ISIS

[calitennis127]

Everyone has their sins, Muslims Jews, Christians...There is a reason (or million) I am an atheist. My only point was ISIS is pretty different from most religious fanatics I know.

And the crimes of those who have expelled the overt spiritual religion of Christianity and Judaism to replace it with political ideology have been far greater and far worse than anything done in the name of those two religions. Islam does not belong in the same category as Christianity and Judaism. It is substantially different from each and in some ways has more in common with Communism or Jacobinism than Christianity or Judaism.

It is a huge pet peeve of mine when people mention "the world's three great religions". This only makes sense in a limited way of personal spirituality that could also incorporate Hinduism and Buddhism. But when it comes to political implications, Islam is much closer to secular ideologies of tyranny and imperialism than it is to Christianity and Judaism. This is clear both theoretically and historically.

It is very silly to lump Islam into the same category as Christianity in a grand political sense. Two major differences between Islam and Christianity are that a) Christianity does not have a mandated perpetual warfare doctrine in dealing with non-believers (Qu'ran 9:29), and b) with the verse "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," Christ demarcated a line between civil and religious authority that Mohammed never did. There is nothing akin to the Shariah in Christian theology. Islam is a religion, explicit social code, and political ideology wrapped in one. Christianity defines itself entirely as a spiritual religion. Huge difference.

Moving on now.....

The Soviets did everything they could to eliminate the Russian Orthodox Church when Lenin took over. It was a million times more intolerant than Joe McCarthy. Read the great Harvard scholar Richard Pipes on this. This is a topic that Richard Dawkins would know nothing about.

What the Spanish Inquisition did or what Catholics and Protestants did in the 17th century to each other is absolutely trivial compared to the massive crimes of atheistic political ideologues (including INTOLERANCE of the highest magnitude), such as the French Revolutionaries, Soviet Communists, anti-Christian Nazis, or frankly the United States government since it has adopted the foreign policy approach of Woodrow Wilson.

How come when the U.S. government kills 100,000 people in Iraq in the name of secular democracy, women's rights, and gay rights in a matter of 5 years this is somehow better than the Spanish Inquisition killing 5,000 people over a 400-year period? How does that make any sense?

Furthermore, ascribing to religion a uniquely nefarious place in causing violent conflict is utterly silly. Wars have happened for a wide variety of reasons and often times they were warned against by religious leaders, or stopped by religious leaders, or made less destructive by religious leaders. If you want to go strictly by the Nazis, I could in a very narrow argument say that their unique cruelty had something to do with the huge homosexual tendency among them, and then I could say that "gay people cause genocides". Combine that with Stalin and Lenin and the Nazis, and then I can also say "atheists cause genocides". What would you think of that?

And I recommend that you and tented read The Black Book of Communism. It's written by some French people whose toughness I would never question.

 

[calitennis127]

Can you or anyone tell me if the Ottoman Empire was like ISIS , there would be one church left standing?

Yes, according to verse 9:29 of the holy book of Islam, which is an imperialist political ideology having more in common with Jacobinism than Christianity, unbelievers have three options: convert, be subjugated and pay a poll tax, or die.

ISIS would give the infidels the opportunity to pay the poll tax. It would only kill them if they refused that option.

 

[brokenshoelace]

ISIS would give the infidels the opportunity to pay the poll tax. It would only kill them if they refused that option.

No, that is the ISIS propaganda would have you believe. Reality is far different. You think all these people just preferred to be massacred over converting?

I have personally seen a video of ISIS tormenting a Christian, asking him to convert, him doing so over and over and over (by saying the "Shahada") only for them to behead him anyway. It's just as disturbing as it sounds.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Everyone has their sins, Muslims Jews, Christians...There is a reason (or million) I am an atheist. My only point was ISIS is pretty different from most religious fanatics I know.

And the crimes of those who have expelled the overt spiritual religion of Christianity and Judaism to replace it with political ideology have been far greater and far worse than anything done in the name of those two religions. Islam does not belong in the same category as Christianity and Judaism. It is substantially different from each and in some ways has more in common with Communism or Jacobinism than Christianity or Judaism.

It is a huge pet peeve of mine when people mention "the world's three great religions". This only makes sense in a limited way of personal spirituality that could also incorporate Hinduism and Buddhism. But when it comes to political implications, Islam is much closer to secular ideologies of tyranny and imperialism than it is to Christianity and Judaism. This is clear both theoretically and historically.

It is very silly to lump Islam into the same category as Christianity in a grand political sense. Two major differences between Islam and Christianity are that a) Christianity does not have a mandated perpetual warfare doctrine in dealing with non-believers (Qu'ran 9:29), and b) with the verse "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," Christ demarcated a line between civil and religious authority that Mohammed never did. There is nothing akin to the Shariah in Christian theology. Islam is a religion, explicit social code, and political ideology wrapped in one. Christianity defines itself entirely as a spiritual religion. Huge difference.

Moving on now.....

The Soviets did everything they could to eliminate the Russian Orthodox Church when Lenin took over. It was a million times more intolerant than Joe McCarthy. Read the great Harvard scholar Richard Pipes on this. This is a topic that Richard Dawkins would know nothing about.

What the Spanish Inquisition did or what Catholics and Protestants did in the 17th century to each other is absolutely trivial compared to the massive crimes of atheistic political ideologues (including INTOLERANCE of the highest magnitude), such as the French Revolutionaries, Soviet Communists, anti-Christian Nazis, or frankly the United States government since it has adopted the foreign policy approach of Woodrow Wilson.

How come when the U.S. government kills 100,000 people in Iraq in the name of secular democracy, women's rights, and gay rights in a matter of 5 years this is somehow better than the Spanish Inquisition killing 5,000 people over a 400-year period? How does that make any sense?

Furthermore, ascribing to religion a uniquely nefarious place in causing violent conflict is utterly silly. Wars have happened for a wide variety of reasons and often times they were warned against by religious leaders, or stopped by religious leaders, or made less destructive by religious leaders. If you want to go strictly by the Nazis, I could in a very narrow argument say that their unique cruelty had something to do with the huge homosexual tendency among them, and then I could say that "gay people cause genocides". Combine that with Stalin and Lenin and the Nazis, and then I can also say "atheists cause genocides". What would you think of that?

And I recommend that you and tented read The Black Book of Communism. It's written by some French people whose toughness I would never question.

We have been over these many times before Cali...You live in your own world where unicorns drink water from the the rivers, Crusades did not take place, people were not imprisoned because they preferred science over religion, the clergy did not rape boys because their "spiritual" religion forbids them to ignore what makes them a man in the first place.

You believe what you want to believe if it makes you happy.

Your happiness is the most important thing to me, you know...Just try not have your honeymoon in Northern Iraq these days...

 

[Billie]

I grew up in a communist country and it wasn't that bad, I somehow managed to grow up relatively normally:laydownlaughing People's perceptions about some things that are foreign to them always made me giggle.

Wow it occurred to me that I could probably write a book about everything I faced and lived through, communism, war, extremism, life of a refugee, moving to a completely new country with no money, hell yeah, lots to write about. Any book publishers around here?

 

[Kieran]

I grew up in a communist country and it wasn't that bad, I somehow managed to grow up relatively normally:laydownlaughing People's perceptions about some things that are foreign to them always made me giggle.

Wow it occurred to me that I could probably write a book about everything I faced and lived through, communism, war, extremism, life of a refugee, moving to a completely new country with no money, hell yeah, lots to write about. Any book publishers around here?

Do it, Billie! I'm not a publisher, but I am a reader, and I'd read it.

By the way, I asked before but haven't heard: anyone know what the UN is doing about Isis? Have they been noticed at all, with regards to this? Are they any longer effective or worthwhile as a global leader, or peacekeeping force?

 

[brokenshoelace]

George Bush bombed Iraq in the name of gay rights apparently. Yup. I'll go out on a limb here and say that Christianity played a bigger role than gay rights in the bombing of Iraq. Oh, and oil certainly had nothing to do with it. Come to think of it, isn't oil often associated with Christianity? Hmm, I'm onto something here! Well not really, but neither is the claim that Iraq was bombed in the name of gay rights.

 

[Billie]

By the way, I asked before but haven't heard: anyone know what the UN is doing about Isis? Have they been noticed at all, with regards to this? Are they any longer effective or worthwhile as a global leader, or peacekeeping force?

This is just my opinion, but UN does not represent what they were meant to represent originally when it comes to global politic. You can visit their official website http://www.un.org/en/ they even have live steaming of their assemblies. Yesterday, at the UN headquarters in NY, I read that Libyan representative begged everybody for help in their fight against extremism and different militias in their country. It is so bad that the officials had to move out of Tripoli into a "safer" city because two biggest cities are overrun by different militias fighting against each other, and against the official military. That country is doomed and it will take years and years before the ones that survive will be able to live anything close to a normal life.:nono

Here is an interesting article about one of the Syrian groups, a group that was supported by Sen McCain last year and he appealed to the American government to help them with guns. Turns out, these guys are not so nice and moderate freedom fighters. I just wonder if the politicians can be this silly or if there is more to it?
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/09/25/how-john-mccain-wound-up-canoodling-with-terrorists/

Also I read on one of the Serbian websites and I haven't looked for confirmation on any English websites yet, that the American coalition bombed a village in Syria, killing among others 5 kids, a village that didn't have any military camps. As if they haven't suffered enough.....

 

[britbox]

By the way, I asked before but haven't heard: anyone know what the UN is doing about Isis? Have they been noticed at all, with regards to this? Are they any longer effective or worthwhile as a global leader, or peacekeeping force?

This is just my opinion, but UN does not represent what they were meant to represent originally when it comes to global politic. You can visit their official website http://www.un.org/en/ they even have live steaming of their assemblies. Yesterday, at the UN headquarters in NY, I read that Libyan representative begged everybody for help in their fight against extremism and different militias in their country. It is so bad that the officials had to move out of Tripoli into a "safer" city because two biggest cities are overrun by different militias fighting against each other, and against the official military. That country is doomed and it will take years and years before the ones that survive will be able to live anything close to a normal life.:nono

Here is an interesting article about one of the Syrian groups, a group that was supported by Sen McCain last year and he appealed to the American government to help them with guns. Turns out, these guys are not so nice and moderate freedom fighters. I just wonder if the politicians can be this silly or if there is more to it?
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/09/25/how-john-mccain-wound-up-canoodling-with-terrorists/

Also I read on one of the Serbian websites and I haven't looked for confirmation on any English websites yet, that the American coalition bombed a village in Syria, killing among others 5 kids, a village that didn't have any military camps. As if they haven't suffered enough.....

The UN is a toothless body unfortunately. Much maligned and constantly manipulated.

I wonder why David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy aren't in Tripoli now preaching how great the future is for Libya with the demise of Gadaffi. It only seems like yesterday that they were there getting the plaudits for overthrowing the "regime". All for "humanitarian reasons" of course... nothing to do with Gadaffi wanting to set up a pan-African currency to move away from the Petrodollar.

John McCain... a hideous figure.

 

[Billie]

BB, you might know this as you are very well knowledgeable about many things, Gadaffi and Yugoslavia always had excellent relations, many people went to Libya to work, and even during the war in Yugoslavia, he never spoke or did anything against the Serbian side. He was one of the moderate Muslim leaders who really didn't hate other nations and nationalities. Yeah, he had his faults like any of the politicians and had an iron fist but we know see how important and necessary that was. But he made sure that the ordinary people were prosperous. Anybody who wanted a house was going to have it. They had free education, free transportation, free medical services and even if they couldn't provide the cure for their patients in Libya, he would send sick people to Europe and paid for their expenses. The way his European allies turned on him showed me yet again how politics is a dirty, dirty business. I guess Italian and French politicians preferred to give him up than paying back the loans he gave them.:nono

And despite everything happening and proving so many times the errors in big powers ways of dealing with global political issues, we still hear people compare Gadaffi or Putin with Hitler. I guess people really don't know who Hitler was or their brains are so washed out that they blindly just believe anything they are served.:nono

 

[Kieran]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

 

[calitennis127]

George Bush bombed Iraq in the name of gay rights apparently. Yup. I'll go out on a limb here and say that Christianity played a bigger role than gay rights in the bombing of Iraq. Oh, and oil certainly had nothing to do with it. Come to think of it, isn't oil often associated with Christianity? Hmm, I'm onto something here! Well not really, but neither is the claim that Iraq was bombed in the name of gay rights.

Stupid post.

Iraq was bombed in the name of universal "democracy" and so-called "freedom". What is regarded as part and parcel of that nowadays are the movements for gay rights and women's rights. In fact, Hillary Clinton was quoted as saying that the mission of the U.S. in Afghanistan was to advance the cause of women's rights there. So when I say that Iraq was attacked in the name of those movements, I am not necessarily saying that it was explicitly stated that those were the reasons, but I am drawing a very clear connection.

Consider this quote from George Bush's speech of March 8, 2005:

"The advance of hope in the Middle East also requires new thinking in the capitals of great democracies -- including Washington, D.C. By now it should be clear that decades of excusing and accommodating tyranny, in the pursuit of stability, have only led to injustice and instability and tragedy. It should be clear that the advance of democracy leads to peace, because governments that respect the rights of their people also respect the rights of their neighbors. It should be clear that the best antidote to radicalism and terror is the tolerance and hope kindled in free societies. And our duty is now clear: For the sake of our long-term security, all free nations must stand with the forces of democracy and justice that have begun to transform the Middle East.

Encouraging democracy in that region is a generational commitment. It's also a difficult commitment, demanding patience and resolve -- when the headlines are good and when the headlines aren't so good. Freedom has determined enemies, who show no mercy for the innocent, and no respect for the rules of warfare. Many societies in the region struggle with poverty and illiteracy, many rulers in the region have longstanding habits of control; many people in the region have deeply ingrained habits of fear.

For all these reasons, the chances of democratic progress in the broader Middle East have seemed frozen in place for decades. Yet at last, clearly and suddenly, the thaw has begun. The people of Afghanistan have embraced free government, after suffering under one of the most backward tyrannies on earth. The voters in Iraq defied threats of murder, and have set their country on a path to full democracy. The people of the Palestinian Territories cast their ballots against violence and corruption of the past. And any who doubt the appeal of freedom in the Middle East can look to Lebanon, where the Lebanese people are demanding a free and independent nation. In the words of one Lebanese observer, "Democracy is knocking at the door of this country and, if it's successful in Lebanon, it is going to ring the doors of every Arab regime."


With this kind of rhetoric from Bush's speechwriters which he agreed to repeat, Bush had much more in common with Robespierre than with any Christian or intelligent conservative over the centuries. This is millenarian rhetoric adopted by the entire political class of the U.S.

Also, Bush showed absolutely no regard for the Christian population in Iraq, which has suffered immensely because of the U.S. invasion in 2003. Saying that Christianity was a motivation for the war is simply idiotic.

 

[calitennis127]

We have been over these many times before Cali...You live in your own world where unicorns drink water from the the rivers, Crusades did not take place people were not imprisoned because they preferred science over religion, the clergy did not rape boys because their "spiritual" religion forbids them to ignore what makes them a man in the first place.

You know I have heard many atheists say something like "I don't believe in the spaghetti monster, so I also don't believe in the Old Testament myths." The problem is that what pretty much all atheists nowadays believe in about history is just as fictitious as the spaghetti monster, yet far more pernicious. They justify their worldview with utterly ignorant beliefs about history.

Galileo?

If you actually wished to learn anything about the Galileo affair instead of blindly and mindlessly believing what you want to believe about it, you maybe would reach the same conclusion as the Victorian atheist biologist Thomas Henry Huxley who studied the Galileo affair closely and begrudgingly concluded that "the Church had the better of it". He was an opponent of the Church theologically, but he admitted that the Church pretty much won the argument with Galileo.

The Crusades?

You mean the Christian response to centuries of Islamic aggression? What exactly was so terrible about them?

Even if you want to say that they were "religious wars" in a pejorative sense, there have been thousands and thousands of wars for a variety of reasons, so it doesn't make any sense to single them out as uniquely bad.

Clergy raping boys?

Yes, this happened, but no one at all has shown that the proportion of priests who commit acts of sexual abuse is higher than that of the general population. The Cambridge historian Philip Jenkins has documented this over and over.

 

[calitennis127]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

It is so shocking to see that the strategy of air power alone, concocted by the inarticulate buffoon Barack Obama, is not halting the advance of ISIS on the ground. I can't believe it.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

We have been over these many times before Cali...You live in your own world where unicorns drink water from the the rivers, Crusades did not take place people were not imprisoned because they preferred science over religion, the clergy did not rape boys because their "spiritual" religion forbids them to ignore what makes them a man in the first place.

You know I have heard many atheists say something like "I don't believe in the spaghetti monster, so I also don't believe in the Old Testament myths." The problem is that what pretty much all atheists nowadays believe in about history is just as fictitious as the spaghetti monster, yet far more pernicious. They justify their worldview with utterly ignorant beliefs about history.

Galileo?

If you actually wished to learn anything about the Galileo affair instead of blindly and mindlessly believing what you want to believe about it, you maybe would reach the same conclusion as the Victorian atheist biologist Thomas Henry Huxley who studied the Galileo affair closely and begrudgingly concluded that "the Church had the better of it". He was an opponent of the Church theologically, but he admitted that the Church pretty much won the argument with Galileo.

The Crusades?

You mean the Christian response to centuries of Islamic aggression? What exactly was so terrible about them?

Even if you want to say that they were "religious wars" in a pejorative sense, there have been thousands and thousands of wars for a variety of reasons, so it doesn't make any sense to single them out as uniquely bad.

Clergy raping boys?

Yes, this happened, but no one at all has shown that the proportion of priests who commit acts of sexual abuse is higher than that of the general population. The Cambridge historian Philip Jenkins has documented this over and over.

Oh, OK then...My mistake holding the "Clergy" who take a vow of celibacy to a higher standard than the "general population". I am a bit slow like that...

 

[britbox]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

The huge elephant in the room you are missing here Kieran is that Putin enjoys far more (more than twice as much support in most cases) from the populace he represents than ANY western leader.

 

[calitennis127]

It seems this whole situation is a mess and nobody knows how to deal with it, at the end: bomb 'em!!

The mess also happens when big powers act inconsistently, so they attack them in one country but help them in another. Vicious cycle.uzzled

If anybody is interested what the situation is in some Muslim states, like Bosnia and Kosovo, where extremists have recruited big numbers for their cause:

http://serbianna.com/blogs/bozinovich/archives/1977

http://serbianna.com/blogs/bozinovich/archives/1996

In the light of what has happened so far, I don't see how anybody can still think that it was OK to mess up Iraq, Libya, Syria...because we all see what we have now.:cry

I'm glad that you brought up the unnecessary and destructive Kosovo intervention, and I hope that Kieran takes note.

Why do you hope that I take note? :angel:

Because the U.S. intervention in Serbia was a major blunder based on lies. Billie knows this.

 

[calitennis127]

We have been over these many times before Cali...You live in your own world where unicorns drink water from the the rivers, Crusades did not take place people were not imprisoned because they preferred science over religion, the clergy did not rape boys because their "spiritual" religion forbids them to ignore what makes them a man in the first place.

You know I have heard many atheists say something like "I don't believe in the spaghetti monster, so I also don't believe in the Old Testament myths." The problem is that what pretty much all atheists nowadays believe in about history is just as fictitious as the spaghetti monster, yet far more pernicious. They justify their worldview with utterly ignorant beliefs about history.

Galileo?

If you actually wished to learn anything about the Galileo affair instead of blindly and mindlessly believing what you want to believe about it, you maybe would reach the same conclusion as the Victorian atheist biologist Thomas Henry Huxley who studied the Galileo affair closely and begrudgingly concluded that "the Church had the better of it". He was an opponent of the Church theologically, but he admitted that the Church pretty much won the argument with Galileo.

The Crusades?

You mean the Christian response to centuries of Islamic aggression? What exactly was so terrible about them?

Even if you want to say that they were "religious wars" in a pejorative sense, there have been thousands and thousands of wars for a variety of reasons, so it doesn't make any sense to single them out as uniquely bad.

Clergy raping boys?

Yes, this happened, but no one at all has shown that the proportion of priests who commit acts of sexual abuse is higher than that of the general population. The Cambridge historian Philip Jenkins has documented this over and over.

Oh, OK then...My mistake holding the "Clergy" who take a vow of celibacy to a higher standard than the "general population". I am a bit slow like that...

Do you give the ones who do live up to that higher standard any credit?

 

[Kieran]

You're right to hold them to a higher standard, Murat, but you would be wrong if you condemn the whole Church for their evil. Statistically, Cali is right, that priests are no more likely to offend than Jewish rabbis, Muslim Imams, Protestant clerics, atheists, and any other male demographic. You'll hear about it more because they're Catholics - and rightly, the Church should take the hits - but it's more a problem of the male population than anything religious, or to do with celibacy or anything like this...

 

[calitennis127]

In fairness, Putin is only compared to Hitler in the things which are applicable, but not in everything. The days of European tyrants should be long gone. I can see how oppression in the Middle East keeps the rats down too, however, along with the good people, and there's a dynamic at play here that's totally alien to the western mindset, so we play with fire when we interfere.

Latest news is that ISIS is one hour away from Baghdad. Broken's suggestion that the arab world is generally in favour of western help in this will be tested to the limits. I read that al-qaeda have allied themselves to ISIS. A clusterf*** indeed... :nono

The huge elephant in the room you are missing here Kieran is that Putin enjoys far more (more than twice as much support in most cases) from the populace he represents than ANY western leader.

Yet it is Western leaders who preach to Putin about the importance of democracy.....