Greatest Upset in Recent History

[Ricardo]

Too late...he started.

@Twisted: I don't agree with Isabelle's characterization, but there's no reason for you, either, to hold the old line that there was nothing wrong with Nadal in the spring of '09, which doesn't have to take at all away from what Soderling did, or excuse Rafa's loss. But now that we're this much farther down the road we have the benefit of hindsight, and it is possible to mitigate our previous opinions. For example, I thought Roger was just gaming when he took a MTO v. Safin in the AO '05 SF, to have his back rubbed. But now I can believe that that was early signs of an issue that has troubled him. Surely you saw Nadal's knees taped much of 08 and 09, and you must believe now that he has chronic tendonitis. So he was playing with knee problems. Still, he might have gotten all the way through, if Robbie hadn't clipped him.

Soderling played one of the best matches of his career to beat Nadal that day, with the other one being the one he played to beat Roger the next year. It was a perfect storm of circumstances, IMO, the biggest being Robin's game. Another was the venom that he brought after that contentious match in Rome, which was far closer than the scoreline indicated; yet another was that it was heavy and chilly that day. Rafa didn't lose because his knees were bad. But he stopped after that because they were a mess, and he needed to take care of them...he was just going to keep playing on them until they gave out (which he says he didn't believe at the time,) or until someone beat him and he was forced to deal with them, which is what happened. In any case, he took the biggest scalp in tennis at that time: Rafa at RG. And everyone was shocked.

By the same token, Querrey played a really good match to get Novak on Sat. I don't think it takes anything away from him to say what we all saw, which is that Djokovic was jaded. Whether or not there's a shoulder issue, who knows. Most athletes hurt a certain amount most of the time. It hurts a lot less when you win. But my point is that it doesn't have to be completely b/w what goes into an upset. Sometimes there are a few things going on at the same time. Sometimes not: when Rafa lost to Kyrgios (W) and Roger to Cilic (USO) in '14, it was because each was just hit off the court.

you thought Roger was 'gaming' because you don't like the guy, simply. Federer is a fair player by anybody's standard, no on-court coaching, stalling time etc, he has no history of using such tactics so there is no reason to think of gaming.....unless you are biased.

it is obvious though that players are mostly playing with injuries, it's part of the game. very few players can claim to be 100% healthy most of the time, but they just carry on. It's a long season by any standard (compared to other sports), it actually matters less to players whether they are 'injured' after a loss, than to fans who feel the need to justifying something. They are professionals, winning is everything so attributing a loss to injury or not isn't a priority. It's much more important for them to do better the next tournament.

 

[Moxie]

you thought Roger was 'gaming' because you don't like the guy, simply. Federer is a fair player by anybody's standard, no on-court coaching, stalling time etc, he has no history of using such tactics so there is no reason to think of gaming.....unless you are biased.

it is obvious though that players are mostly playing with injuries, it's part of the game. very few players can claim to be 100% healthy most of the time, but they just carry on. It's a long season by any standard (compared to other sports), it actually matters less to players whether they are 'injured' after a loss, than to fans who feel the need to justifying something. They are professionals, winning is everything so attributing a loss to injury or not isn't a priority. It's much more important for them to do better the next tournament.

Not at all. Roger dropped the fourth set, after holding a match point, and then stopped play to get a hot stone massage. Given Fed's near-constant state of good health at the time, and Safin's well-known ability to self-immolate, it was hard to think of it as anything else. If Nadal had done it, people would still be talking about it as blatant gamesmanship.

 

[Ricardo]

that near-constant state of good health is what he wants to appear to fans who don't know any better. for certain players it's strategic to appear healthy as a way of holding a mental edge. considering the fact that Fed never retired mid match, injury or not (don't tell me he's never had one bad enough), one would have to believe that he genuinely needed it if he called for one.

there is a reason certain players get rep for gamesmanship while some never do. Surely Nadal wouldn't if he never abused time and used on court coaching (in spanish of course).

 

[Moxie]

that near-constant state of good health is what he wants to appear to fans who don't know any better. for certain players it's strategic to appear healthy as a way of holding a mental edge. considering the fact that Fed never retired mid match, injury or not (don't tell me he's never had one bad enough), one would have to believe that he genuinely needed it if he called for one.

there is a reason certain players get rep for gamesmanship while some never do. Surely Nadal wouldn't if he never abused time and used on court coaching (in spanish of course).

"One would have to believe he genuinely needed it if he called for one." That is naive, and fannish. You believe that Fed guards his health concerns and never lets on. Really? What about that mono claim, even though he never bailed on a tournament. He still talked about it as the reason that he lost in the '08 AO. And I believe he mentioned his back when he lost to Berdych in Wimbledon '10. And yet, if Nadal does it, it's gamesmanship. It doesn't occur to you that the reason you hear so much about Nadal is that certain Federer fans gin it up. Have done for years. There is essentially nothing egregious about Nadal's behavior that can't be put down to over-active forum character assassination, especially in comparison to others. Nadal is slow. Always has been. And he's late. To everything. (Makes me laugh that Mille has him endorse their $500K watch.) He's praised for his mental strength, but no one wants to know the preparation that it takes. For him, it's deliberation and slowness.

And what about on-court behavior? Doesn't that count? Who is the one that doesn't swear or smash a racquet? Only Nadal. Actually he got called for an audible obscenity recently, and he did complain to the umpire, saying, really?? I never do that. He did it once, and he got a warning for it. Federer and Murray are definitely on video swearing, and even the Serbian fans admit that Novak swears a blue streak, at least in Serbian. And they've all cracked racquets. You can complain of one player's behavior, but you'll then have to look at another's.

 

[Ricardo]

"One would have to believe he genuinely needed it if he called for one." That is naive, and fannish. You believe that Fed guards his health concerns and never lets on. Really? What about that mono claim, even though he never bailed on a tournament. He still talked about it as the reason that he lost in the '08 AO. And I believe he mentioned his back when he lost to Berdych in Wimbledon '10. And yet, if Nadal does it, it's gamesmanship. It doesn't occur to you that the reason you hear so much about Nadal is that certain Federer fans gin it up. Have done for years. There is essentially nothing egregious about Nadal's behavior that can't be put down to over-active forum character assassination, especially in comparison to others. Nadal is slow. Always has been. And he's late. To everything. (Makes me laugh that Mille has him endorse their $500K watch.) He's praised for his mental strength, but no one wants to know the preparation that it takes. For him, it's deliberation and slowness.

And what about on-court behavior? Doesn't that count? Who is the one that doesn't swear or smash a racquet? Only Nadal. Actually he got called for an audible obscenity recently, and he did complain to the umpire, saying, really?? I never do that. He did it once, and he got a warning for it. Federer and Murray are definitely on video swearing, and even the Serbian fans admit that Novak swears a blue streak, at least in Serbian. And they've all cracked racquets. You can complain of one player's behavior, but you'll then have to look at another's.

forum character assassination? so you genuinely believe that a player's reputation is earned by some internet posting? who is naive? you are so self-centred and self-absorbed that you believe some internet posters can have so much influence? geez look in the mirror Moxie, don't flatter yourself.

there is a reason why Fed was voted for best sportsmanship for so many times while Nadal wasn't, it's totally reflected by fellow player how they think of them. you can put your version of above events all you like, and put whatever description and explanation anyway you want, it really means nothing. And i judge such things not from some random internet poster's opinion like yours, but from such facts (that his colleagues think highly of him for example).

btw if i was comment on your opinion, i would say two things....it's generally silly and biased.

 

[Ricardo]

also as far as on court behaviour goes, swear or racquet abuse isn't nearly as important as you make it out to be. Players would put a lot more importance on the fairness of their opponents. you can be as polite as you like, it means jack if you are dishonest or worse, cheat. i know players don't give a damn if an opponent swore, but would be pissed if he got 'private' coaching from court side which could've affected the outcome.

 

[Ricardo]

Further more, you cannot suger coat slowness, deliberate or not. Players play subject to time rule so are used to be conditioned that way, they expect the server to serve within fixed amount of time (like 25s rule) so would make their preparation at such pace. a delay would cause them to have to reset mental preparation and if done enough times would naturally irritate them. what matters is, they are totally correct to expect opponents to comply with that. Delaying is simply not legit, intentional or not especially that can be subjective and can't be proven.

 

[Carol]

forum character assassination? so you genuinely believe that a player's reputation is earned by some internet posting? who is naive? you are so self-centred and self-absorbed that you believe some internet posters can have so much influence? geez look in the mirror Moxie, don't flatter yourself.

there is a reason why Fed was voted for best sportsmanship for so many times while Nadal wasn't, it's totally reflected by fellow player how they think of them. you can put your version of above events all you like, and put whatever description and explanation anyway you want, it really means nothing. And i judge such things not from some random internet poster's opinion like yours, but from such facts (that his colleagues think highly of him for example).

btw if i was comment on your opinion, i would say two things....it's generally silly and biased.

Sorry to tell you that you are the typical Federer's fan always looking for the flaws of the others players (and more who has beaten several time your fav) like the father that it doesn't matter what his son does he always is better than his friends .....
And talking about "sportsmanship"....who is voting?

 

[Ricardo]

Sorry to tell you that you are the typical Federer's fan always looking for the flaws of the others players (and more who has beaten several time your fav) like the father that it doesn't matter what his son does he always is better than his friends .....
And talking about "sportsmanship"....who is voting?

first i am nobody's fan, sorry to tell you that but i do not think about who i like or not like, when giving opinions.....unlike you. And sportsmanship, who is voting? are you new or something, it's voted by fellow players you got a problem with that?

 

[Carol]

first i am nobody's fan, sorry to tell you that but i do not think about who i like or not like, when giving opinions.....unlike you. And sportsmanship, who is voting? are you new or something, it's voted by fellow players you got a problem with that?

I'm not new but I doubt that the players are voting so many times for Federer, I heard that "sportsmanship" es el timo de las estampita.......
And yes, your comments obviously say who is your fav which I don't care at all but at least try not to bite the posters which don't think same like you

 

[Ricardo]

I'm not new but I doubt that the players are voting so many times for Federer, I heard that "sportsmanship" es el timo de las estampita.......
And yes, your comments obviously say who is your fav which I don't care at all but at least try don't bite with your 'opinions' not just the players, the posters too when they don't think like you

who cares what you doubt or not? your 'doubt' decides nothing whatsoever. anyone can cast any doubt, so what?

again i am no fan of anyone, but i do root for Fed today as it's possibly his last Wimbledon so i hoped that he did well. I rooted for Nadal at RG this year unfortunately he exited unexpectedly, as i also thought it might have been his last shot.

i can root for anyone on any given day, but of course i favour certain players more than others. I feel no need or desire to be someone's fan, as its ridiculous how people stop watching as soon as their player loses. i watch the sport, not the player. Good tennis is good enough for me, no point attaching your emotion to people you don't even know.

 

[Carol]

who cares what you doubt or not? your 'doubt' decides nothing whatsoever. anyone can cast any doubt, so what?

again i am no fan of anyone, but i do root for Fed today as it's possibly his last Wimbledon so i hoped that he did well. I rooted for Nadal at RG this year unfortunately he exited unexpectedly, as i also thought it might have been his last shot.

i can root for anyone on any given day, but of course i favour certain players more than others. I feel no need or desire to be someone's fan, as its ridiculous how people stop watching as soon as their player loses. i watch the sport, not the player. Good tennis is good enough for me, no point attaching your emotion to people you don't even know.

I like tennis too and that's why I'm around here even if Nadal is not playing. I like the good game and that's why I like Murray although his mind doesn't work well too often. I'm glad that Raonic has won because we don't see them (28 and under) getting titles. I don't think Fed will get that coveted "18" but I see Rafa still doing something good in spite of the bad wishes of his haters

 

[Moxie]

forum character assassination? so you genuinely believe that a player's reputation is earned by some internet posting? who is naive? you are so self-centred and self-absorbed that you believe some internet posters can have so much influence? geez look in the mirror Moxie, don't flatter yourself.

there is a reason why Fed was voted for best sportsmanship for so many times while Nadal wasn't, it's totally reflected by fellow player how they think of them. you can put your version of above events all you like, and put whatever description and explanation anyway you want, it really means nothing. And i judge such things not from some random internet poster's opinion like yours, but from such facts (that his colleagues think highly of him for example).

btw if i was comment on your opinion, i would say two things....it's generally silly and biased.

Did you notice that Roger took a MTO after he lost the 4th set today? And he spoke of injury in his presser? I wouldn't say that neither was valid, but just to point out...Just after we discussed it, and Roger takes the well-timed MTO.

 

[Federberg]

I like tennis too and that's why I'm around here even if Nadal is not playing. I like the good game and that's why I like Murray although his mind doesn't work well too often. I'm glad that Raonic has won because we don't see them (28 and under) getting titles. I don't think Fed will get that coveted "18" but I see Rafa still doing something good in spite of the bad wishes of his haters

Right at this moment I think Roger probably has a better chance of another slam than Rafa

 

[Carol]

Right at this moment I think Roger probably has a better chance of another slam than Rafa

Right at this moment Rafa is not playing :lulz2: but give him a little time, he will do easier than Roger who doesn't have too much time anymore

 

[Ricardo]

Did you notice that Roger took a MTO after he lost the 4th set today? And he spoke of injury in his presser? I wouldn't say that neither was valid, but just to point out...Just after we discussed it, and Roger takes the well-timed MTO.

well timed? it's much better timed if he did it before somebody served for the match.

 

[Federberg]

Did you notice that Roger took a MTO after he lost the 4th set today? And he spoke of injury in his presser? I wouldn't say that neither was valid, but just to point out...Just after we discussed it, and Roger takes the well-timed MTO.

Didn't he fall?

 

[Moxie]

Didn't he fall?

There was one before he fell. When he lost the 4th set, he called the trainer. He fell later in the set and called the trainer again, for the other leg.

 

[Ricardo]

There was one before he fell. When he lost the 4th set, he called the trainer. He fell later in the set and called the trainer again, for the other leg.

are you saying the MTO was a strategy to put Milos off?

 

[Moxie]

Not at all. I'm saying that someone like Nadal gets called for "gaming" when he takes a MTO, or calls the trainer, and yet some folks are convinced that Federer is a saint, so it could never be to put the opponent off. My point is, if one is going to be completely generously disposed towards a given player, one should be more generously disposed towards all, when reading in unprovable motivations. I personally think a cigar may just be a cigar, and a call to the trainer a necessary action.