Madrid 2013 F: Nadal vs Wawrinka

[brokenshoelace]

Thanks Broken, I like you're breakdown - convincing - and agree with most of this. Just one thing on the H2H, it obviously has a lot to do with how Djokovic improved since 2011. You're saying this too, but in terms of assessment who would win if the best version of both players would play each other, the H2H is not all that important. There is no denying that Rafa is a much better clay court player than Djokovic and owned him the vast majority of times they played on the surface. But Djokovic found something in 2011 and maybe Nadal dropped a little. So the H2H is not the best criterion to make this difficult comparison I think.

As I said, it's hard to deny that Djokovic has improved starting 2011. But again, I find a certain amount of double standards in that as well, as well as selective argumentation. Since 2011, Nadal and Djokovic are 3-3 on clay. Yet people want to disregard last year's results. So do we erase 2012 from memory?

 

[Kieran]

Yet people want to disregard last year's results. So do we erase 2012 from memory?

Don't make it too easy for them, Broken. Once you enter an elephant into a room, you force people into ignoring it. If we get back Rafa-2012 by Paris, I'll take that. He's not losing to anybody if we do...

 

[Denis]

Thanks Broken, I like you're breakdown - convincing - and agree with most of this. Just one thing on the H2H, it obviously has a lot to do with how Djokovic improved since 2011. You're saying this too, but in terms of assessment who would win if the best version of both players would play each other, the H2H is not all that important. There is no denying that Rafa is a much better clay court player than Djokovic and owned him the vast majority of times they played on the surface. But Djokovic found something in 2011 and maybe Nadal dropped a little. So the H2H is not the best criterion to make this difficult comparison I think.

As I said, it's hard to deny that Djokovic has improved starting 2011. But again, I find a certain amount of double standards in that as well, as well as selective argumentation. Since 2011, Nadal and Djokovic are 3-3 on clay. Yet people want to disregard last year's results. So do we erase 2012 from memory?

Absolutely not. I assume you are argueing against me, but I am talking about the best Djokovic can play against the best Nadal can play, and I thought it would be close, with giving Djokovic the slight edge. Not erasing 2012 at all, it's an indication how close it is between the two. I am not saying 9/10 Djokovic will win, I'd say 5/10 with a slight edge towards Djokovic. Again, I am not saying Djokovic is a better clay court player (as Nadal owns everyone else and has overwhelmingly better results, and Djokovic much less so). I am just saying in this specific matchup that matches between them are extremely competitive.

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Yet people want to disregard last year's results. So do we erase 2012 from memory?

Don't make it too easy for them, Broken. Once you enter an elephant into a room, you force people into ignoring it. If we get back Rafa-2012 by Paris, I'll take that. He's not losing to anybody if we do...

You're talking about a tiny little porcelein elephant hidden under a couch? Djokovic - Nadal is a very competitive matchup. If Nadal gets beaten by Djokovic this year at RG, and Nadal reaches his 2012 level, I hope you will be able to admit that.

 

[Kieran]

You're talking about a tiny little porcelein elephant hidden under a couch? Djokovic - Nadal is a very competitive matchup. If Nadal gets beaten by Djokovic this year at RG, and Nadal reaches his 2012 level, I hope you will be able to admit that.

A massive big tusky bull elephant.

The difference between Nadal in 2011 and 2012 is instructive: he was no longer suffering and afraid of Novak. In fact, he was prepared to take the battle to the Serb. He pitched his tents on the Nole forehand, and opened the rally discussion right up. He was hitting harder and deeper, his serve was better, he was persevering with the rallies. He frustrated Novak to the extent of two double faults on match points. He was Nadal-on-clay, the invincible and strong.

In 2011, he played well at times, but Nole was under his skin too much. Nole had him browbeaten and Nadal didn't have what he himself correctly described as 'the calm.'

If we get 2012 Nadal in 2013, then he'll Boss Novak in Paris just like he did last year...

 

[Denis]

You're talking about a tiny little porcelein elephant hidden under a couch? Djokovic - Nadal is a very competitive matchup. If Nadal gets beaten by Djokovic this year at RG, and Nadal reaches his 2012 level, I hope you will be able to admit that.

A massive big tusky bull elephant.

The difference between Nadal in 2011 and 2012 is instructive: he was no longer suffering and afraid of Novak. In fact, he was prepared to take the battle to the Serb. He pitched his tents on the Nole forehand, and opened the rally discussion right up. He was hitting harder and deeper, his serve was better, he was persevering with the rallies. He frustrated Novak to the extent of two double faults on match points. He was Nadal-on-clay, the invincible and strong.

In 2011, he played well at times, but Nole was under his skin too much. Nole had him browbeaten and Nadal didn't have what he himself correctly described as 'the calm.'

If we get 2012 Nadal in 2013, then he'll Boss Novak in Paris just like he did last year...

We shall see. I really hope we get to see a Nadal Djokovic match at RG this year. And if Djokovic is dominating Nadal again, we now know its because Nadal is wetting his pants, not because Djokovic is the better player. Or the knees, you can use that too of course. Or maybe weather conditions? Sure. Why not. But no way Djokovic can beat an in form Nadal on the merits.

 

[Kieran]

^^ You're missing the point, actually. If Novak wins it'll be because he was the better man on the day...

 

[Denis]

What am I missing then? You are saying no way Djokovic can beat an in form Nadal. If Nadal loses, it will because he didn't play his best. And you cite 'being afraid' as the reason. I wonder why you think he lost MC this year then? Rust? Knees? Afraid again?

What am I not getting here?

 

[britbox]

You're talking about a tiny little porcelein elephant hidden under a couch? Djokovic - Nadal is a very competitive matchup. If Nadal gets beaten by Djokovic this year at RG, and Nadal reaches his 2012 level, I hope you will be able to admit that.

A massive big tusky bull elephant.

The difference between Nadal in 2011 and 2012 is instructive: he was no longer suffering and afraid of Novak. In fact, he was prepared to take the battle to the Serb. He pitched his tents on the Nole forehand, and opened the rally discussion right up. He was hitting harder and deeper, his serve was better, he was persevering with the rallies. He frustrated Novak to the extent of two double faults on match points. He was Nadal-on-clay, the invincible and strong.

In 2011, he played well at times, but Nole was under his skin too much. Nole had him browbeaten and Nadal didn't have what he himself correctly described as 'the calm.'

If we get 2012 Nadal in 2013, then he'll Boss Novak in Paris just like he did last year...

2011 was more about Djokovic raising his game than Nadal. You might have missed it but he was dominating everywhere... on pretty much every surface against the entire field, including Rafa.

 

[Kieran]

I don't think that Novak can beat the best Nadal on clay, no. And over five sets, in that scenario, Novak will get one set.

If he beats him this year, he's been better than Nadal on the day. He gets the trophy.

Is Nadal affected by the seven-month lay off? Of course he is. You don't just come back from a lay-off like that and go straight to your best. But he isn't rusty. He's playing lots and he's working hard. But he's not the guy he was last year yet, that's all. Hopefully he'll get there before Paris...

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2011 was more about Djokovic raising his game than Nadal. You might have missed it but he was dominating everywhere... on pretty much every surface against the entire field, including Rafa.

I didn't miss it - I said it myself!

But last year was about Nadal adjusting to that. He wasn't shocked, upset or afraid. The change in 2012 was in Nadal...

 

[britbox]

I saw a bigger change in Djokovic last year to be honest. He didn't have the same intensity as the previous year and his results across the board tend to correlate to that.

 

[Ricardo]

You're talking about a tiny little porcelein elephant hidden under a couch? Djokovic - Nadal is a very competitive matchup. If Nadal gets beaten by Djokovic this year at RG, and Nadal reaches his 2012 level, I hope you will be able to admit that.

A massive big tusky bull elephant.

The difference between Nadal in 2011 and 2012 is instructive: he was no longer suffering and afraid of Novak. In fact, he was prepared to take the battle to the Serb. He pitched his tents on the Nole forehand, and opened the rally discussion right up. He was hitting harder and deeper, his serve was better, he was persevering with the rallies. He frustrated Novak to the extent of two double faults on match points. He was Nadal-on-clay, the invincible and strong.

In 2011, he played well at times, but Nole was under his skin too much. Nole had him browbeaten and Nadal didn't have what he himself correctly described as 'the calm.'

If we get 2012 Nadal in 2013, then he'll Boss Novak in Paris just like he did last year...

2011 was more about Djokovic raising his game than Nadal. You might have missed it but he was dominating everywhere... on pretty much every surface against the entire field, including Rafa.

In 2011 it was a high level of domination by Djoker but he didn't dominate everywhere. Even in his unbeaten run, Murray was serving for it in one of the clay MS and choked it away (there was actually a bad line call against Murray when he served for it). He was fortunate to get away with it, and of course he ran into an in-form Federer a couple of weeks later.

 

[britbox]

It's about as close as you'll ever get. He only lost 1 match through to Cincinatti.

 

[Kieran]

I saw a bigger change in Djokovic last year to be honest. He didn't have the same intensity as the previous year and his results across the board tend to correlate to that.

Well, he was playing well until he reached clay. But isn't this the same as what we Nadal fans say about 2011? That mentally he wasn't so tough as previous years, because he let Novak get under his skin?

But last year when Nadal corrected that, made changes and upped his game - but he only won because Novak's game was off?

 

[the AntiPusher]

You're talking about a tiny little porcelein elephant hidden under a couch? Djokovic - Nadal is a very competitive matchup. If Nadal gets beaten by Djokovic this year at RG, and Nadal reaches his 2012 level, I hope you will be able to admit that.

A massive big tusky bull elephant.

The difference between Nadal in 2011 and 2012 is instructive: he was no longer suffering and afraid of Novak. In fact, he was prepared to take the battle to the Serb. He pitched his tents on the Nole forehand, and opened the rally discussion right up. He was hitting harder and deeper, his serve was better, he was persevering with the rallies. He frustrated Novak to the extent of two double faults on match points. He was Nadal-on-clay, the invincible and strong.

In 2011, he played well at times, but Nole was under his skin too much. Nole had him browbeaten and Nadal didn't have what he himself correctly described as 'the calm.'

If we get 2012 Nadal in 2013, then he'll Boss Novak in Paris just like he did last year...

We shall see. I really hope we get to see a Nadal Djokovic match at RG this year. And if Djokovic is dominating Nadal again, we now know its because Nadal is wetting his pants, not because Djokovic is the better player. Or the knees, you can use that too of course. Or maybe weather conditions? Sure. Why not. But no way Djokovic can beat an in form Nadal on the merits.

If we get 2012 Nadal in 2013, then he'll Boss Novak in Paris just like he did last year...

Denisovich, There isnt a more loyal Rafa fan who believes he is invincible on the clay then I am but I am a realist. Rafa days of "boss" Djoker is over.(I really dont think he ever dominated Djoker but had a H2H in finals when they faced each other. That being said, does Rafa has to play the perfect clay match to be Djoker, No(not a Rafa No) but he has to come out the gates being the ultra aggressor similar what he did againt Wawrinka on Sunday during the Madrid final. The past few Djoker opponents have all used the same blueprint\game plan, take the fight to Djoker for the entire match. When Rafa has tried this approach, he has been very competitive. When he is as passive as he was in Monte Carlo, he will be the one always delivering the concession speech. Trust me! Its the only way, he has to be the Spanish bull to beat "The Great Serbian Slayer".

Hey BS, see I didnt mention that Rafa has to control the center of the court or hit the ball flatter, serving and baseline patterns LOL..

 

[britbox]

I saw a bigger change in Djokovic last year to be honest. He didn't have the same intensity as the previous year and his results across the board tend to correlate to that.

Well, he was playing well until he reached clay. But isn't this the same as what we Nadal fans say about 2011? That mentally he wasn't so tough as previous years, because he let Novak get under his skin?

But last year when Nadal corrected that, made changes and upped his game - but he only won because Novak's game was off?

It's generally your argument when Rafa loses any match K, so you might be better positioned to answer your own question.

 

[Kieran]

I saw a bigger change in Djokovic last year to be honest. He didn't have the same intensity as the previous year and his results across the board tend to correlate to that.

Well, he was playing well until he reached clay. But isn't this the same as what we Nadal fans say about 2011? That mentally he wasn't so tough as previous years, because he let Novak get under his skin?

But last year when Nadal corrected that, made changes and upped his game - but he only won because Novak's game was off?

It's generally your argument when Rafa loses any match K, so you might be better positioned to answer your own question.

And now it's your argument when Novak loses? We've more in common than we thought!

 

[brokenshoelace]

Novak wasn't as good last year as he was in 2011. That much is quite evident really. For that matter, he isn't as good this year as he was in 2011 either. Really the closest he's come was the Monte Carlo final, but on a match-to-match basis, no way. That's not a knock on him, as it shows that he really is the best player in the world when he won a slam and a masters event without being absolutely amazing. But the "2013 Djokovic" label thrown around in another thread made me chuckle.

 

[Ricardo]

It's about as close as you'll ever get. He only lost 1 match through to Cincinatti.

I think the best domination belonged to JMac who was loss-less all the way through to RG final, while Djoker was stopped in the semi's.

 

[shawnbm]

I think Nole played a level below 2011 during 2012, but then why wouldn't that happen? Nadal in 2009 was not the same guy as in 2008. He then came back and had a great 2010, but then was not able to sustain it at the same levels in 2011. Only exception to this would appear to be Federer in 2006-2007, but that is a once in two or three generations double there. That is not the norm--most players drop off the year after a career year, like Rafa and Nole did. Look at Mac's 1985 following 1984, or Wilander's year in 1989 after 1988. I just think it is exceedingly difficult to be so dominant in back-to-back years.

 

[tented]

I think Nole played a level below 2011 during 2012, but then why wouldn't that happen? Nadal in 2009 was not the same guy as in 2008. He then came back and had a great 2010, but then was not able to sustain it at the same levels in 2011. Only exception to this would appear to be Federer in 2006-2007, but that is a once in two or three generations double there. That is not the norm--most players drop off the year after a career year, like Rafa and Nole did. Look at Mac's 1985 following 1984, or Wilander's year in 1989 after 1988. I just think it is exceedingly difficult to be so dominant in back-to-back years.

I would also throw in 2005 for Roger. He finished that year 81-4. So it's even more impressive: 2005 through 2007, with 2007 being the weakest of the three.