Internazionali BNL d'Italia - ATP 1000 - May 11th to May 18th

[Front242]

All the hard work was for nothing.

 

[Kieran]

All the hard work was for nothing.

How? He fought hard and played well, and his level has improved. It's a step forward for both players...

 

[kskate2]

This performance from Andy was a lot better than losing to no names.

 

[the AntiPusher]

All the hard work was for nothing.

I would get banned for what I would really like to say to you. I hope Iona empty her "Trash can" on your absolutely thoughtless post. This comes from a person who admires Soderling as a tennis player. Nuff Said!:laydownlaughing

 

[DarthFed]

All the hard work was for nothing.

How? He fought hard and played well, and his level has improved. It's a step forward for both players...

You are something else when it comes to losing efforts. I will give you credit for being consistent :snigger

 

[brokenshoelace]

I think with this match both Rafa and Andy are back.

I think after the Dimitrov match tomorrow, we'll be thinking differently. And, especially, after Novak massacres him in the final.

Still not impressed by Nadal really. All this match showed was that he's still the ultimate competitor, which nobody ever really doubted. There is literally zero improvement since Monte Carlo. People will point out -- rightly -- that he was hitting the ball well in the third set. But again, that's just part of him being a competitor: As the match progresses, his will, experience, and attitude allow him to raise his level even when getting outplayed. People say "he finds a way" but that's a vague, abstract statement. How DOES he find a way? By playing better. However, playing better as the match progresses is one thing, and showing signs of improvement on a match-to-match basis is another.

Yes, he found the range on his forehand deeper into the match. Yes, he did most of the dictating in the second half of the final set. But that was the case against Simon, Youzhny, other matches in Madrid, etc... Improvement would be to actually play well from the start, without having to climb back into every match because, and I hate to break it to Rafa, he might run into someone who won't allow him back into the match. If Djokovic was on the other end of the court, we'd be looking at an evisceration.

Just relying on hitting your forehand into form throughout the match itself isn't going to cut it. There will be a time when your luck runs out.

Now, in fairness, that's why I still don't see him losing to anyone but Djokovic at Roland Garros, as the 5 set format allows the time to play better and "find a way," though obviously the chances of an "early" upset are higher this year.

Nevertheless, it would be disingenuous not to mention that it was an entertaining match (not as sloppy as I thought it would be). To me, Nadal-Murray matches are the most enjoyable out of any big 4 combination, especially outside of clay. It's a shame they don't play that often. However, there is a constant theme in these matches, and it's that if things get close, Nadal will be the one to clutch it out, and Murray will not be able to match the intensity.

There's a reason Rafa has won an overwhelming majority of their closely disputed matches. The deeper a set goes, and the more back-and-forth and tight it is, the more likely Nadal is going to win it. This used to be the case against Novak before 2011 too, where Nadal would win all of their close matches while Novak's victories were matches in which he was able to blow him out. That changed in 2011 as Novak played with more confidence, toughness, and was able to match him physically (another thing that Murray struggles with against Nadal).

Oh, and of course, I have to mention this:

Maybe, just maybe, I was somewhat reasonable when I suggested that a two-time GS winner will be more of a factor than a guy most famous for being I.Heychew's favorite player, even on clay. But don't tell that to anyone who argued with me in that thread.

 

[Kieran]

All the hard work was for nothing.

How? He fought hard and played well, and his level has improved. It's a step forward for both players...

You are something else when it comes to losing efforts. I will give you credit for being consistent :snigger

Somebody has to lose! It's possible to lose and still make headway in your game. I don't buy into the notion that every loss is a 100% disaster. Sometimes a loss gives a player the key to winning the next time. And sometimes a player plays bloody well but still loses. In that case, if his effort is also huge - and Andy's was - then give the guy credit for improving!

No?

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think with this match both Rafa and Andy are back.

I think after the Dimitrov match tomorrow, we'll be thinking differently. And, especially, after Novak massacres him in the final.

Still not impressed by Nadal really. All this match showed was that he's still the ultimate competitor, which nobody ever really doubted. There is literally zero improvement since Monte Carlo. People will point out -- rightly -- that he was hitting the ball well in the third set. But again, that's just part of him being a competitor: As the match progresses, his will, experience, and attitude allow him to raise his level even when getting outplayed. People say "he finds a way" but that's a vague, abstract statement. How DOES he find a way? By playing better. However, playing better as the match progresses is one thing, and showing signs of improvement on a match-to-match basis is another.

Yes, he found the range on his forehand deeper into the match. Yes, he did most of the dictating in the second half of the final set. But that was the case against Simon, Youzhny, other matches in Madrid, etc... Improvement would be to actually play well from the start, without having to climb back into every match because, and I hate to break to Rafa, he might run into someone who won't allow him back into the match. If Djokovic was on the other end of the court, we'd be looking at an evisceration.

Just relying on hitting your forehand into form throughout the match itself isn't going to cut it. There will be a time where your luck runs out.

Now, in fairness, that's why I still don't see him losing to anyone but Djokovic at Roland Garros, as the 5 set format allows the time to play better and "find a way," though obviously the chances of an "early" upset are higher this year.

Nevertheless, it would be disingenuous not to mention that it was an entertaining match (not as sloppy as I thought it would be). To me, Nadal-Murray matches are the most enjoyable out of any big 4 combination, especially outside of clay. It's a shame they don't play that often. However, there is a constant theme in these matches, and it's that if things get close, Nadal will be the one to clutch it out, and Murray will not be able to match the intensity.

There's a reason Rafa has won an overwhelming majority of their closely disputed matches. The deeper a set goes, and the more back-and-forth and tight it is, the more likely Nadal is going to win it. This used to be the case against Novak before 2011 too, where Nadal would win all of their close matches while Novak's victories were matches in which he was able to blow him out. That changed in 2011 as Novak played with more confidence, toughness, and was able to match him physically (another thing that Murray struggles with against Nadal).

Oh, and of course, I have to mention this:

Maybe, just maybe, I was somewhat reasonable when I suggested that a two-time GS winner will be more of a factor than a guy most famous for being I.Heychew's favorite player, even on clay. But don't tell that to anyone who argued with me in that thread.

Gosh, what a kill joy.. I feel like I just got trapped on a island with Stacy Dash and my mojo disappeared.:nono

 

[Kieran]

Broken, compare Rafa v Ferrer in MC and Rafa in the last two sets tonight, and the last two sets last night, and tell me there's no improvement. There's a huge improvement. And it isn't just "being competitve" because that's no use if your shots are landing on the service line like timid rabbits, like they were against Daveed.

If he played like this in MC, he'd have won that QF and maybe he takes the title. His intensity is up, he served very well in parts tonight, and after a wayward ( :snigger ) opening set, he grew in energy levels and intensity. He's much improved tonight, even on last night, especially if we take into account his lethargic start...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Two more quick thoughts:

Re: Nadal's improvement. Again, we've seen this before this clay season, especially this tournament. He'll finish a match playing better and people will say "positive signs," only to stink up the joint in the next match until raising his level again. That's not improvement. That's consistency, and not the good kind.

Re: Murray on clay. While he played well, I think that, quite oddly, playing Nadal on clay is easier for Andy as far as knowing how to approach the match, compared to playing against anyone else on clay. Let me be clear, I'm not saying it's easier for Andy in the sense that he'd rather play Nadal than someone else, or that he's got a better chance of winning. I'm saying it gives him a clearer idea as to what he needs to do.

That's generally his problem on clay -- he's still unsure as to how to play on the surface as far as positioning, movement, spin, aggression, defense, etc... Against Nadal though, he knows that his only chance to win is to play a certain way (which isn't all that different from the way he has to play Nadal on other surfaces), and he sticks to that plan. Another thing that helps him against Nadal on clay, is that, ironically, Murray's rally forehand works better than it would work against Rafa elsewhere.

If you watch many of their hard court matches and especially, their grass matches, Nadal actually gets the better of Murray in backhand (Rafa's backhand) to forehand exchanges. Murray just spins his forehand in while Rafa his his backhand a little more flat, takes Murray out of position, and wait for the opportunity to run around and get a forehand. On clay, Andy can afford to compensate by hitting his forehand with a lot of spin, ensure that he gets depth, and make it somewhat high bouncing, and Rafa can't hurt him as much with the backhand as a result.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Gosh, what a kill joy.. I feel like I just got trapped on a island with Stacy Dash and my mojo disappeared.:nono

So how did you view the match? Exquisite performance by Rafa? You think he stands a chance against Novak playing like that? Were you impressed with the WTA serving?

 

[Fiero425]

All the hard work was for nothing.

How? He fought hard and played well, and his level has improved. It's a step forward for both players...

You are something else when it comes to losing efforts. I will give you credit for being consistent :snigger

Somebody has to lose! It's possible to lose and still make headway in your game. I don't buy into the notion that every loss is a 100% disaster. Sometimes a loss gives a player the key to winning the next time. And sometimes a player plays bloody well but still loses. In that case, if his effort is also huge - and Andy's was - then give the guy credit for improving!

No?

I have no idea why it popped into my head, but I remember Ivan Lendl lost 2 consecutive warmup events ('85 Stratton Mtn. & Montreal) to John McEnroe, but turned it around to win his 1st USO in straights! Ivan pretty much owned John after that match, embarrassing him a few times; including at the USO a couple years later!

 

[Iona16]

Gutted. Just gutted.

Congrats to Rafa.

 

[Kieran]

Compare Rafa now, with the way he mooched about the court in MC.

Compare him now with the first week in Paris last year.

I see only positive signs, especially in how he raised his level. The guy must be knackered! He's played nine hours of gruelling tennis in three days, but he's determined and grimly sticking to the task. He was appalling against Ferrer and Almagro. Woeful. Neither of them would have beaten him tonight...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Broken, compare Rafa v Ferrer in MC and Rafa in the last two sets tonight, and the last two sets last night, and tell me there's no improvement. There's a huge improvement. And it isn't just "being competitve" because that's no use if your shots are landing on the service line like timid rabbits, like they were against Daveed.

If he played like this in MC, he'd have won that QF and maybe he takes the title. His intensity is up, he served very well in parts tonight, and after a wayward ( :snigger ) opening set, he grew in energy levels and intensity. He's much improved tonight, even on last night, especially if we take into account his lethargic start...

Ah, OK. So compared to his worst clay court career performance, a match in which he made 44 unforced errors in two sets, he played better. In that case I agree.

Unfortunately, that doesn't say much at all. See my point again, re: Improvement. His average level this clay season (which is higher than the level he displayed against Ferrer) isn't that far below what he displayed tonight until the final set, and that's NOT good.

I don't know why Rafa fans are the only fans in the world who are so sensitive about someone being critical of Nadal's game, especially when that someone is a Nadal fan himself. I talked about this back at Indian Wells, and was accused (not by you) of being too negative. I talked about it in Miami, and I was assured that Nadal was serving well and playing great because he crushed a bunch of overmatched opponents. Maybe I, like anyone who was watching his game closely, was on to something?

 

[Denis]

Compare Rafa now, with the way he mooched about the court in MC.

Compare him now with the first week in Paris last year.

I see only positive signs, especially in how he raised his level. The guy must be knackered! He's played nine hours of gruelling tennis in three days, but he's determined and grimly sticking to the task. He was appalling against Ferrer and Almagro. Woeful. Neither of them would have beaten him tonight...

Scoreboard-posting. If Rafa loses, he's aweful. If he wins, all positive signs.

As I said before: really curious about how Nadal will play against Dimitrov. Also because Im curious if Dimitrov finally has the goods to live up to his promise. He's been making inroads lately. Tomorrow will be a nice test for both of them, and definitely more so than today.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Compare Rafa now, with the way he mooched about the court in MC.

Compare him now with the first week in Paris last year.

I see only positive signs, especially in how he raised his level. The guy must be knackered! He's played nine hours of gruelling tennis in three days, but he's determined and grimly sticking to the task. He was appalling against Ferrer and Almagro. Woeful. Neither of them would have beaten him tonight...

Comparing him to Paris last year is irrelevant. Yes, he had a slow first week at RG last year but A) He was still playing better on average, and B) He was coming off a more convincing clay court season and a lot of momentum. There wasn't much doubt that he'd improve in the second week.

Talking about him being determined is not the issue. We KNOW he is. Who in their right mind would ever question that about Nadal?

He's played nine hours of grueling tennis... Yeah, and you don't think THAT's worrying? Nine hours in 3 matches... on clay...two of which against Simon and Youzhny. That tells you all you need to know right there.

Again, re: Improvement. Yes, he didn't play as badly as he did against Ferrer and Almagro, but read my post again when I talked about average level. Those matches are not the benchmark. Nadal would be in pretty big trouble of they were. His average level throughout this clay season is the benchmark we're comparing him to.

 

[Kieran]

Broken, compare Rafa v Ferrer in MC and Rafa in the last two sets tonight, and the last two sets last night, and tell me there's no improvement. There's a huge improvement. And it isn't just "being competitve" because that's no use if your shots are landing on the service line like timid rabbits, like they were against Daveed.

If he played like this in MC, he'd have won that QF and maybe he takes the title. His intensity is up, he served very well in parts tonight, and after a wayward ( :snigger ) opening set, he grew in energy levels and intensity. He's much improved tonight, even on last night, especially if we take into account his lethargic start...

Ah, OK. So compared to his worst clay court career performance, a match in which he made 44 unforced errors in two sets, he played better. In that case I agree.

Unfortunately, that doesn't say much at all. See my point again, re: Improvement. His average level this clay season (which is higher than the level he displayed against Ferrer) isn't that far below what he displayed tonight until the final set, and that's NOT good.

I don't know why Rafa fans are the only fans in the world who are so sensitive about someone being critical of Nadal's game, especially when that someone is a Nadal fan himself. I talked about this back at Indian Wells, and was accused (not by you) of being too negative. I talked about it in Miami, and I was assured that Nadal was serving well and playing great because he crushed a bunch of overmatched opponents. Maybe I, like anyone who was watching his game closely, was on to something?

No, I don't mind you being critical, because you're objective, and in general I agree: he's been off his game since Flushing Meadows, and I believe that's understandable, given how driven he was after Wimbledon. And he's not playing his best here, obviously, if he's having to go deep in the third against Andy, and dropping sets against Simon and Youzhney.

But by the same token, he's definitely upped his level since MC. And he looks more engaged with the task now, than he did in Miami, or MC. He looks like he's waking up. We've seen it before, his level looks shy even in Paris. Forget even about last year, where he was dodgy for four rounds: Remember 2010, when you and I were a little concerned about his level before the Soderling final, and then he won that with a great display?

I think he may not win Rome, because I think he's working too hard out there, but it's been a much more encouraging event than Madrid, and Madrid was even better than MC...

 

[Denis]

Exciting match but probably not a happy night's viewing for Nadal fans.

Are you Nuts! That was phoenomal tennis by Rafa and Murray.. the best match I seen by far.. Rafa is back.. If Rafa can regain his legs he will crush Grigor.. Finally , My top dawg is Back. Thank you Andy Murray for producing that type of tennis out of Rafa..

Eh, did you see the first set? .... uzzled

Nope. but I did see the 2nd and 3rd! What's your point.. its how you finish not how you begin

All the hard work was for nothing.

I would get banned for what I would really like to say to you. I hope Iona empty her "Trash can" on your absolutely thoughtless post. This comes from a person who admires Soderling as a tennis player. Nuff Said!:laydownlaughing

Seems like you're contradicting yourself...

 

[Kieran]

Compare Rafa now, with the way he mooched about the court in MC.

Compare him now with the first week in Paris last year.

I see only positive signs, especially in how he raised his level. The guy must be knackered! He's played nine hours of gruelling tennis in three days, but he's determined and grimly sticking to the task. He was appalling against Ferrer and Almagro. Woeful. Neither of them would have beaten him tonight...

Scoreboard-posting. If Rafa loses, he's aweful. If he wins, all positive signs.

As I said before: really curious about how Nadal will play against Dimitrov. Also because Im curious if Dimitrov finally has the goods to live up to his promise. He's been making inroads lately. Tomorrow will be a nice test for both of them, and definitely more so than today.

Well, up until about an hour ago you had Grigor as favourite to win RG ahead of Rafa so I'm obviously very nervous about him now...