another major:

"Wimbledon inspires Roger," Laver told ESPN.com. "If he's going to win another Grand Slam, his best chance is at Wimbledon. The tournament inspires him a tremendous amount. He can also play well at the U.S. Open. It's definitely possible he can win another one."

Fair point, as old times always used to see winning the Grand Slam as true measure of greatness and both have gone within one match short of winning it. But Djoker will have the fortune of not facing any all timer in his prime, whereas Fed did have to go through Rafa, who was already a clay monster winning everything on clay. Actually i don't think one-legged Rafa would be the biggest obstacle for Djoker, but someone else with a big game who plays well and tough on the day might be the most dangerous.

 

[Billie]

@Billie mentioned this in the Nole's world forum, but thought it was worth adding here...

Laver: As far as greatness goes, Djokovic is now Federer's equal

"I don't think you put one of those two above the other when you look at their performances," the 77-year-old Australian told ESPN.com. "You know what Roger's record is. But the way that Djokovic has been playing over the last year or so, I would say that Djokovic and Federer are equals.

"When you look at Djokovic's performances and his results, you just have to say, 'Hey, this guy's unbelievable, and how can you look past him when discussing who is the best ever?'"

Full Story: http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016...okovic-now-federers-equal/58371/#.Vyxw4fl97q4

Laver also thinks Federer can still win another major:

"Wimbledon inspires Roger," Laver told ESPN.com. "If he's going to win another Grand Slam, his best chance is at Wimbledon. The tournament inspires him a tremendous amount. He can also play well at the U.S. Open. It's definitely possible he can win another one."

I thought that it is interesting because Laver touches the level of performances, rather than the achievements. They are not done with achieving so nobody knows about that. I was also surprised by his words as he was not so complementary about Nole's game in past. But if a player keeps winning, the recognition eventually comes; simple as that.

 

[britbox]

Toni Nadal thinks Djokovic of two years ago was the most complete ever.

 

[shawnbm]

^ very hard to say. His service is not as good as Roger and never has been. His forehand is not as much of a weapon. His overhead is inferior, as is his play at the net. Novak is a better backhand player and his return of service is only equaled, if at all, by Connors and Agassi. So, I question Toni on this bit who am I? Lol

 

[Moxie]

I've never understood how Djokovic could be seen as a more "complete" player than Federer. I always think there's a lot of hyperbole when a player is riding high. As to Toni, he likely sees things from his perspective: Djokovic's game was tougher for Rafa to combat, so that's either prejudice or PR. There's also always the question of if we're talking "overall" or in a specific period of time. But still, I've never seen Novak's game as having more tools than Roger's. I think you nailed a lot of them, @shawnbm. Another aspect is the mental game. I think Roger basically lives with a certain confidence about his game. Djokovic needs it from a running start, or he can fall apart, a little, or, as in the last year+, a lot.

 

[Moxie]

I also don't see why Rafa doesn't go into the mix of this. He has many aspects of his game that are finer than Djokovic's, and some equal or better than Fed's.

 

[shawnbm]

Moxie, you are correct to bring Rafael into the discussion. I think his four hand is better than that of Novak and when clicking is as good as that of Roger, but I think the four head of Roger is more of a weapon at any given moment in time in a rally historically. I think his backend is not as good as that of Novak, but it is better than that of Roger. His service is worse than both of the other two. His return of serve is weaker than the other two as well. This valley is equal to that of Roger if not better in my view. I realize that is A point of contention with some people. His overhead is probably close to being that of Roger and it is certainly better than that of no back in my view. So, he definitely is up there.