Indian Wells BNP Paribas Open, CA, USA, ATP Masters 1000

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

the full vamos as rafa/wafa wins..zverev will recover after a bit of sobbing in the corner.

 

[Moxie]

what a collapse..looks as if rafa might squeak out a win out of nowhere.

It's not out of nowhere. Those who don't get Rafa's game and look at the UFEs as gifts don't see the attrition that often comes with Nadal's unrelenting pressure. Sure, Zverev gave some gifts, and some of that was being a rookie. He fell apart at the end, but why? A great win for Rafa and his confidence, and a learning experience for the young German.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

It's not out of nowhere. Those who don't get Rafa's game and look at the UFEs as gifts don't see the attrition that often comes with Nadal's unrelenting pressure. Sure, Zverev gave some gifts, and some of that was being a rookie. He fell apart at the end, but why? A great win for Rafa and his confidence, and a learning experience for the young German.

bloody hell, i didn't mean it literally ..it was just a quick comment between points/games..obviously it wasn't out of nowhere.

 

[Moxie]

You know, the most special thing about Nadal is his mental toughness. When people say that, it's not a knock or some kind of underhanded compliment..... his talent is a given at this level, but it isn't the best. Again he won when his opponent played better, that you know may be more important than mere 'tennis' talent.

I absolutely agree it's one of his greatest strengths, and I appreciate your saying that it's not a backhand compliment. And of course it would be a joke not to acknowledge his talent. This is why I think he can come back to a real force. He's lost a step, and his timing isn't as good, but, if the confidence comes back, the mental toughness, which is what was lacking so much of last year, he can still beat a lot of the field. Djokovic is a different question.

 

[Moxie]

bloody hell, i didn't mean it literally ..it was just a quick comment between points/games..obviously it wasn't out of nowhere.

OK, sorry, then. I'm just defending my player. Who catches a lot of flak these days. EG just called him a "shadow of himself."

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Phew Rafa,wipes face you make it hard for your fans at times Onwards and Upwards!

 

[Moxie]

@MargaretMcAleer That was a nail-biter. I'll be honest to say I wasn't sure about this match at all. (Even though I bet a little on Rafa in our betting thread.) Zverev is young, talented, and ticks all the boxes to trouble Nadal. And he did. To the point of an audible obscenity for the first time in his career. So this was just the kind of win that Rafa needed. Onwards and upwards, indeed!

 

[Carol]

The kid plays well and could have a good future but he takes to much risk with serve and shots, if his opponent doesn't play well he could win but if at other side of the net there is a Nadal with more confidence and playing well that risk doesn't work so well
After the lesson of the second set I thought Rafa would win the third easier but he made many errors starting with the first serve and losing a little bit the control of the match until he realized who he is and how to win which made his opponent to become more desperate making more errors
Rafa is coming back, vamos!!!!!!

 

[EdbergsGhost]

OK, sorry, then. I'm just defending my player. Who catches a lot of flak these days. EG just called him a "shadow of himself."

He is.. of what he was two years ago. Rafa fought to stay in there, but needed some significant tightness from Zverev to walk away with the win.

 

[Moxie]

He is.. of what he was two years ago. Rafa fought to stay in there, but needed some significant tightness from Zverev to walk away with the win.

I won't deny that he's not the player he was. However, I will say, he also helped to create the tightness in Zverev. He kept the pressure on the kid. He still has a champion's mentality. And there's still game in him.

 

[EdbergsGhost]

However, I will say, he also helped to create the tightness in Zverev. He kept the pressure on the kid. He still has a champion's mentality. And there's still game in him.

No argument there. That's what I meant when I wrote that he fought to stay in it.

 

[Moxie]

I think we all agree that, barring the unforeseen, Zverev is likely to play a significant part in the future of men's tennis. How high is his up-side? We shall see. He ran up against a level of tennis combined with competitiveness and focus that he hadn't seen. He stood up to it in the first set, completely wilted in the 2nd, and withered late in the 3rd. This is not unusual in an underdog. But he'll probably learn from the experience.

 

[Carol]

I would say that when Rafa decided to stay and to win it was when the kid got lost all over the court.
I think this next summer we will see the same Rafa that his fans likes to see but not his detractors

 

[Ricardo]

It's not out of nowhere. Those who don't get Rafa's game and look at the UFEs as gifts don't see the attrition that often comes with Nadal's unrelenting pressure. Sure, Zverev gave some gifts, and some of that was being a rookie. He fell apart at the end, but why? A great win for Rafa and his confidence, and a learning experience for the young German.

It's also fair to say that on match point, Rafa was out of position and Zverev hit a chest high volley into the net and that was not due to the unrelenting pressure from Rafa..... it was pressure purely from getting the biggest win of your career and he froze. Sure most of time his errors come from the pressure of trying to finish Rafa off, but at that moment the court was open and he knew he only needed to 'message' the ball into open court.

 

[Ricardo]

I think we all agree that, barring the unforeseen, Zverev is likely to play a significant part in the future of men's tennis. How high is his up-side? We shall see. He ran up against a level of tennis combined with competitiveness and focus that he hadn't seen. He stood up to it in the first set, completely wilted in the 2nd, and withered late in the 3rd. This is not unusual in an underdog. But he'll probably learn from the experience.

oh no, it wasn't the level of tennis he couldn't cope..... come on, stay sober i know its a great win of the old champ but this is.....delusional. Rafa's tennis has gone down the sink, and in the deciding set, it was clear who played the better tennis. Zverev was above Rafa until match point, period. What happened after was irrelevant, the kid played like a 1000th ranked player and beat himself.

Come on, a fan can be fair even if it doesn't make his/her idol look good. Zverev was absolutely the better player in set 3, he just lost to someone who fights 10 times harder than he can. And he choked.

 

[Moxie]

I would not say, and I don't think I have, that Zverev wasn't also the victim of his own pressure. But he was pressured the whole match from Rafa. And he got gifts, too. But for a few errant shots, Rafa might have taken him in 2. So you can't really lament 1 shot in the 3rd.

 

[Moxie]

oh no, it wasn't the level of tennis he couldn't cope..... come on, stay sober i know its a great win of the old champ but this is.....delusional. Rafa's tennis has gone down the sink, and in the deciding set, it was clear who played the better tennis. Zverev was above Rafa until match point, period. What happened after was irrelevant, the kid played like a 1000th ranked player and beat himself.

Come on, a fan can be fair even if it doesn't make his/her idol look good. Zverev was absolutely the better player in set 3, he just lost to someone who fights 10 times harder than he can. And he choked.

I didn't say Zverev wasn't better in the 3rd. He was, for most of it. As I said in my above post, the first set was tight, and without a few errant shots, Rafa could have taken it. That was a close set. The second was all Nadal. He could have won it in 2. But tennis is what it is, so they went to a third. Zverev was very good for much of the 3rd, but there is the moment when rubber meets the road, and Rafa took over. That's the way tennis goes. Sasha wasn't robbed. He was out-played. And I mean that very much in the way that tennis is a chess match. Zverev blinked, and Nadal didn't. In a tight set, it's about winning the points that matter. And Nadal did. You say he lost to someone who "fights 10 times harder than he can." (You say that like it's a bad thing.) At this stage in his career, I would say that's true. He definitely was choking at the end. But missed opportunities go both ways. And closing the match is very much a part of getting your champions head on.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

that's a match that'll be long in the memory bank. much needed boost for rafa/wafa, best play since last autumn (post usopen).

zverev was pinging some epic winners off both fh/bh..such crisp clean play. deffo the best I have seen him play.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

Tie break to decide the match.

strange match..and stan's ghastly miss with an overhead at 5-5(?) that should've had him with a match point. big win for goffin tho.

 

[Ricardo]

I would not say, and I don't think I have, that Zverev wasn't also the victim of his own pressure. But he was pressured the whole match from Rafa. And he got gifts, too. But for a few errant shots, Rafa might have taken him in 2. So you can't really lament 1 shot in the 3rd.

Of course he had pressure from Rafa, but that shot on match point was one where Rafa wasn't a factor. Rafa was out of position and the volley was a chest high sitter, he didn't have to worry about Rafa chasing it down (like so many other points), it was totally on his racquet. Saying Rafa could've taken him in 2, is an irrelevant revisionist theory. You are basically assuming that if Rafa took the first set, the second've played out the same(6-0?). Thats not the way the dynamics of tennis matches work. Zverev probably let off after winning a tight first set and didn't play like himself, so had he lost the first set he'd be playing with different motivation most probably. My point is, that match point can be singled out and put down as pure choking on Zverev, when Rafa wasn't a factor.