ISIS

[Kieran]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

The huge elephant in the room you are missing here Kieran is that Putin enjoys far more (more than twice as much support in most cases) from the populace he represents than ANY western leader.

According to what? Polls he ran himself? This guy enjoys even more popularity in North Korea:

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

We have been over these many times before Cali...You live in your own world where unicorns drink water from the the rivers, Crusades did not take place people were not imprisoned because they preferred science over religion, the clergy did not rape boys because their "spiritual" religion forbids them to ignore what makes them a man in the first place.

You know I have heard many atheists say something like "I don't believe in the spaghetti monster, so I also don't believe in the Old Testament myths." The problem is that what pretty much all atheists nowadays believe in about history is just as fictitious as the spaghetti monster, yet far more pernicious. They justify their worldview with utterly ignorant beliefs about history.

Galileo?

If you actually wished to learn anything about the Galileo affair instead of blindly and mindlessly believing what you want to believe about it, you maybe would reach the same conclusion as the Victorian atheist biologist Thomas Henry Huxley who studied the Galileo affair closely and begrudgingly concluded that "the Church had the better of it". He was an opponent of the Church theologically, but he admitted that the Church pretty much won the argument with Galileo.

The Crusades?

You mean the Christian response to centuries of Islamic aggression? What exactly was so terrible about them?

Even if you want to say that they were "religious wars" in a pejorative sense, there have been thousands and thousands of wars for a variety of reasons, so it doesn't make any sense to single them out as uniquely bad.

Clergy raping boys?

Yes, this happened, but no one at all has shown that the proportion of priests who commit acts of sexual abuse is higher than that of the general population. The Cambridge historian Philip Jenkins has documented this over and over.

Oh, OK then...My mistake holding the "Clergy" who take a vow of celibacy to a higher standard than the "general population". I am a bit slow like that...

Do you give the ones who do live up to that higher standard any credit?

For????

 

[Kieran]

Because the U.S. intervention in Serbia was a major blunder based on lies. Billie knows this.

Where did I mention Serbia?

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

You're right to hold them to a higher standard, Murat, but you would be wrong if you condemn the whole Church for their evil. Statistically, Cali is right, that priests are no more likely to offend than Jewish rabbis, Muslim Imams, Protestant clerics, atheists, and any other male demographic. You'll hear about it more because they're Catholics - and rightly, the Church should take the hits - but it's more a problem of the male population than anything religious, or to do with celibacy or anything like this...

I despise all those groups equally. Give me individuals, then we are talking...

 

[Kieran]

You're right to hold them to a higher standard, Murat, but you would be wrong if you condemn the whole Church for their evil. Statistically, Cali is right, that priests are no more likely to offend than Jewish rabbis, Muslim Imams, Protestant clerics, atheists, and any other male demographic. You'll hear about it more because they're Catholics - and rightly, the Church should take the hits - but it's more a problem of the male population than anything religious, or to do with celibacy or anything like this...

I despise all those groups equally. Give me individuals, then we are talking...

Unfortunately, abuse occurs in individuals too...

 

[britbox]

BB, you might know this as you are very well knowledgeable about many things, Gadaffi and Yugoslavia always had excellent relations, many people went to Libya to work, and even during the war in Yugoslavia, he never spoke or did anything against the Serbian side. He was one of the moderate Muslim leaders who really didn't hate other nations and nationalities. Yeah, he had his faults like any of the politicians and had an iron fist but we know see how important and necessary that was. But he made sure that the ordinary people were prosperous. Anybody who wanted a house was going to have it. They had free education, free transportation, free medical services and even if they couldn't provide the cure for their patients in Libya, he would send sick people to Europe and paid for their expenses. The way his European allies turned on him showed me yet again how politics is a dirty, dirty business. I guess Italian and French politicians preferred to give him up than paying back the loans he gave them.:nono

And despite everything happening and proving so many times the errors in big powers ways of dealing with global political issues, we still hear people compare Gadaffi or Putin with Hitler. I guess people really don't know who Hitler was or their brains are so washed out that they blindly just believe anything they are served.:nono

Well, the western media will trot out the government line in most cases. After all, the vast majority of the press is owned by a few selected individuals who deal with the top government figures directly all the time.

As for Gadaffi - did a lot of good things for the Libyan people that will rarely be reported on. He was far from perfect but the Hitler comparisons are ridiculous.

Also, while most believe the Libyan Government had a role with planning the Pan-am bombing, most people who know the subject in a little more detail generally regard the Iranians as the biggest sponsors of the attack. It was a direct response to the US Navy shooting down an Iranian passenger plane (in Iranian waters) and killing 290 people. Basically, the pan-am bombing was a tit for tat revenge attack. Most people aren't even actually aware an Iranian passenger plane was even shot down in the first place - never mind all the deaths - it was barely reported in the western media.

Virtually all of these wars are for big business, controlling resources (mainly energy), protecting currencies and geopolitical aims. Humanitarian stuff or democracy doesn't come into it all - that's just a sales pitch to the folks back home.

 

[Kieran]

Who compared Gaddafi to Hitler?

 

[britbox]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

The huge elephant in the room you are missing here Kieran is that Putin enjoys far more (more than twice as much support in most cases) from the populace he represents than ANY western leader.

According to what? Polls he ran himself? This guy enjoys even more popularity in North Korea:

Any russian will tell you he's hugely popular at home - even those who don't care for him much.

 

[Kieran]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

The huge elephant in the room you are missing here Kieran is that Putin enjoys far more (more than twice as much support in most cases) from the populace he represents than ANY western leader.

According to what? Polls he ran himself? This guy enjoys even more popularity in North Korea:

Any russian will tell you he's hugely popular at home - even those who don't care for him much.

I'm sure he's a pin-up. Talk to people from Ukraine, the Baltics, Poland, and see what they tell you about him. He's not winning any popularity polls there, and they live in real fear of the bloke, and his intentions. This isn't the "western media" talking, I get this from my wife (Lithuanian), and friends from these states, as well as pals from Slovakia and Hungary.

In terms of Europe, which is screwed up enough as it is by the EU, he's from a previous century...

 

[britbox]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

The huge elephant in the room you are missing here Kieran is that Putin enjoys far more (more than twice as much support in most cases) from the populace he represents than ANY western leader.

According to what? Polls he ran himself? This guy enjoys even more popularity in North Korea:

Any russian will tell you he's hugely popular at home - even those who don't care for him much.

I'm sure he's a pin-up. Talk to people from Ukraine, the Baltics, Poland, and see what they tell you about him. He's not winning any popularity polls there, and they live in real fear of the bloke, and his intentions. This isn't the "western media" talking, I get this from my wife (Lithuanian), and friends from these states, as well as pals from Slovakia and Hungary.

In terms of Europe, which is screwed up enough as it is by the EU, he's from a previous century...

Well, he's not representing those countries so I'm sure he couldn't care less... although a lot of people in the Eastern Ukraine seem to like him. Those same people who had their language banned as an official medium when the rent-a-mob in Kiev siezed power from the guy they elected to govern them. Maybe the Director of the CIA could shed some light on that tactic - he was enjoying a random holiday in the Ukrainian capital at the time. Guess he just saw a hotel he liked on TripAdvisor.

 

[Kieran]

I wouldn't trust TripAdvisor, I'm more a Trivago bloke myself, but nor would I trust the Russian populations that were planted abroad in the good old Commie days. It's driving friendships apart in Lithuania, the suggestions they're making. The Bear is growling, brother - never a good sign for the small fish. Be glad you're where you are...

 

[calitennis127]

Virtually all of these wars are for big business, controlling resources (mainly energy), protecting currencies and geopolitical aims. Humanitarian stuff or democracy doesn't come into it all - that's just a sales pitch to the folks back home.

Disagree there.....the effects of educational indoctrination on the political class are very strong. Bush and Obama have both been ideologues, in addition to cronies. Philosophy is not irrelevant.

 

[calitennis127]

Because the U.S. intervention in Serbia was a major blunder based on lies. Billie knows this.

Where did I mention Serbia?

In past conversations, when you said that it was sensible for the U.S. and NATO to side with the mujaheeden against Milosevic.

 

[calitennis127]

You're right to hold them to a higher standard, Murat, but you would be wrong if you condemn the whole Church for their evil. Statistically, Cali is right, that priests are no more likely to offend than Jewish rabbis, Muslim Imams, Protestant clerics, atheists, and any other male demographic. You'll hear about it more because they're Catholics - and rightly, the Church should take the hits - but it's more a problem of the male population than anything religious, or to do with celibacy or anything like this...

I despise all those groups equally. Give me individuals, then we are talking...

And if it is only individuals that matter, then why are you condemning Catholic clergy as a group?

 

[britbox]

I wouldn't trust TripAdvisor, I'm more a Trivago bloke myself, but nor would I trust the Russian populations that were planted abroad in the good old Commie days. It's driving friendships apart in Lithuania, the suggestions they're making. The Bear is growling, brother - never a good sign for the small fish. Be glad you're where you are...

Bears do growl if they get repeatedly prodded with a stick. Particularly in the name of geopolitics... ask any bear.

So the Russians in Lithuania like Putin? Is he rigging their polls too?

 

[calitennis127]

We have been over these many times before Cali...You live in your own world where unicorns drink water from the the rivers, Crusades did not take place people were not imprisoned because they preferred science over religion, the clergy did not rape boys because their "spiritual" religion forbids them to ignore what makes them a man in the first place.

You know I have heard many atheists say something like "I don't believe in the spaghetti monster, so I also don't believe in the Old Testament myths." The problem is that what pretty much all atheists nowadays believe in about history is just as fictitious as the spaghetti monster, yet far more pernicious. They justify their worldview with utterly ignorant beliefs about history.

Galileo?

If you actually wished to learn anything about the Galileo affair instead of blindly and mindlessly believing what you want to believe about it, you maybe would reach the same conclusion as the Victorian atheist biologist Thomas Henry Huxley who studied the Galileo affair closely and begrudgingly concluded that "the Church had the better of it". He was an opponent of the Church theologically, but he admitted that the Church pretty much won the argument with Galileo.

The Crusades?

You mean the Christian response to centuries of Islamic aggression? What exactly was so terrible about them?

Even if you want to say that they were "religious wars" in a pejorative sense, there have been thousands and thousands of wars for a variety of reasons, so it doesn't make any sense to single them out as uniquely bad.

Clergy raping boys?

Yes, this happened, but no one at all has shown that the proportion of priests who commit acts of sexual abuse is higher than that of the general population. The Cambridge historian Philip Jenkins has documented this over and over.

Oh, OK then...My mistake holding the "Clergy" who take a vow of celibacy to a higher standard than the "general population". I am a bit slow like that...

Do you give the ones who do live up to that higher standard any credit?

For????

Living up to the higher standard (your words, not mine).

 

[calitennis127]

I wouldn't trust TripAdvisor, I'm more a Trivago bloke myself, but nor would I trust the Russian populations that were planted abroad in the good old Commie days. It's driving friendships apart in Lithuania, the suggestions they're making. The Bear is growling, brother - never a good sign for the small fish. Be glad you're where you are...

Bears do growl if they get repeatedly prodded with a stick. Particularly in the name of geopolitics... ask any bear.

So the Russians in Lithuania like Putin? Is he rigging their polls too?

I have yet to see Kieran show one time a single legitimate reason why Putin is a menacing leader or one occasion when he has done anything outrageously unlawful

 

[britbox]

Virtually all of these wars are for big business, controlling resources (mainly energy), protecting currencies and geopolitical aims. Humanitarian stuff or democracy doesn't come into it all - that's just a sales pitch to the folks back home.

Disagree there.....the effects of educational indoctrination on the political class are very strong. Bush and Obama have both been ideologues, in addition to cronies. Philosophy is not irrelevant.

The president doesn't decide to go to war because of personal ideology. Do you have any idea how many lobby groups are involved ranging from oil barons, defense contractors, other high ranking government officials, groups who fund campaigns, religious lobby groups... You overestimate any president's "real power" my friend.

 

[Kieran]

I wouldn't trust TripAdvisor, I'm more a Trivago bloke myself, but nor would I trust the Russian populations that were planted abroad in the good old Commie days. It's driving friendships apart in Lithuania, the suggestions they're making. The Bear is growling, brother - never a good sign for the small fish. Be glad you're where you are...

Bears do growl if they get repeatedly prodded with a stick. Particularly in the name of geopolitics... ask any bear.

So the Russians in Lithuania like Putin? Is he rigging their polls too?

He's shaking their tree, brother. He's not a presence you want to sit beside as a neighbour. People in these countries are getting highly agitated, with great justification, given the history of the region. My father in law grew up in Siberia. That wasn't because Butlins had a holiday camp there, by the way. They have bad experience of Russia at close quarters and I have yet to speak to anyone from that region who thinks Putin can be trusted.

They know his type... :nono

 

[calitennis127]

Virtually all of these wars are for big business, controlling resources (mainly energy), protecting currencies and geopolitical aims. Humanitarian stuff or democracy doesn't come into it all - that's just a sales pitch to the folks back home.

Disagree there.....the effects of educational indoctrination on the political class are very strong. Bush and Obama have both been ideologues, in addition to cronies. Philosophy is not irrelevant.

The president doesn't decide to go to war because of personal ideology. Do you have any idea how many lobby groups are involved ranging from oil barons, defense contractors, other high ranking government officials, groups who fund campaigns, religious lobby groups... You overestimate any president's "real power" my friend.

I agree with you there; I know that D.C. is under the sway of countless lobby groups, and when it comes to foreign policy the Saudis and Israelis basically tell Congress what to do.

At the same time, many "lobby groups" are ideological in nature. They aren't all just defense contractors and oil barons.

Do you really think that the U.S. is intervening in Iraq just because ISIS took the ability of Halliburton to control the oil fields in northern Iraq away?