Internazionali BNL d'Italia, Rome - ATP Masters 1000

[MargaretMcAleer]

Yeah, Schwartzman isn't having great results lately. Ran into an in form Karatsev and that was that. Speaking of Karatsev, can't say I agree with this prediction at all.

https://lastwordonsports.com/tennis/2021/05/10/atp-rome-masters-day-3-predictions-karatsev-medvedev/

Tennis.com seem more clued in and picked Karatsev.

https://www.tennis.com/pro-game/202...v-vs-daniil-medvedev-rome-second-round/93961/

If the conditions in Rome are rainy that will favor Karatsev and his heavy shots.,even more.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Novak marches on 63 76(5) over Fritz.
Apparently Novak apologized to the umpire for his earlier outburst.

This is why I had Novak on the honorable mention list for ATP villains...you just never know what he may get upset about

 

[Front242]

It wasn't as much as I was a fan as Federer appeared to be the BOAT with a graceful and effortless game, but it took a while for him to get there! Unfortunately for him by him hanging on so long, 2 players came along to eclipse all his accomplishments sooner than he got there; that's a fact! It took him several years to win his 1st major, but Nadovic were already tearing it up as teenagers; actually defeating him along the way to win their majors/Masters 1000s! Times certainly have changed!

I guess Roger is more like a steam boat these days and fast little fellas like Alex De Minaur are speed boats. Just taking the piss. All this talk of BOATS and GOATS.

 

[Jelenafan]

I was very surprised to see Toni Nadal coaching him as I thought he was only gonna coach Rafa and no one else.

I’m sure Toni is aware of the knock against him ; that his coaching success was all because he had a once in a lifetime natural talent to mold.

If the Felix camp came to him and were willing to work under whatever his conditions he dictated, (and at age 60 I doubt Toni would comeback full time to the yearlong tournament season grind) It would be very tempting for Toni to give another go with another talented player.

 

[Front242]

I’m sure Toni is aware of the knock against him ; that his coaching success was all because he had a once in a lifetime natural talent to mold.

If the Felix camp came to him and were willing to work under whatever his conditions he dictated, (and at age 60 I doubt Toni would comeback full time to the yearlong tournament season grind) It would be very tempting for Toni to give another go with another talented player.

Felix is a strange one. He can be very good at times, blasting winners at will and pure crap at others. It'll be interesting to see if he straightens his game out and if Toni Nadal can salvage something from the wreckage.

 

[Front242]

If the conditions in Rome are rainy that will favor Karatsev and his heavy shots.,even more.

Definitely, yup. I don't see Medvedev winning at all. The first preview link in my last post said Medvedev isn't the player he once was and Karatsev has a 2-0 h2h against him but the same is true of Karatsev and it's not like Medvedev is getting better on clay. Tennis.com rightly picked Karatsev as the winner and I'll be very surprised if he isn't.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Definitely, yup. I don't see Medvedev winning at all. The first preview link in my last post said Medvedev isn't the player he once was and Karatsev has a 2-0 h2h against him but the same is true of Karatsev and it's not like Medvedev is getting better on clay. Tennis.com rightly picked Karatsev as the winner and I'll be very surprised if he isn't.

I think Medvedev has shown that he is a mixture of his two grand slams Finals..both results should have been the same as AO2021..if you recall in the Cincy semi finals vs Novak..He was dead man walking until be decided to begin serving bombs and playing first strike tennis which made the game uncomfortable for Novak. If you push back a few weeks earlier Rafa beat the brakes off him in Montreal which was during the period when he had the best summer of anyone not named Nadal..push back a month earlier he got edged out by wacky Nicky..I think you may have overrated this player ( if I have type Ohs it was all via my smartphone)

 

[don_fabio]

Definitely, yup. I don't see Medvedev winning at all. The first preview link in my last post said Medvedev isn't the player he once was and Karatsev has a 2-0 h2h against him but the same is true of Karatsev and it's not like Medvedev is getting better on clay. Tennis.com rightly picked Karatsev as the winner and I'll be very surprised if he isn't.

I believe in Medvedev here. Karatsev played a lot of tennis lately and mental/phisical fatigue might be an issue. Daniil does suck on clay really, but in the war of the russians I will go with him. He might be more motivated than "I hate this stupid surface".

 

[the AntiPusher]

I believe in Medvedev here. Karatsev played a lot of tennis lately and mental/phisical fatigue might be an issue. Daniil does suck on clay really, but in the war of the russians I will go with him. He might be more motivated than "I hate this stupid surface".

Not me..give me Safin even at his advance age.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

If the conditions stay rainy,the weather forecast isn't great for the rest of the week,footwork is essential on clay in these conditions,that said,Medvedev and his footwork on clay leave a lot to be desired.

 

[the AntiPusher]

is anyone being annoyed by Arias tennis commentary on certain players..today he is ragging on Monfils ,yesterday it was Coco ..its too much.

I just listened to Jimmy Arias commentary during the Madison Keys Sloane Stephens match. I thought he was brutality honest especially about how Sloane has been lazy with her footwork especially whenever she wasn't engaged into the match. You may be correct but I Always found his assessment to be spot on .

 

[Moxie]

This is why I had Novak on the honorable mention list for ATP villains...you just never know what he may get upset about

There's always some version of an apology or fake apology/victim statement afterwards, but that's no excuse for how badly he berated that umpire. He dropped his serve, not the set (or the match, in the end.) And if he'd been playing Nadal, he'd have been perfectly happy to be playing with mud balls.

 

[Moxie]

I believe in Medvedev here. Karatsev played a lot of tennis lately and mental/phisical fatigue might be an issue. Daniil does suck on clay really, but in the war of the russians I will go with him. He might be more motivated than "I hate this stupid surface".

Karatsev's mental and physical fatigue very much could be a factor. May depend on which Medvedev shows up. If Dani is serious about making more headway at RG this year, (low-bar to face, to be sure,) then he should very much care about this match. I personally think it could be a very good match.

 

[Moxie]

You don't watch GS finals? pity,under the circumstances with the weather at RG it wasn't your usual spring weather in Paris,still I was happy with the outcome.

No one believes that Fiero didn't watch that match. It was the one he was referencing in his (gratuitous AND incorrect) slag on Nadal. He says he doesn't watch Nadal matches, but (ahem) he surely watches Djokovic ones. BTW, you said you were there. Sitting there in the cold drizzle must have been sort of miserable. Did you go back for the finish on Day 2?

 

[Moxie]

Well, Dimitrov did have some good moments and that nice little run where he won a Masters and the WTF. I mean, before that happened it looked like he would never win a big title and he landed two within a few months of each other. Of course the fact that he fell back down to earth after that speaks of his lack of competitive drive. But he hasn't been a complete waste of potential, and he did something that other underachievers like Monfils and Gasquet never did. But I'd be very, very surprised if he ever won a Slam - there's just too many younger, hungrier, and frankly better, players now. Before the Next Gen guys emerged, the only way Dimitrov would have won a Slam is by the stars perfectly aligning - say, Roger being hurt and missing Wimbledon, Rafa being taken out early by a big server, and Novak being taken down by someone like Wawrinka. And then, maybe, he could have done it. But he really had that one shot vs Rafa at the 2017 AO. He probably wouldn't have beaten Roger in the final, but it could have been interesting. But now, with all the young guys--plus Rafa and Novak still playing at a high level--there are just too many obstacles to overcome.

In a way Dimitrov is more Federer than Federer is. My biggest complaint about Roger is that he's not quite as great a competitor as he is a pure tennis talent (I mean, this is a quibble: the guy has had an amazing career, and is a great competitor - but I do see him as third fiddle to Rafa and Novak in that department). The heart-breaking 2019 Wimbledon final was the absolute case-in-point: He played an even match with Novak and had a couple championship points, but couldn't hold his nerves. If Roger were a bit more mentally strong, he likely would have won even more than he did. Dimitrov is like that, but in addition to being a lesser talent (although still very talented and beautiful to watch), he just doesn't have the competitor's mentality. With, say, a strong dose of Rafa's competitive nature, Grigor could have been a regular top 5 player, even vying with Andy for that vaunted "worst of the best, best of the rest" spot. Like Obi-Wan said to Anakin, "You were the Chosen One!" But alas, it wasn't to be.

I don't think we're in that kind of territory with FAA, at least not yet. And I've long said that the post-Big Four era would be more of a Wild West like the late 90s to early 00s, with no clear dominant player, and a couple of old greats handing around. Then it was Sampras and Agassi, now its Novak and Rafa (and maybe Federer for a bit longer). Kuerten almost became the next guy, but didn't have the off-clay game. Safin maybe should have been the guy, but he was, well, Safin. When I first heard about FAA back in 2017 (I think), I thought, "wait a minute, maybe he's the (Chosen) One!" But then concerns started to show up - first his heart issue, but then he seemed fine and tore through the lower ranks of the ATP tour in early 2019, reaching the top 20 right after his 19th birthday. That was the peak of the sense of him being the future top player and that was a year and a half ago and he has stagnated since.

I do think he deserves a bit of a flyer due to the unusual nature of the times, at least to some extent. But I would have liked to see him start this year where he left off, and then continue to rise from there. Instead, he just seems like the same talented but flawed player he was in 2019-20. Let's see how the rest of the year unfolds, though. I suspect as soon as we turn our attention away something will click and he'll start winning titles and going deeper into Slams. But I will say, if he doesn't reach the top 10 and win a title or three by year's end, I'll be disappointed.

Understand that my comment is not wholly about what they have or haven't done, but how the expectations on them affected them. Remember that I mentioned Zverev, and it's not like he's done nothing, and he's still only 24. But remember how long everyone was giving him such a hard time about not going deep in Majors? I thought USO 2017 was a particularly bad miss, since the bottom half of that draw was a complete land of opportunity. Dimitrov has some nice titles, but, as you say, he fell back away. (Oh, and on cue, he lost today.) I think we can agree that he lacks the fire in the belly. Peter Lundgren, who got Safin his 2nd Major, couldn't do it. And I thought Roger Rasheed who whip him into fighting shape, but nothing. Note that Dimitrov turns 30 in a fews days.

Interesting what you say about Roger's lack of fighting spirit. Obviously, it's relative, as you say, but he was the one, like Gatsy, for whom things "always came easy." And Nadal and Djokovic came up behind him, so they had a bar to hit. I can see why the Federer fans feel like there were a few left on the table when he was severely pressed, and his tennis, or the x-factor of grit didn't get him over the finish line. These are some that we can debate forever.

You very rightly mention Gasquet and Monfils as underachievers. Gasquet is the most forgotten one, on that score, if you ask me. He was pegged so early on for greatness, and I don't think it helped him. He's had a perfectly well-remunerated career, and he was once #7 in the world. Made the semi-finals of a few Majors. But think back to the 2005 RG round when he played Nadal and it was the battle of the teenagers. Such different fortunes.

But back to the youngsters who still have bright futures. I definitely subscribe to your Wild West theory as to what is coming next. There is no One next or even 2-3. Right now, it looks like a general scrum of some good stars coming up. It's impossible to know who will be the perpetual top 5 and GS winner, and who will be the Dimitrov/Gasquet of the group. We've been burned before. What I don't see is the transcendent star.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

No one believes that Fiero didn't watch that match. It was the one he was referencing in his (gratuitous AND incorrect) slag on Nadal. He says he doesn't watch Nadal matches, but (ahem) he surely watches Djokovic ones. BTW, you said you were there. Sitting there in the cold drizzle must have been sort of miserable. Did you go back for the finish on Day 2?

I knew that I was humoring him I know he does not like Rafa,that is his choice.It was the most bleak RG I have ever been to.Went back the 2nd day,it was well worth it,as Rafa fans we are used to 'suffering' in some way shape or form no?

 

[Moxie]

I knew that I was humoring him I know he does not like Rafa,that is his choice.It was the most bleak RG I have ever been to.Went back the 2nd day,it was well worth it,as Rafa fans we are used to 'suffering' in some way shape or form no?

For sure, "suffering" in one form or another. He takes us along on his path. But "suffering" that one live gives you a special medal as a fan. Here's a thing that gets lost in hyperbole: Rafa was 2 sets up and cruising in that match until it started to rain. Some people say that Djokovic was unfortunate that the match had to be stopped. But wasn't he fortunate that it ever started to rain, in the first place? In either case, it didn't seem to me that the next day was especially nice, just not raining. And Rafa got it done in 4.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

For sure, "suffering" in one form or another. He takes us along on his path. But "suffering" that one live gives you a special medal as a fan. Here's a thing that gets lost in hyperbole: Rafa was 2 sets up and cruising in that match until it started to rain. Some people say that Djokovic was unfortunate that the match had to be stopped. But wasn't he fortunate that it ever started to rain, in the first place? In either case, it didn't seem to me that the next day was especially nice, just not raining. And Rafa got it done in 4.

There has been a lot of conjecture in that match,sometimes in a match it is not always how you start,it is the way you finish.,regardless of the conditions.
Look at RG last year,granted the time was changed,though with the conditions and the balls,Novak fans said it was his year? Rafa could not play in slower conditions....well that was put to bed sharply lol!

 

[Moxie]

Va bene, lasciando stare quello spagnolo per l'italiano, for those who were complaining:

A lot going on tomorrow on the men's side:

I will not be waking up for Thiem v. Fucsovic

Sinner v Nadal could be interesting, but hopeful uneventful for the Nadal fans.

Medvedev v. Karatsev has to be the one to watch.

Tsitsipas has Cilic. Speaking of people who are on a slide.

 

[El Dude]

Understand that my comment is not wholly about what they have or haven't done, but how the expectations on them affected them. Remember that I mentioned Zverev, and it's not like he's done nothing, and he's still only 24. But remember how long everyone was giving him such a hard time about not going deep in Majors? I thought USO 2017 was a particularly bad miss, since the bottom half of that draw was a complete land of opportunity. Dimitrov has some nice titles, but, as you say, he fell back away. (Oh, and on cue, he lost today.) I think we can agree that he lacks the fire in the belly. Peter Lundgren, who got Safin his 2nd Major, couldn't do it. And I thought Roger Rasheed who whip him into fighting shape, but nothing. Note that Dimitrov turns 30 in a fews days.

Interesting what you say about Roger's lack of fighting spirit. Obviously, it's relative, as you say, but he was the one, like Gatsy, for whom things "always came easy." And Nadal and Djokovic came up behind him, so they had a bar to hit. I can see why the Federer fans feel like there were a few left on the table when he was severely pressed, and his tennis, or the x-factor of grit didn't get him over the finish line. These are some that we can debate forever.

You very rightly mention Gasquet and Monfils as underachievers. Gasquet is the most forgotten one, on that score, if you ask me. He was pegged so early on for greatness, and I don't think it helped him. He's had a perfectly well-remunerated career, and he was once #7 in the world. Made the semi-finals of a few Majors. But think back to the 2005 RG round when he played Nadal and it was the battle of the teenagers. Such different fortunes.

But back to the youngsters who still have bright futures. I definitely subscribe to your Wild West theory as to what is coming next. There is no One next or even 2-3. Right now, it looks like a general scrum of some good stars coming up. It's impossible to know who will be the perpetual top 5 and GS winner, and who will be the Dimitrov/Gasquet of the group. We've been burned before. What I don't see is the transcendent star.

As far as Gasquet (and Monfils) is concerned, it is hard not to think that there's something to the idea that the French have a tendency to roll over. On the other hand, I've never been really impressed with Gasquet. I mean, he was a very good player but he just never looked elite, and with the competition there was just no way through the gauntlet. He didn't only have the Big Four ahead of him, but also guys like Ferrer, Berdych, and Tsonga. He reminds me a bit of contemporary guys like Bautista Agut or Carreno Busta; maybe I'm misremembering, but like those guys there was never a sense that Gasquet would break through to true elite status (even if, I think, Gasquet was a bit better than those two).

I do think we know some of the perennial top 5 guys of the new decade: Tsitsipas and Medvedev will be ensconced for years, and Zverev, Rublev, and one or two others will be frequent visitors at least. And I think at least some of these guys will win Slams, but I think the big unknown is the next "One," and I think we both agree that there's no clear candidate.

I vaguely remember asking this before, but I only followed tennis casually in the late 90s and early 00s so don't remember much of Rafa and Roger before stardom. At what point was it clear that they were "the One(s)?" I can't imagine it was before they were starting to win at least Masters--Roger in 2001 and Rafa in 2005. It was obviously very clear that Rafa would be great as soon as he started cleaning up in the 2005 clay season, even before Roland Garros. And Roger was on the radar for a few years before his ascendancy in 2004. But my point is, until it happens it remains unknown. Even when Roger won his first Slam in 2003, no one expected him to be as good as he has been. It wasn't really clear that he was an all-time great until he won his second or even third Slam. Same with Rafa, and Novak for that matter.

At the risk of another long post, I'm trying to single out a point. I think there are stages towards "the revelation of greatness." There's the stage the young guns are in now, where they're all candidates with some more likely than others. Then there's the stage when one makes the big breakthrough--not just a big title or even Slam, but sustained dominance. At that point there's the question of how dominant they can be.

I think the problem we're seeing with the young guys is that while several have flirted with that second stage--notably Zverev, Thiem, Medvedev, and Tsitsipas--none have taken it up another notch to the third stage: the #1 ranking and sustained dominance and/or multiple Slams.

I think I've talked about this before, but I kind of see it as if there are thresholds that are crossed on the way up. There's entering and sustaining a top 100 ranking. Then there's the jump to regular Slam seeding (top 30-40). And then another jump into and remaining with the top 20. Then a jump into the top 10, then top 5, then reaching number one. With each threshold, players peel away and stall out somewhere. Someone like Borna Coric rose quickly and very young, but then got stuck in the "Slam seed stage" (and barely that). Rublev and Berrettini are stuck in the top 10 stage, but not quite able to get into the top 5. Tsitsipas, Zverev, Thiem, and Medvedev have stalled out in the top 5 stage but haven't reached #1 (yet). And, of course, FAA and Shapo are stuck in the top 20 stage, recently joined by Sinner (who still has that fresh quality of not getting stuck anywhere, which makes him at least seem more promising than others).

But I think we kind of have to mentally dial back to the end of 2019, before covid started messing up the works. Since then the tour has just been weird. It seems to be readjusting this year, but there is still an impact. My point being, if we kind of "staple" the end of 2019 onto the beginning of 2021, some of those stallings don't look as bad. Or maybe I'm being too generous.