Madrid 2013 F: Nadal vs Wawrinka
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Murat Baslamisli
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Murat Baslamisli
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tented
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Congrats, Rafa!
23 Masters Series titles, 40 clay-court titles, and 55 titles overall (10th most in Open Era).
23 Masters Series titles, 40 clay-court titles, and 55 titles overall (10th most in Open Era).
brokenshoelace
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That's why I went Nadal in 2, and that's why in another thread, when someone asked about Wawrinka potentially troubling the top dogs on clay, I said Nadal in particular would be a nightmare for him.
In fairness, Stan was obviously not at his best. He looked pretty lethargic, a touch slow, and nothing was really clicking (the serve in particular killed him). However, in spite of that, you could still see the match-up problems, particularly on this surface. If you can't step inside the court, take the ball early and take the initiative, you're going to get slaughtered by Nadal on clay.
Wawrinka's natural game is to stay far behind the baseline to line-up his shots and take huge cuts at the ball (particularly with his beautiful backhand). He can afford to do that for the most part because he has natural fire power, and is really good at producing his own pace. Against Nadal on clay, that can't work. At least not consistently. You're giving up ground, allowing him to move you around, and most importantly, giving him the opportunity to get angles on his cross court forehand. Thus, he'll move you around all day, open up the court, and set up his favorite pattern (CC forehands before finishing with the inside out). Rafa's forehand was exploding off the court and Stan should have made the adjustment to step inside (he did for a while but not consistently). That's the main reason why Stan's DTL backhand was nonexistent in this match. He had to step in and use it to change direction. It's just not going to do a lot of damage from so far back on this surface, as Nadal will have enough time to track it down. In fact, in many ways it becomes counterproductive since it opens up the court and Nadal can capitalize with his CC backhand.
Just not a good day at the office for Wawrinka on every level. Pretty good performance by Rafa on the other hand.
In fairness, Stan was obviously not at his best. He looked pretty lethargic, a touch slow, and nothing was really clicking (the serve in particular killed him). However, in spite of that, you could still see the match-up problems, particularly on this surface. If you can't step inside the court, take the ball early and take the initiative, you're going to get slaughtered by Nadal on clay.
Wawrinka's natural game is to stay far behind the baseline to line-up his shots and take huge cuts at the ball (particularly with his beautiful backhand). He can afford to do that for the most part because he has natural fire power, and is really good at producing his own pace. Against Nadal on clay, that can't work. At least not consistently. You're giving up ground, allowing him to move you around, and most importantly, giving him the opportunity to get angles on his cross court forehand. Thus, he'll move you around all day, open up the court, and set up his favorite pattern (CC forehands before finishing with the inside out). Rafa's forehand was exploding off the court and Stan should have made the adjustment to step inside (he did for a while but not consistently). That's the main reason why Stan's DTL backhand was nonexistent in this match. He had to step in and use it to change direction. It's just not going to do a lot of damage from so far back on this surface, as Nadal will have enough time to track it down. In fact, in many ways it becomes counterproductive since it opens up the court and Nadal can capitalize with his CC backhand.
Just not a good day at the office for Wawrinka on every level. Pretty good performance by Rafa on the other hand.
huntingyou
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Rafa's body language and concentration was telling, he just didn't want to win by default but play great tennis within his own lofty expectations; a task he accomplished.
Rome is the last stand, if Rafa marches through to yet another title; outside of unexpected injury or Robin like performance; the ITF might as well handle him the trophy at RG.
Rome is the last stand, if Rafa marches through to yet another title; outside of unexpected injury or Robin like performance; the ITF might as well handle him the trophy at RG.
huntingyou said:
Another dim-witted statement from hunting4aclue, implicitly making a dig at Djokovic.
I'll tell you, this board is lucky to have me, otherwise every post would be brainless praise for the winner with absolutely no original thoughts whatsoever.
Djokovic is going to give Nadal complete hell at Roland Garros this year. The Dimitrov loss was a good thing because it helps him save his legs (this works too for younger players, guys!). Winning Madrid would have been meaningless to Djokovic at this point.
Djokovic showed at Rome two years and Monte Carlo this year that his best level on clay is better than Nadal's - flat out, no questions asked, no debates. If he brings that to Roland Garros, good night Rafa.
huntingyou
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calitennis127 said:
whatever you say mate!
nobody, but absolutely nobody agrees with you......even Novak himself, and this is trivial sport talk; not how to achieve World Peace or feed the world.
huntingyou said:calitennis127 said:
whatever you say mate!
nobody, but absolutely nobody agrees with you......even Novak himself, and this is trivial sport talk; not how to achieve World Peace or feed the world.
They don't agree, because they are blinded by the number of titles Nadal has won on clay without understanding the reasons for the extent of that success.
Put Djokovic at his best on clay against Nadal at his best on clay, and Djokovic wins 9 times out of 10.
Front242
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calitennis127 said:huntingyou said:calitennis127 said:
whatever you say mate!
nobody, but absolutely nobody agrees with you......even Novak himself, and this is trivial sport talk; not how to achieve World Peace or feed the world.
They don't agree, because they are blinded by the number of titles Nadal has won on clay without understanding the reasons for the extent of that success.
Put Djokovic at his best on clay against Nadal at his best on clay, and Djokovic wins 9 times out of 10.
I'd say they'd split it 5 each out of 10 at their respective best. No way Djokovic wins 9/10.
brokenshoelace
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DarthFed
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huntingyou said:
:huh: I hope you are kidding. Nole doesn't have a one handed backhand. This isn't Rafa vs. Fed on clay. If Rafa doesn't face Nole at RG his chances are 99.99% of winning. But we will see if Nole leaves the door open at RG by losing to a nobody like he did here. I wouldn't count on it and I wouldn't count on Fed handing Rafa the trophy by taking out Djokovic either. If it is Rafa-Nole it's going to be a hell of a battle, I wouldn't anticipate the latter playing as weak as he did in the final last year.
Front242
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For sure Djokovic will go all out this year if he faces Nadal as he was flat out crap in the first 2 sets last year. It may even be a quarter final match. The one extremely slim chance of a winner outside those two is that they absolutely physically kill each other and the semi is a match between a worn out victor of a mammoth quarter and a much fresher opponent.
I wouldn't read too much into the Madrid trophy. As stated earlier, the Spanish let him play in daytime every match (great spin, no sleep issues), and he faced an empty tank Stan who played 9 out of the last 10 days, included two late night matches. Let's see after Rome and Roland Garros what the situation is----Ralph can shine with everyone except Novak who makes him wet his pants lol.
huntingyou
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DarthFed said:
When did I mentioned Nole? Let's take a step further; who says a hypothetical match between those two will be easy?
My point is merely looking at Rafa in a vacuum, his body language and concentration through out the match was encouraging to see. Mentally, he is reaching that level of comfort with his game and body....something he will need to establish the de facto pecking order at Philippe chatrier.
IF Rafa wins Rome, (possible right?) then his confidence will be at the highest.......thus my proclamation of "last stand" to the field to derail the train.
As usual, you ignore Rafa and solely place the determining factor to his opponent; in this case Novak.
Fair enough, you don't anticipate Roger handling Nadal the trophy but in the other hand; you shouldn't anticipate Nadal trembling in his feet at the business end of a set; this is no longer 2011.
If you think Novak was weak in 2012 against Rafa, by the same standard how do you rate Nadal's 2011 performance against Novak on clay?
Front242
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In fairness Djokovic double faulted to end the first set I believe last year at RG and generally stunk it up for the first two sets with ufes. Actually neither of them played well at all in the first two sets imo. Nadal didn't have to do much at all except keep the ball in play in the first two sets as they were pretty much gifted to him. Nadal played very well in Rome last year but again Novak double faulted on match point. He can surely only improve on that. I thought Nadal played very well at Rome 2011 also but Djokovic was just too good.
I'd rate Nadal's performance in 2011 on clay against Novak far higher than Novak's performance at RG 2012. Nadal's level was generally very high at the 2 masters in 2011 but he just ran into a red hot Djokovic. Of course that impacted Nadal's confidence and 2011 was his worst RG performance but I'd still rate his level prior to RG 2011 as higher than the poor effort Djokovic put in at RG last year. At RG '12 Djokovic really only played well for the 3rd set and most of set 4 and much to do with that was the rain which helped win him set 3 and perk him up for set 4. Of course the momentum was gone the following day with the change of weather but they each suffered from the weather delays. This year he can surely only improve on that. I mean he can play 2 sets very well clearly as he did in Monte Carlo but yet last year at RG he played 2 really poor opening sets (again, I thought both were poor in the first 2, just Djokovic was even worse. DF'ing away set 1 etc) and only started doing well when the rain started and then up to 5-5 in set 4.
I'd rate Nadal's performance in 2011 on clay against Novak far higher than Novak's performance at RG 2012. Nadal's level was generally very high at the 2 masters in 2011 but he just ran into a red hot Djokovic. Of course that impacted Nadal's confidence and 2011 was his worst RG performance but I'd still rate his level prior to RG 2011 as higher than the poor effort Djokovic put in at RG last year. At RG '12 Djokovic really only played well for the 3rd set and most of set 4 and much to do with that was the rain which helped win him set 3 and perk him up for set 4. Of course the momentum was gone the following day with the change of weather but they each suffered from the weather delays. This year he can surely only improve on that. I mean he can play 2 sets very well clearly as he did in Monte Carlo but yet last year at RG he played 2 really poor opening sets (again, I thought both were poor in the first 2, just Djokovic was even worse. DF'ing away set 1 etc) and only started doing well when the rain started and then up to 5-5 in set 4.
IMO, on the clay Nadal at his best beats Djokovic at his best 8/10 times.
On clay, Novak's a grinder and relies on supreme baseline consistency and supreme physical and mental stamina to beat Nadal. At his best, Nadal is aggressive with his court positioning and forehand, and doesn't play timid and short.
Natural weapons with supreme defending skills beats consistency with supreme defending skills 8/10 times.
On clay, Novak's a grinder and relies on supreme baseline consistency and supreme physical and mental stamina to beat Nadal. At his best, Nadal is aggressive with his court positioning and forehand, and doesn't play timid and short.
Natural weapons with supreme defending skills beats consistency with supreme defending skills 8/10 times.
