Fedalovic Wars

nehmeth

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Going back to 2020 Novak has gained 7 more slams on top of that one without facing any opposition. That’s what I mean by “opportunity.” Roger had opportunity like that too, when Rafa was young. It helped boost his total, as well…
Without any opposition? There was no one on the other end of the court? Or the only opposition Federer or Djokovic faced was Nadal?

I would say there is a difference between facing Ruud in a final rather than Medvedev or Zverev. And Nadal is one of the greatest competitors you could ever face. At the same time to diminish the rest of the field by comparing them to a vacant court across the net from Djokovic?
 
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Kieran

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Without any opposition? There was no one on the other end of the court? Or the only opposition Federer or Djokovic faced was Nadal?

I would say there is a difference between facing Ruud in a final rather than Medvedev or Zverev. And Nadal is one of the greatest competitors you could ever face. At the same time to diminish the rest of the field by comparing them to a vacant court across the net from Djokovic?
Can you imagine a world where Novak might have lost any of those finals? Of course there were players across the net, but were they ‘opposition?’
 
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nehmeth

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Can you imagine a world where Novak might have lost any of those finals? Of course there were players across the net, but were they ‘opposition?’
Anything can happen Kieran. 2021 French Open Mole’ Musetti was up two sets to love. In the final Tsitsipas was up two sets to love. Novak was the first player in history to come back from being two sets to love down twice and still win a major. At the same tournament, he was the first player in 25 years to play a tournament the week prior to a major and win the major.

You made the statement without any opposition. I would say Ruud is less opposition than Medvedev and Zverev. I would say Medvedev and Zverev are less opposition than Nadal. There’s still no empty court on the other side. You can’t fault the champions for who they do or don’t face on their way to a championship. And when you are reduced to nuancing the quality of competition, you’ve been reduced to the Sampras camp when Fed surpassed their boy..
 
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Kieran

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Anything can happen Kieran. 2021 French Open Mole’ Musetti was up two sets to love. In the final Tsitsipas was up two sets to love. Novak was the first player in history to come back from being two sets to love down twice and still win a major. At the same tournament, he was the first player in 25 years to play a tournament the week prior to a major and win the major.

You made the statement without any opposition. I would say Ruud is less opposition than Medvedev and Zverev. I would say Medvedev and Zverev are less opposition than Nadal. There’s still no empty court on the other side. You can’t fault the champions for who they do or don’t face on their way to a championship. And when you are reduced to nuancing the quality of competition, you’ve been reduced to the Sampras camp when Fed surpassed their boy..
We know the quality of the opposition. We all used to agree on this when Federer was clicking W’s like confetti in the early 2000’s. We know it’s a comparative thing. There’s a player over the other side of the net but is he really a threat?

I have said this also about Rafa’s victories. You get Ruud v Rafa in the FO final, you’re better off to walk your dog…
 
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Fiero425

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We know the quality of the opposition. We all used to agree on this when Federer was clicking W’s like confetti in the early 2000’s. We know it’s a comparative thing. There’s a player over the other side of the net but is he really a threat?

I have said this also about Rafa’s victories. You get Ruud v Rafa in the FO final, you’re better off to walk your dog…
You know this! So why does it still sound like "sour grapes" when Novak wins yet again? There always w/b inequities when it comes to fandom! :facepalm:
 

nehmeth

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We know the quality of the opposition. We all used to agree on this when Federer was clicking W’s like confetti in the early 2000’s. We know it’s a comparative thing. There’s a player over the other side of the net but is he really a threat?

I have said this also about Rafa’s victories. You get Ruud v Rafa in the FO final, you’re better off to walk your dog…
Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe. Connors, Borg, McEnroe. Sampras, Agassi, ?. Would any of these guys be competition against Federer, Nadal and Djokovic?? No.
 
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atttomole

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We know the quality of the opposition. We all used to agree on this when Federer was clicking W’s like confetti in the early 2000’s. We know it’s a comparative thing. There’s a player over the other side of the net but is he really a threat?

I have said this also about Rafa’s victories. You get Ruud v Rafa in the FO final, you’re better off to walk your dog…
How about Pete’s victories?

I can see you miss the days of Pete Sampras when competition was stiffest. Those were the days with beasts like Agassi, Kafellnikov, Pioline, Washington, Tarango…….
 

atttomole

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Look, not with standing what Agassi has to say, and tons of comparing Sampras to Federer, I personally believe the Pete Sampras, at his best was almost unbeatable, especially in a hard or a grass Court. About the only guy would put in the same category on the services would be Federer of course
Sampras was great but he was not Federer, with all respect. Federer had a lot more. I think if they had played more matches, Federer was going to toy with him. Federer was a class player, while Pete was largely serve and volley, with a great running forehand, but nothing else.

Look at what happened when Sampras started playing against players with more variety. It was ugly against Safin, Hewit……
 
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Kieran

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Sampras was great but he was not Federer, with all respect. Federer had a lot more. I think if they had played more matches, Federer was going to toy with him. Federer was a class player, while Pete was largely serve and volley, with a great running forehand, but nothing else.

Look at what happened when Sampras started playing against players with more variety. It was ugly against Safin, Hewit……
You really have a chip on your shoulder about Pete Sampras… :lulz1:
 

Fiero425

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Sampras was great but he was not Federer, with all respect. Federer had a lot more. I think if they had played more matches, Federer was going to toy with him. Federer was a class player, while Pete was largely serve and volley, with a great running forehand, but nothing else.

Look at what happened when Sampras started playing against players with more variety. It was ugly against Safin, Hewit……

It's why I SMH so often when I hear this BS about the level of competition when winning a major event! Connors rolled over an old man in '74; Rosewall! Sampras did have quite a few freebies w/ poor competition in Major finals! Agassi had Martin & Ivanisevic! Rafa won easily over Ferrer, Ruud, & Berdych! You can only play who's in front of you! Novak's had his time of trying to overcome Fedal! It's hardly his fault he's the last man standing of the 3! :face-with-head-bandage: :astonished-face: :fearful-face: :yawningface:
 

Fiero425

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You really have a chip on your shoulder about Pete Sampras… :lulz1:

I think you've forgotten the circumstances of how Sampras became the GOAT! We were so desperate to be part of history, we anointed Pete the BOAT w/o a FO final on his resume! How could we have embarrassed ourselves with that notion until Fedalovic came along and wiped out all his records within a decade or so? Sampras will have to keep up appearances knowing the only record that will stand out for all time is his 6 straight YE #1's! He'd be a footnote if not for that! :face-with-hand-over-mouth: :fearful-face: :face-with-head-bandage: :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

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Man, these posts can be maddening. We cannot rewind the clock and place other players against Pete Sampras on grass or hardcourt circa mid-1990s or anybody else. We cannot bring wooden rackets back and force all of the current greats to play with the Jack Kramer or Donnay a or even a Wilson T 2000 and see how the fare. It is just impossible. What we can look at his how overwhelmingly dominant certain players were against their respective peers. Until Nole surpassed Federer on this front, nobody had a better record against the top 10 in terms of win percentage over a period of many years than the Swiss Maestro. That is just a fact.

From late 2003 up through the end of 2007 he was so head and shoulders above everyone else it was mind-boggling. No one had seen that kind of dominance in a long, long time. He one across all services in if it were not for that wonderful left handed Spanish bull, he would have one multiple calendar year Grant slam offense because he was that much better than everybody. Novak has pretty much gotten to the same point at various times in the last decade. Even though he wins, he does not dominate as much as he grinds out these wins and does what is necessary to win. He has a struggles, but his mental fortitude and stamina are his greatest attributes. He does not hit as many winners as a Pete Sampras or a Roger Federer, but he is clearly the best player of the last decade. His numbers are unassailable. He is without question the most accomplished player since 1968, male or female. I do not view the number of wins that Roger obtained 20 years ago in any less polite than I view the wins of Rafael during his peak or the wins of Novak over the last decade. They earned the intimidation factor through having mental strength to win over and over, year in and hear out, over many years. All 3 of them have beaten new generations of players, as well as those that preceded them. Novak is doing it for longer and his numbers will continue to improve.

I do not believe in this weak era thing as much as I think I may have 10 or 15 years ago. You look at the world around you for a 5 or 10 year. And you admire the great skills of the champions of that time. McEnroe is an all-time great, but his numbers pale in comparison to the big 3 or even his 2 main rivals from the 1970s. He did not have the longevity, but his peak was very bright and he is remembered for his creativity and amazing natural talent. When Jimmy Connors came along, we were only a few years removed from the game changing radically in 1968. He was in many ways the catalyst and he should not be criticized or minimized because he brought a new style of attacking game to the court and dominated. Ken Rosewall was like Novak back in the day--still a mighty warrior even into his early 40s. At the end of the day, he earned his spot against Connors back in 1974 and was trounced by the indisputable king of that time. People forget Connors finished as year end number one 5 straight years, which overlapped with the rise of the angelic assassin from Sweden. Are we to demean the accomplishments of that great warrior from the 1970s, Jimmy Connors, because he was simply so good in the mid--1970s? I don't think so.

When I think of Rafa and all he has done, are we to put an asterisk next to his name because two thirds of his titles and even more of his major victories were on the red Clay? Do his victories during this time signify that he only accomplished all of this because players were no longer Clay court specialists or grass court specialists or Harcourt specialists and due to that dilution of being particularly skilled on one surface (as was the case for decades) means that it was a weak era for clay court tennis and he scooped up titles because of that? What a croc! He is the most amazing player I've ever seen on a given surface. It has been magical to watch and, particularly on that surface. I am not going to minimize his accomplishments, but simply say he was the greatest I ever saw. Would I like to see the man from Sweden play the Spanish Bull on that surface? Of course, but that will be in tennis heaven and I think it would be a great match.

I have to get back to work, but this has been a welcome distraction. I look forward to your comments as I am sure this discussion will rage on for years to come. I suppose Novak will win a few more majors and masters events and maybe he will get close to 500 weeks as world number one and people will not really be able to say much of anything. If you place another 3 or 4 years near this level he is at NOW, he may likely surpass Rogers total and maybe even that of Jimmy Connors. After that, he will own practically every record there is. It is what it is and my hat is off to the Serbian Slayer.
 

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Man, these posts can be maddening. We cannot rewind the clock and place other players against Pete Sampras on grass or hardcourt circa mid-1990s or anybody else. We cannot bring wooden rackets back and force all of the current greats to play with the Jack Kramer or Donnay a or even a Wilson T 2000 and see how the fare. It is just impossible. What we can look at his how overwhelmingly dominant certain players were against their respective peers. Until Nole surpassed Federer on this front, nobody had a better record against the top 10 in terms of win percentage over a period of many years than the Swiss Maestro. That is just a fact.

From late 2003 up through the end of 2007 he was so head and shoulders above everyone else it was mind-boggling. No one had seen that kind of dominance in a long, long time. He one across all services in if it were not for that wonderful left handed Spanish bull, he would have one multiple calendar year Grant slam offense because he was that much better than everybody. Novak has pretty much gotten to the same point at various times in the last decade. Even though he wins, he does not dominate as much as he grinds out these wins and does what is necessary to win. He has a struggles, but his mental fortitude and stamina are his greatest attributes. He does not hit as many winners as a Pete Sampras or a Roger Federer, but he is clearly the best player of the last decade. His numbers are unassailable. He is without question the most accomplished player since 1968, male or female. I do not view the number of wins that Roger obtained 20 years ago in any less polite than I view the wins of Rafael during his peak or the wins of Novak over the last decade. They earned the intimidation factor through having mental strength to win over and over, year in and hear out, over many years. All 3 of them have beaten new generations of players, as well as those that preceded them. Novak is doing it for longer and his numbers will continue to improve.

I do not believe in this weak era thing as much as I think I may have 10 or 15 years ago. You look at the world around you for a 5 or 10 year. And you admire the great skills of the champions of that time. McEnroe is an all-time great, but his numbers pale in comparison to the big 3 or even his 2 main rivals from the 1970s. He did not have the longevity, but his peak was very bright and he is remembered for his creativity and amazing natural talent. When Jimmy Connors came along, we were only a few years removed from the game changing radically in 1968. He was in many ways the catalyst and he should not be criticized or minimized because he brought a new style of attacking game to the court and dominated. Ken Rosewall was like Novak back in the day--still a mighty warrior even into his early 40s. At the end of the day, he earned his spot against Connors back in 1974 and was trounced by the indisputable king of that time. People forget Connors finished as year end number one 5 straight years, which overlapped with the rise of the angelic assassin from Sweden. Are we to demean the accomplishments of that great warrior from the 1970s, Jimmy Connors, because he was simply so good in the mid--1970s? I don't think so.

When I think of Rafa and all he has done, are we to put an asterisk next to his name because two thirds of his titles and even more of his major victories were on the red Clay? Do his victories during this time signify that he only accomplished all of this because players were no longer Clay court specialists or grass court specialists or Harcourt specialists and due to that dilution of being particularly skilled on one surface (as was the case for decades) means that it was a weak era for clay court tennis and he scooped up titles because of that? What a croc! He is the most amazing player I've ever seen on a given surface. It has been magical to watch and, particularly on that surface. I am not going to minimize his accomplishments, but simply say he was the greatest I ever saw. Would I like to see the man from Sweden play the Spanish Bull on that surface? Of course, but that will be in tennis heaven and I think it would be a great match.

I have to get back to work, but this has been a welcome distraction. I look forward to your comments as I am sure this discussion will rage on for years to come. I suppose Novak will win a few more majors and masters events and maybe he will get close to 500 weeks as world number one and people will not really be able to say much of anything. If you place another 3 or 4 years near this level he is at NOW, he may likely surpass Rogers total and maybe even that of Jimmy Connors. After that, he will own practically every record there is. It is what it is and my hat is off to the Serbian Slayer.

There’s nothing normal about what Djokovic is doing right now and nothing normal about what you are expecting him to do in the next few years until 40 years old. Ask any fitness person and there’s no way that at 36 years old he’s outlasting 20 year olds physically week after week. One day the truth will come out.
 
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nehmeth

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There’s nothing normal about what Djokovic is doing right now and nothing normal about what you are expecting him to do in the next few years until 40 years old. Ask any fitness person and there’s no way that at 36 years old he’s outlasting 20 year olds physically week after week. One day the truth will come out.
Novak is 36. He played one tournament after Wimbledon and one tournament after the US Open, to allow for needed recovery time as a senior on the tour. So, your “week after week” statement, isn’t just weak, it’s incorrect. Plus, he still has all his hair and his body isn’t physically breaking down from PED use. What is the ’truth will come out’ you are alluding to?
 
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Kieran

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Novak is 36. He played one tournament after Wimbledon and one tournament after the US Open, to allow for needed recovery time as a senior on the tour. He has all his hair. His body isn’t physically breaking down from PED use. What is the ’truth’ you are alluding to?
So let me get this straight. Natural signs of ageing and hair loss is proof of PEDs, and unnatural ageing and the same fitness you had ten years ago is…natural?

My old man began to lose his hair aged twenty and was out of shape aged thirty. I wish he’d shared with the rest of us the secret of declining fitness, we all coulda had some…
 
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nehmeth

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So let me get this straight. Natural signs of ageing and hair loss is proof of PEDs, and unnatural ageing and the same fitness you had ten years ago is…natural?
Nope. My father played tennis until he was 93. He died at 99, in his chair, in his home, overlooking the mountains outside. If he had not gotten cancer, he might still be with me today. He rarely drank alcohol, hated beer and stopped smoking when the Surgeon General said it was hazardous to your health.

Novak has taken great care of himself, his diet, stretching regimen, proper amount of recovery after exertion. My father never paid attention to all of that, but he played singles until he was 74 (or 5), and usually against guys 15 to 20 years younger than he was. He was faster than most of them; his reflexes were better. Maybe he was taking PED’s and I just didn’t see it. I guess I should have opened my eyes.
 
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Moxie

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Man, these posts can be maddening. We cannot rewind the clock and place other players against Pete Sampras on grass or hardcourt circa mid-1990s or anybody else. We cannot bring wooden rackets back and force all of the current greats to play with the Jack Kramer or Donnay a or even a Wilson T 2000 and see how the fare. It is just impossible. What we can look at his how overwhelmingly dominant certain players were against their respective peers. Until Nole surpassed Federer on this front, nobody had a better record against the top 10 in terms of win percentage over a period of many years than the Swiss Maestro. That is just a fact.

From late 2003 up through the end of 2007 he was so head and shoulders above everyone else it was mind-boggling. No one had seen that kind of dominance in a long, long time. He one across all services in if it were not for that wonderful left handed Spanish bull, he would have one multiple calendar year Grant slam offense because he was that much better than everybody. Novak has pretty much gotten to the same point at various times in the last decade. Even though he wins, he does not dominate as much as he grinds out these wins and does what is necessary to win. He has a struggles, but his mental fortitude and stamina are his greatest attributes. He does not hit as many winners as a Pete Sampras or a Roger Federer, but he is clearly the best player of the last decade. His numbers are unassailable. He is without question the most accomplished player since 1968, male or female. I do not view the number of wins that Roger obtained 20 years ago in any less polite than I view the wins of Rafael during his peak or the wins of Novak over the last decade. They earned the intimidation factor through having mental strength to win over and over, year in and hear out, over many years. All 3 of them have beaten new generations of players, as well as those that preceded them. Novak is doing it for longer and his numbers will continue to improve.

I do not believe in this weak era thing as much as I think I may have 10 or 15 years ago. You look at the world around you for a 5 or 10 year. And you admire the great skills of the champions of that time. McEnroe is an all-time great, but his numbers pale in comparison to the big 3 or even his 2 main rivals from the 1970s. He did not have the longevity, but his peak was very bright and he is remembered for his creativity and amazing natural talent. When Jimmy Connors came along, we were only a few years removed from the game changing radically in 1968. He was in many ways the catalyst and he should not be criticized or minimized because he brought a new style of attacking game to the court and dominated. Ken Rosewall was like Novak back in the day--still a mighty warrior even into his early 40s. At the end of the day, he earned his spot against Connors back in 1974 and was trounced by the indisputable king of that time. People forget Connors finished as year end number one 5 straight years, which overlapped with the rise of the angelic assassin from Sweden. Are we to demean the accomplishments of that great warrior from the 1970s, Jimmy Connors, because he was simply so good in the mid--1970s? I don't think so.

When I think of Rafa and all he has done, are we to put an asterisk next to his name because two thirds of his titles and even more of his major victories were on the red Clay? Do his victories during this time signify that he only accomplished all of this because players were no longer Clay court specialists or grass court specialists or Harcourt specialists and due to that dilution of being particularly skilled on one surface (as was the case for decades) means that it was a weak era for clay court tennis and he scooped up titles because of that? What a croc! He is the most amazing player I've ever seen on a given surface. It has been magical to watch and, particularly on that surface. I am not going to minimize his accomplishments, but simply say he was the greatest I ever saw. Would I like to see the man from Sweden play the Spanish Bull on that surface? Of course, but that will be in tennis heaven and I think it would be a great match.

I have to get back to work, but this has been a welcome distraction. I look forward to your comments as I am sure this discussion will rage on for years to come. I suppose Novak will win a few more majors and masters events and maybe he will get close to 500 weeks as world number one and people will not really be able to say much of anything. If you place another 3 or 4 years near this level he is at NOW, he may likely surpass Rogers total and maybe even that of Jimmy Connors. After that, he will own practically every record there is. It is what it is and my hat is off to the Serbian Slayer.
Great post, Shawn. You lay out the great argument for why there can never be one GOAT. I do believe you're right that we'll be debating all of this for years to come.

Obviously, you're being ironic to suggest an asterisk on Rafa's gaudy clay numbers, but he did have Roger and Novak to deal with, and they were no slouches on clay. And, there were plenty of great Spaniards in the mix, amongst others. Also, of all the surfaces, clay is the hardest to change. But I know that's not your point.

Djokovic has said he's gunning for all the records, and all the trophies. He's managed a lot of them.
 
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El Dude

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Haha, Moxie - I swear you'll be the last (wo)man standing in the GOAT debate, or rather the last (wo)man claiming there never can be one.

Let's be honest: the only folks that still say that are a few Rafa diehards. I think most Roger fans have ceded to Novak's overwhelming record, and probably most Rafa fans at least admit that Novak has the edge. My guess is that 99% of non-tribalists would say Novak gets the GOAT crown. So really, there are only a few holdouts...you, Kieran, anyone else? I mean anyone? (I'm not counting certain folks).

This is not to say that other players, whether Rafa or Roger or the always GOAT-esque Rod Laver, don't have elements of GOATness (that is, ways in which they shone as bright or brighter than anyone). In truth, Rafa's clay GOATdom (and surface GOATdom) may never be surpassed, and I'm not sure we'll ever see a player as beautiful as Roger or who dominated his peers like he did. And we'll never truly be able to compare Laver to Novak, because of the era gap....there's still a reasonably argument, imo, that Laver is at least coeval with Novak.

But when all is said and done, the record is the only solid ground to make a determination, and Novak's record = GOATness, or at least Open Era GOATness (and it will likely become only more obvious). This isn't Rafa vs. Roger, which can be endless argued. Novak has surpassed both in nearly every meaningful way, at least in ways that can be quantified.

In other words, the only way out of admitting that Novak is the GOAT is by playing an endless semantic game with the term "GOAT." As Novak continues to pile up the accomplishments and further distance himself from everyone else, it is looking more and more like sophistry.
 
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