Hoops - NBA/Basketball Talk

[brokenshoelace]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

 

[calitennis127]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

The problem is personnel. They are 9-16 without Durant, 14-7 with him.

 

[calitennis127]

I think Dallas will make a couple of trades before the deadline to strengthen their bench and they'll be fine after that.

Good game between Chicago and GSW. Rose had such a weird game: 11 turnovers, 1 assist, and missed 20 shots.

He also scored 30 points (13-33) and hit the game winner.

Chicago is a tough match-up for Golden State because GS is frankly a soft team.

Come on Cali, as you said, it is the offense that matters, no? Who cares about toughness. GS should never lose to the Bulls with the most potent offense in the league...

Strangely enough, the other team GS lost at home to was...your favorite team, the Spurs!

On another note, you must have seen the Curry assist to Lee...talk about aesthetically pleasing. That was Magic there...

Overall, offense is more important than defense. That doesn't mean that defense has no significance.

Plus, the Warriors being soft undermines their offensive play as well. If a musclehead team like the Bulls bodies up with them, they aren't always going to respond well. I don't think the Warriors' offense is as good as advertised. The Cavs are now more explosive since the trade for JR, and it would help if Love would shot higher than 25% for once so they could really get going.

 

[calitennis127]

Chicago is a tough match-up for Golden State because GS is frankly a soft team.

GS just have Andre "Bogus" in the middle which is probably why you deemed them as soft. I dd not expect the Bulls to win that game and was unware that Noah had returned to the starting lineup. GS is a very excellent team that shoots well from the perimeter and plays good team defense. Drose will only get stronger and will return to MVP form if he stays healthy.

Cali, you have been right so far about the Cavs and your beloved JR but this is just the middle of the season. Now we shall see the real cream rise to the top although I dont foresee anyone beating the Hawks who have been brillantly modeled after the Spurs by their first year coach who was part of that organiztion under Pop for over 15 years.

I think the fragile "Bogus" is pretty key for the Warriors' success in the playoffs. They need a legit presence down low (and I'm not talking a David Lee), to get through the West IMO.

As for the East it will be interesting with the Hawks. They have a lot of very good players (maybe Horford is great) and they play well together as a team. But you already know my theory about playoff basketball...it is often great players that go out and win titles even against superior "teams". It has usually been the case in NBA history, but every once in awhile you have a team like last year's Spurs or the 2004 Pistons that play so amazing as a team that they can destroy the mega superstars.

No way the Hawks are beating the Cavs in the playoffs if LeBron and JR are healthy.....not a chance.

 

[DarthFed]

We will see. The East is pretty wide open for the first time since ??? I really don't know as it seems like it's been mostly one or two teams with legit chances every season for the better part of 10 years.

 

[the AntiPusher]

GS just have Andre "Bogus" in the middle which is probably why you deemed them as soft. I dd not expect the Bulls to win that game and was unware that Noah had returned to the starting lineup. GS is a very excellent team that shoots well from the perimeter and plays good team defense. Drose will only get stronger and will return to MVP form if he stays healthy.

Cali, you have been right so far about the Cavs and your beloved JR but this is just the middle of the season. Now we shall see the real cream rise to the top although I dont foresee anyone beating the Hawks who have been brillantly modeled after the Spurs by their first year coach who was part of that organiztion under Pop for over 15 years.

I think the fragile "Bogus" is pretty key for the Warriors' success in the playoffs. They need a legit presence down low (and I'm not talking a David Lee), to get through the West IMO.

As for the East it will be interesting with the Hawks. They have a lot of very good players (maybe Horford is great) and they play well together as a team. But you already know my theory about playoff basketball...it is often great players that go out and win titles even against superior "teams". It has usually been the case in NBA history, but every once in awhile you have a team like last year's Spurs or the 2004 Pistons that play so amazing as a team that they can destroy the mega superstars.

No way the Hawks are beating the Cavs in the playoffs if LeBron and JR are healthy.....not a chance.

Cali. not only would they beat the CAVS.. they will sweep them.. Dont worry.. you may get your wish.. I think they will meet in the first round..

 

[the AntiPusher]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

Fire the GM and the owners.. who signed off on the deal to get rid of Harden

 

[DarthFed]

Zero chance the Hawks play cavs in round 1. Cavs will be 5th at worst and Hawks will be #1 barring a major collapse. Come playoff time if Lebron is Lebron it might be hard not to favor Cleveland regardless of their seeding. Maybe Chicago or Atlanta would be slight favorites over them given home court and having a better all around team. But the Bulls don't have a great player either, there's nothing pointing to Rose becoming elite again.

 

[calitennis127]

Zero chance the Hawks play cavs in round 1. Cavs will be 5th at worst and Hawks will be #1 barring a major collapse. Come playoff time if Lebron is Lebron it might be hard not to favor Cleveland regardless of their seeding. Maybe Chicago or Atlanta would be slight favorites over them given home court and having a better all around team. But the Bulls don't have a great player either, there's nothing pointing to Rose becoming elite again.

How in the world is Chicago better than Washington?

 

[DarthFed]

It's close for sure, and i shouldn't have omitted Washington. They are a contender too and Wall might just be the 2nd best player in the East at this point.

 

[calitennis127]

It's close for sure, and i shouldn't have omitted Washington. They are a contender too and Wall might just be the 2nd best player in the East at this point.

The only thing that Chicago has on Washington is a better back-up point guard. Brooks is very good but Andre Miller is a liability and has been for at least 5 years.

 

[brokenshoelace]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

Fire the GM and the owners.. who signed off on the deal to get rid of Harden

We're not going to have this debate every time. They still reached the Western Conference without Harden. And you shouldn't need Harden to beat the freaking Knicks. You fire Scott Brooks, who isn't doing anything with such a talented team. I mean, I wish Harden stayed but they still have two top 5 players on the team and a robust squad. This season is inexcusable, regardless of injuries, and their stagnant uncreative offense.

 

[brokenshoelace]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

The problem is personnel. They are 9-16 without Durant, 14-7 with him.

You need Durant to beat the Knicks?

 

[calitennis127]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

The problem is personnel. They are 9-16 without Durant, 14-7 with him.

You need Durant to beat the Knicks?

When Carmelo is healthy and playing well and you're on the road, yes, that is very possible. The Knicks aren't an entirely bad team; they have talent. They just have horrible coaching and a bad scheme.

 

[calitennis127]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

Fire the GM and the owners.. who signed off on the deal to get rid of Harden

We're not going to have this debate every time. They still reached the Western Conference without Harden. And you shouldn't need Harden to beat the freaking Knicks. You fire Scott Brooks, who isn't doing anything with such a talented team. I mean, I wish Harden stayed but they still have two top 5 players on the team and a robust squad. This season is inexcusable, regardless of injuries, and their stagnant uncreative offense.

I completely disagree about Brooks. He gives his players freedom to be playmakers, which is more than most coaches do. Part of the greatness of Westbrook and Durant owes to their coach allowing them more freedom than many coaches would.

The real problem with the Thunder is a lack of talent offensively. They have two legitimate threats in the starting line-up, and Waiters can be very good at times. After that? They have absolutely nothing. They are offensive duds. That is why they lost to Memphis two years ago in the playoffs after Westbrook got hurt.

The OKC organization has just done a terrible job of drafting and signing players. Look at their player salaries right here:

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/roster/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder

They overrated Ibaka and Perkins miserably and their drafting has been a joke. Offensively their post play doesn't even deserve the title of "post play". Ibaka is a 7-foot two-guard with a half-decent shot. That's it. And they are paying him $12.3 million??? With Perkins getting $9.6 million??

How is that Scott Brooks's fault?

 

[brokenshoelace]

...the fact that their late game offense consists of nothing but ISOs. The fact that there is zero weakside action. The fact that they have decent shooters like Morrow who should get at least 5 open corner looks per game yet Brooks can't draw up a play for them. The fact that Russell Westbrook is a 25% three point shooter and yet his coach doesn't tell him to tone down the three point attempts. The fact that they have zero ball movement. The fact that their rotation and substitutions are absolute jokes. The fact that a 10 year old can understand that Perkins and Reggie Jackson can't play at the same time because they get killed defensively since Reggie can't guard anyone and Perk is way too slow to help while also getting killed on every pick and roll action. The fact that Jeremy Lamb can be the spark off the bench they've been looking for yet he gets zero playing time, which also hurts his trade value since now they can't get anyone for him.

Zero talent offensively? They have the most talented scorer in the league and another top 5 player. EVen with a bunch of scrubs around them, this team should be doing far better. And guess what? The talent around them isn't that bad. Morrow can shoot, Reggie can score, Waiters can score, and Ibaka has a solid mid range and even long range jump shot. It's true, they lack any sort of low post threat, but the above alone coupled with Russell Westbrook and Kevin freaking Durant, should be enough. Durant and Westbrook alone are 2 out of 5 players out there anyway. You add Waiters or Jackson and that's 3 out 5. I mean, do you know many teams that have this sort of offensive artillery?

I get it. You like offensive freedom, ISO offense, urban individualism (whatever that means) and all that jazz. But you're looking at Brooks from an extremely shallow and one dimensional perspective without getting into the specifics, which is often your problem in sports, including referring to the Spurs' offense as 3rd rate.

Scott Brooks is a mechanical, systematic coach. He can't draw up a play to save his life (which is why every final Thunder shot is a contested 3 with Durant fading away from the basket, or an awful Russ pull up 3), his substitutions are not game-specific, they're just programmed. EVERY 4th quarter will start with Durant and Westbrook on the bench until around the 8 minute-mark, no matter the situation. So you're playing 4 minutes with Perkins, Collison and the rest, and guess what, that happens to be exactly when OKC lose leads or the get significantly behind on the scoreboard. He also ran Durant to the ground last year, and kept him playing late in the season, to the point where he had nothing left for the playoffs, and it showed against the Spurs.

If OKC are up by over 4 points and 5 minutes are remaining in the 4th, EVERY possession will consist of milking the clock with Westbrook dribbling the ball for about 15 seconds, before running a basic high pick and roll or throwing it to the Durant on the right block. That is terrible offense, and that's how they lose leads. They stop playing their game.

Listen, I appreciate letting talented offensive players be creative. When you have Durant and Westbrook, you can't play like the Spurs, nor should you try. But no matter how good these guys are, you can't just rely upon them with zero coaching, especially late in the game, because nobody will make every shot, especially when it's just them creating it off the dribble. Jordan and Kobe were awesome one on one players, but they played in a system that allowed them to flourish. There's a reason Jordan wasn't winning before Phil Jackson. Brooks has an all-time great on his hands, in addition to one of the best guards of this era, and he's not making the most of them.

 

[brokenshoelace]

The problem is personnel. They are 9-16 without Durant, 14-7 with him.

You need Durant to beat the Knicks?

When Carmelo is healthy and playing well and you're on the road, yes, that is very possible. The Knicks aren't an entirely bad team; they have talent. They just have horrible coaching and a bad scheme.

Did they stop having a bad coach and a bad scheme against OKC?

 

[calitennis127]

You need Durant to beat the Knicks?

When Carmelo is healthy and playing well and you're on the road, yes, that is very possible. The Knicks aren't an entirely bad team; they have talent. They just have horrible coaching and a bad scheme.

Did they stop having a bad coach and a bad scheme against OKC?

No, but when you have Carmelo Anthony and Tim Hardaway Jr. and Jose Calderon, you're going to occasionally put some points on the board in a formidable way.

OKC minus Durant is like a tennis player trying to play without holding his racquet.

 

[the AntiPusher]

OKC lost to the Knicks. Please fire Scoot Brooks already.

Fire the GM and the owners.. who signed off on the deal to get rid of Harden

We're not going to have this debate every time. They still reached the Western Conference without Harden. And you shouldn't need Harden to beat the freaking Knicks. You fire Scott Brooks, who isn't doing anything with such a talented team. I mean, I wish Harden stayed but they still have two top 5 players on the team and a robust squad. This season is inexcusable, regardless of injuries, and their stagnant uncreative offense.

Okay..BS. let me see i can take you down a road where you can see what an enourmous blunder that was made by OKC

The 90-93 Bulls.. that team was solidifed by Jordan, Pippen and Horace Grant.. I would dare say that Westbrook , Durant and Harden was that talented on defense but offense it was definitely a match.. In Chicago, forner NBA coach Dick Versace labled them the "dopermans" on defense because the way they constantly trapped the opponents with their defense that coaches called a diamond (box).. My thought is that you felt that maybe OKC could have defense similar that would be anchored by Serge.. BS.. Serge is a good defender but he isnt an exceptional jumper like Horace Grant was or could move his feet as quickly as Rodman.. As for Scott Brooks.. someone has to take the blame.. I have questioned a few of his strategic moves However.. OKC is running out of time and may need to rebuild around Durant and Westbrook if they can keep them together

Trust me BS, Cali and I are correct on this one.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Wait, when did I ever say OKC wouldn't be better off with Harden? Of course they'd be a better team. But my point is, is this an excuse every single time they lose? Their team as it is right now still has 2 top 5 players, which is more than any team in the NBA can claim, and more importantly, even with Westbrook alone, they should still beat the Knicks. I'm not going to watch OKC lose to the Knicks and think "Oh, if only Harden was there," I'm going to think "what the hell is wrong with this team!?"

As far as Harden goes, OKC had two options: Either go over the salary cap (and keep in mind this was right after Harden's awful final series against Miami), or let go of Ibaka. The thing is, while Harden was a great player back then, he wasn't the current James Harden, and I don't think he ever would have turned out to be had he stayed in OKC because he always would have played third fiddle. I still think he would have been worth keeping at least one more year (but then OKC would have risked losing him for nothing in the free agency) and see how things would have went. But you can't give up Ibaka under any circumstances because then you A) wouldn't have gotten a draft pick to get Steve Adams which means that B) Your front line would consist of Perkins and Collison. No team is ever going to win with these two.

Admittedly where Sam Presty screwed up is by basically immediately giving up on the thought of keeping Harden instead of trying to find ways around the situation (be it by freeing up salary cap or any other means). He should have had the foresight, and that's a mistake he'll have to deal with for the foreseeable future.