MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
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I was thinking of Robin Soderling when Tossip posted above about him not caring about ATP Bromances. Soderling always said he wasn't on the tour to make friends. Johnny Mac was a general-purposes bad boy. I always wonder if the ones willing to wear the black hat, (and Holger does seem to be one,) will feel less so when they reach big heights and have an image to protect. I'm willing to take Holger as a work-in-progess on the bad boy thing. Frankly, I did think he stood up to an antagonizing crowd very well, for a 19-year-old. Did he antagonize them? Yes, he did. Did he feed off the negative energy, a la McEnroe and Medvedev (at the USOpen a few years back)? Likewise. Say what you will...it was entertaining.A tennis journalist friend of mine texted me and asked
Is Rune the Modern Day version of Johnny Mac"
I texted back
He has a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way
Medvedev is an outlier. And as I said, every player is different - so I account for younger guys also "breaking the curve."I agree with your first part of this statement. I do think that both Alcaraz and potentially Rune will have a better athlete explosiveness than Sinner. Talent is debatable, but I can see both sides of the coin.
The 2nd second part, I completely disagree. So, you are telling me that Sinner is who only 1.8 years older than Alcaraz and Rune will have more development and maturation than Sinner?! Then, in that case Medvedev should have not become a better player than both Tsitsipas and Zverev because he is older than both them.
And we all know how "entertaining" and "demonstrative" pro Italian player crowds can be....I was thinking of Robin Soderling when Tossip posted above about him not caring about ATP Bromances. Soderling always said he wasn't on the tour to make friends. Johnny Mac was a general-purposes bad boy. I always wonder if the ones willing to wear the black hat, (and Holger does seem to be one,) will feel less so when they reach big heights and have an image to protect. I'm willing to take Holger as a work-in-progess on the bad boy thing. Frankly, I did think he stood up to an antagonizing crowd very well, for a 19-year-old. Did he antagonize them? Yes, he did. Did he feed off the negative energy, a la McEnroe and Medvedev (at the USOpen a few years back)? Likewise. Say what you will...it was entertaining.
It's a fair point, statistically, but take this into account: Rune and Alcaraz seem to have mostly finished growing, by which I mean height and build. (I could be wrong about that, but both have filled out muscularly, which implies they won't grow much taller.) They don't call Sinner the Italian string bean for nothing. If he's taking time to mature physically, that could also inform performance. Plus, he's got a good head. Alcaraz does, too. Rune is a bit of a live wire. I go with @rafanoy1992 on the idea that he may be a few more years from peak. He's been improving a lot under Cahill.Medvedev is an outlier. And as I said, every player is different - so I account for younger guys also "breaking the curve."
But...there's a general pattern of aging and maturation that holds true in a majority of cases. And more to the point: A 22 year old is typically closer to their peak form than a 20 year old is. That's my main point in terms of comparing Sinner, Rune, and Alcaraz. I don't think it is crazy to think that we're closer to "peak Sinner" than we are to "peak Rune" - that Sinner is more polished and closer to "completion."
I pointed out elsewhere that Sinner's Elo trajectory is uncannily similar to Roger Federer, who was a bit slower than many/most all-time greats (certainly slower than Rafa, and even Novak) - at least in terms of getting to the stratospheric 2300 level, which is top 30 all-time. Interestingly enough, Roger actually peaked (in terms of Elo) at a younger age than Rafa: 25 (early 2007) for Roger, 27 (late 2013) for Rafa, and 28 (early 2016) for Novak. Meaning, Sinner could also be taking a slightly longer time to reach prime level than the other two - that is a possibility.
But again, the main point: 22 year olds are usually closer to prime (and peak) than 20 year olds.
I would add El Dude that most of the top players first big breakthroughs, winning a Masters, reaching a Major Finals, etc usually came by the age of 22. Even Andy Murray toiling under the shadow of the big 3 won several Masters and made a Major final by age 21.Medvedev is an outlier. And as I said, every player is different - so I account for younger guys also "breaking the curve."
But...there's a general pattern of aging and maturation that holds true in a majority of cases. And more to the point: A 22 year old is typically closer to their peak form than a 20 year old is. That's my main point in terms of comparing Sinner, Rune, and Alcaraz. I don't think it is crazy to think that we're closer to "peak Sinner" than we are to "peak Rune" - that Sinner is more polished and closer to "completion."
I pointed out elsewhere that Sinner's Elo trajectory is uncannily similar to Roger Federer, who was a bit slower than many/most all-time greats (certainly slower than Rafa, and even Novak) - at least in terms of getting to the stratospheric 2300 level, which is top 30 all-time. Interestingly enough, Roger actually peaked (in terms of Elo) at a younger age than Rafa: 25 (early 2007) for Roger, 27 (late 2013) for Rafa, and 28 (early 2016) for Novak. Meaning, Sinner could also be taking a slightly longer time to reach prime level than the other two - that is a possibility.
But again, the main point: 22 year olds are usually closer to prime (and peak) than 20 year olds.
Italy is a short spit down the road from Monte Carlo, and there were a lot of Italian fans. Of course they were rooting for Sinner. It's been cold and rainy, and the fans put up with delays, etc. (Dare I suspect there was some drinking of champagne during the delays?) I don't know what you would have expected from them. If tennis didn't want to gin up nationalistic sensibilities at matches, they could easily remove all the flags next to players' names. In most tournaments, they don't play for country, they play for themselves.And we all know how "entertaining" and "demonstrative" pro Italian player crowds can be....
Well Rune has become a ' Protected Species' at TF whatever Moxie, that is your opinion and I am entitled to mineI was thinking of Robin Soderling when Tossip posted above about him not caring about ATP Bromances. Soderling always said he wasn't on the tour to make friends. Johnny Mac was a general-purposes bad boy. I always wonder if the ones willing to wear the black hat, (and Holger does seem to be one,) will feel less so when they reach big heights and have an image to protect. I'm willing to take Holger as a work-in-progess on the bad boy thing. Frankly, I did think he stood up to an antagonizing crowd very well, for a 19-year-old. Did he antagonize them? Yes, he did. Did he feed off the negative energy, a la McEnroe and Medvedev (at the USOpen a few years back)? Likewise. Say what you will...it was entertaining.
Players improve at their own pace for starters? Jannik and Cahill have said he has a few years to peak, especially physically, the main reason he lost this match today was 'the UFE " which was his undoing, not the lack of talent, I also have said he s still a player in progress, I dont make excuses when he losesIt's a fair point, statistically, but take this into account: Rune and Alcaraz seem to have mostly finished growing, by which I mean height and build. (I could be wrong about that, but both have filled out muscularly, which implies they won't grow much taller.) They don't call Sinner the Italian string bean for nothing. If he's taking time to mature physically, that could also inform performance. Plus, he's got a good head. Alcaraz does, too. Rune is a bit of a live wire. I go with @rafanoy1992 on the idea that he may be a few more years from peak. He's been improving a lot under Cahill.
I think a lot of people have their eye on Rune because he's an incredible talent, coming up at a time when we're wondering where men's tennis goes after the Big 3. This doesn't exclude your opinion of him. We seem to have a lot of opinions of him, amongst us. He does have a champion in Jelenafan...and we're all having a lot of fun with that. (20 more years of Nordic imagery!)Well Rune has become a ' Protected Species' at TF whatever Moxie, that is your opinion and I am entitled to mine
He is an annoying teenager at times on a tennis court,!
Thanks I am allowed a opinion,.I think a lot of people have their eye on Rune because he's an incredible talent, coming up at a time when we're wondering where men's tennis goes after the Big 3. This doesn't exclude your opinion of him. We seem to have a lot of opinions of him, amongst us. He does have a champion in Jelenafan...and we're all having a lot of fun with that. (20 more years of Nordic imagery!)
Medvedev is an outlier. And as I said, every player is different - so I account for younger guys also "breaking the curve."
But...there's a general pattern of aging and maturation that holds true in a majority of cases. And more to the point: A 22 year old is typically closer to their peak form than a 20 year old is. That's my main point in terms of comparing Sinner, Rune, and Alcaraz. I don't think it is crazy to think that we're closer to "peak Sinner" than we are to "peak Rune" - that Sinner is more polished and closer to "completion."
I pointed out elsewhere that Sinner's Elo trajectory is uncannily similar to Roger Federer, who was a bit slower than many/most all-time greats (certainly slower than Rafa, and even Novak) - at least in terms of getting to the stratospheric 2300 level, which is top 30 all-time. Interestingly enough, Roger actually peaked (in terms of Elo) at a younger age than Rafa: 25 (early 2007) for Roger, 27 (late 2013) for Rafa, and 28 (early 2016) for Novak. Meaning, Sinner could also be taking a slightly longer time to reach prime level than the other two - that is a possibility.
But again, the main point: 22 year olds are usually closer to prime (and peak) than 20 year olds.
Yes, and others are allowed theirs. That's 90% of what we do around here...give our opinions. When has anyone ever denied you yours? You don't like Rune. Opinion noted.Thanks I am allowed a opinion,.
So, back to the final. Agreed that it would be huge for Rublev to take that next step. He looked a lot better today than I was expecting of him. Not sure why I don't totally embrace him, but I'd be happy for him. I expect the balls to be punished, anyway. Even if we're not treated to classic clay court tennis.I hope the final is a competitive one with no more rain, hopefully Rublev will win, he is long overdue at this level!
Did I ever say I dont like Rune? I said he was annoying? and at times I dont like his antics, I do prefer Alcaraz as a player, I feel he is at this stage he is a better player, in ways,and he is not annoying lol! and that is my opinion!Yes, and others are allowed theirs. That's 90% of what we do around here...give our opinions. When has anyone ever denied you yours? You don't like Rune. Opinion noted.
Jason Goodall is going to strain his tongue tomorrow with all the trilling of the R's.
Rune is gonna crush Kskates named da Big Haired dudeThanks I am allowed a opinion,.
While I do think he'll win, I don't think hair dude will roll over that easily. Remember Danish Angel had opportunities to win at AO this year and he uncharacteristically collapsed at the time of closing. I'm sure he's looking to atone for that outcome today. Hair dude will likely be on his horse all day. I hope he fueled up last night. I'm going out for awhile. I'll have to catch the rerun later.Rune is gonna crush Kskates named da Big Haired dude