Fedalovic Wars

[Kieran]

To be more specific, according to you, Federer's records are inflated because the field was threadbare. In addition, according to you, the field is now even weaker, which explains Djokovic's dominance. You want to convince us that Djokovic hasn't had to do much recently to win grand slams, but that doesn't apply to Nadal. When convenient, you will say that it applies to all the big 3. Nadal's titles were won playing against a tough field, right?

You’re not paying attention. You could be more specific, if you read what I wrote. I said that Rafa’s records are inflated too. I’m the only and first Rafa fan to say his FO record is inflated. I’ve said it often. You may have missed me saying that but that doesn’t mean I haven’t…

 

[Kieran]

And Kieran has flat out said he doesn't think Rafa has another Major in him.

A large part of me wishes Rafa was blessed with uncanny foresight and retired after withdrawing from Wimbledon last year. Since then he’s just been a notch on a lot of unworthy players tennis rackets, and I suspect he’s going to find it very difficult to come back, when he does. He might surprise me and reach the quarters of Paris, like Roger did at Wimbledon in 2021, but who wants to see the king decapitated on his throne by a nobody, like Roger was? Or worse, be hammered by Novak?

 

[Moxie]

A large part of me wishes Rafa was blessed with uncanny foresight and retired after withdrawing from Wimbledon last year. Since then he’s just been a notch on a lot of unworthy players tennis rackets, and I suspect he’s going to find it very difficult to come back, when he does. He might surprise me and reach the quarters of Paris, like Roger did at Wimbledon in 2021, but who wants to see the king decapitated on his throne by a nobody, like Roger was? Or worse, be hammered by Novak?

I hear you, brother. You're being rational. Not sure what he's got left in the tank and his joints. I don't blame you for saying it. I am hoping for a good last run, but we'll just have to see. He's already lasted his sell-by date by at least years.

 

[Kieran]

I hear you, brother. You're being rational. Not sure what he's got left in the tank and his joints. I don't blame you for saying it. I am hoping for a good last run, but we'll just have to see. He's already lasted his sell-by date by at least years.

He was very unfortunate last year. If he’d stayed fit for Wimbledon, he might have done what Carlos did this year. Novak has been a lucky champ there, inflating his record against non-entities. To think he has the same number Wimbledons as Sampras feels like a sacrilege of sorts.

Rafa might also have won the USO - his record there is fabulous. I’m not saying he’d have won the CYGS, but he’d have had as good a chance as Novak in 2021, and Rafa wouldn’t have been distracted by bawling his eyes out because the fans clapped their hands. He was never needy in that regard…

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

He was very unfortunate last year. If he’d stayed fit for Wimbledon, he might have done what Carlos did this year. Novak has been a lucky champ there, inflating his record against non-entities. To think he has the same number Wimbledons as Sampras feels like a sacrilege of sorts.

Rafa might also have won the USO - his record there is fabulous. I’m not saying he’d have won the CYGS, but he’d have had as good a chance as Novak in 2021, and Rafa wouldn’t have been distracted by bawling his eyes out because the fans clapped their hands. He was never needy in that regard…

Rafa wasn't going to win Wimbledon. He hadn't won there since 2010, when he was 24. Plus, he almost lost to Taylor Fritz in the quarterfinals. Rafa was trending downward after the injury at IW. Outside of Wimbledon and the US Open, Rafa was 1-4 in non-slam matches during the 2nd half of the season.

 

[Kieran]

Rafa wasn't going to win Wimbledon. He hadn't won there since 2010, when he was 24. Plus, he almost lost to Taylor Fritz in the quarterfinals. Rafa was trending downward after the injury at IW. Outside of Wimbledon and the US Open, Rafa was 1-4 in non-slam matches during the 2nd half of the season.

Well we don’t know if he’d have won Wimbledon. His record there improved after they added the extra week after Paris, which suited him in his later years, and he was in superpower form in slams that year until he got injured against Fritz. He struggled in that match with an obvious injury, yet he was still good enough to win it…

 

[the AntiPusher]

A large part of me wishes Rafa was blessed with uncanny foresight and retired after withdrawing from Wimbledon last year. Since then he’s just been a notch on a lot of unworthy players tennis rackets, and I suspect he’s going to find it very difficult to come back, when he does. He might surprise me and reach the quarters of Paris, like Roger did at Wimbledon in 2021, but who wants to see the king decapitated on his throne by a nobody, like Roger was? Or worse, be hammered by Novak?

Kieran..Ralphy is only going to play if he can be Rafa. Are your thoughts that he isn’t going to be able to stay healthy or that he will not be able to compete at the level he needs to win at least RG? Sorry tented i didn’t mean to hijack this thread

 

[Kieran]

Kieran..Ralphy is only going to play if he can be Rafa. Are your thoughts that he isn’t going to be able to stay healthy or that he will not be able to compete at the level he needs to win at least RG? Sorry tented i didn’t mean to hijack this thread

I think he’s going to give a thousand percent like he always does but I suspect he’s going to play anyway if he’s not at his best level - and he can’t possibly be even close to his best level. And I think this is fine, it’s his right and he’s earned it, but I’d hate for him to finish his career anonymously losing to some nobody early in Paris, giving them an asterisk in the history books. It’s selfish of me, I know, because he deserves to go out on court and not in the doctors room, but Rafa hasn’t been Rafa the champ and potential champ since Wimbledon 4th round last year.

I don’t think he’ll play if he’s not 100% fit, no. He’ll have to start thinking of long term damage to his body.

The ideal endings for me were Bjorn and Pete. Both ending their careers as unbeaten champions, which Rafa can also still do..

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think he’s going to give a thousand percent like he always does but I suspect he’s going to play anyway if he’s not at his best level - and he can’t possibly be even close to his best level. And I think this is fine, it’s his right and he’s earned it, but I’d hate for him to finish his career anonymously losing to some nobody early in Paris, giving them an asterisk in the history books. It’s selfish of me, I know, because he deserves to go out on court and not in the doctors room, but Rafa hasn’t been Rafa the champ and potential champ since Wimbledon 4th round last year.

I don’t think he’ll play if he’s not 100% fit, no. He’ll have to start thinking of long term damage to his body.

The ideal endings for me were Bjorn and Pete. Both ending their careers as unbeaten champions, which Rafa can also still do..

Thanks Brotha.. Remember Toni has put in the caveat that if Rafa is able to compete and win . 2024 retirement will be postponed from the Toni tea leaves I have read over the past month

 

[Jelenafan]

I think he’s going to give a thousand percent like he always does but I suspect he’s going to play anyway if he’s not at his best level - and he can’t possibly be even close to his best level. And I think this is fine, it’s his right and he’s earned it, but I’d hate for him to finish his career anonymously losing to some nobody early in Paris, giving them an asterisk in the history books. It’s selfish of me, I know, because he deserves to go out on court and not in the doctors room, but Rafa hasn’t been Rafa the champ and potential champ since Wimbledon 4th round last year.

I don’t think he’ll play if he’s not 100% fit, no. He’ll have to start thinking of long term damage to his body.

The ideal endings for me were Bjorn and Pete. Both ending their careers as unbeaten champions, which Rafa can also still do..

Which shows how differently us fans react. To me both Bjorn & Pete were “bad” endings, I’d rather a player have definite signs they have slipped and lost as opposed to leaving potential Slams on the table.

To this day I think Pete regrets not trying Wimbledon one last time. Trying and falling short doesn’t hurt your legacy IMO.

 

[El Dude]

The ideal endings for me were Bjorn and Pete. Both ending their careers as unbeaten champions, which Rafa can also still do..

Evidently you forgot his awful "comeback" attempt in the early 90s. Brutal.

Anyhow, I will say this about Rafa. If there is anyone who can comeback in this scenario and win another Slam, it would be him. So I wouldn't completely give up hope. To be honest, if he makes one more run at RG next year, I'll be cheering him on next to you.

So while I agree with you that it is very unlikely that he returns to his former self, even the great-but-not-as-great 2017-22 version, as far as the whole tour is concerned, I wouldn't be surprised to see him be a real factor on clay next year and, if he's willing to consider the other tournaments as warm ups and play a limited schedule, be a real contender for RG. And who knows, maybe he'll do a Pete and go out hoisting the trophy. I'd love to see that.

 

[Kieran]

Which shows how differently us fans react. To me both Bjorn & Pete were “bad” endings, I’d rather a player have definite signs they have slipped and lost as opposed to leaving potential Slams on the table.

To this day I think Pete regrets not trying Wimbledon one last time. Trying and falling short doesn’t hurt your legacy IMO.

I don’t think either of them wanted to play on. Pete said that he didn’t touch a racket again for months - or was it a year? - after his final match. He was sick of it. Bjorn was also showing similar signs of burn out. He says that after the 1981 Wimbledon final he was surprised to find that he didn’t care about losing it, whereas defeats killed him before that.

In Pete’s case, remember 12 was the record and he broke it. He’d achieved what he wanted to and wanted to go out on his own terms, which he did. If he’d had a rival who was as great as him, or close, and was only a slam or 2 behind, I think he’d have played on. I imagine he often looks at the Big 3 with envy, in that regard, because Pete was built for that kind of terrain..

 

[El Dude]

And I agree that Pete had a storybook ending. Broken and wounded "old" warrior, pushes one more time to win his home tournament one more time.

 

[Kieran]

Evidently you forgot his awful "comeback" attempt in the early 90s. Brutal.

That wasn’t a serious attempt to dominate the game again. It was a bit Norma Desmond, but with a wooden racquet instead of a close up. Don’t forget he also played some tour matches in 1983 with nobody counts either because he wasn’t committed.

Anyhow, I will say this about Rafa. If there is anyone who can comeback in this scenario and win another Slam, it would be him. So I wouldn't completely give up hope. To be honest, if he makes one more run at RG next year, I'll be cheering him on next to you.

So while I agree with you that it is very unlikely that he returns to his former self, even the great-but-not-as-great 2017-22 version, as far as the whole tour is concerned, I wouldn't be surprised to see him be a real factor on clay next year and, if he's willing to consider the other tournaments as warm ups and play a limited schedule, be a real contender for RG. And who knows, maybe he'll do a Pete and go out hoisting the trophy. I'd love to see that.

Your lips to God’s Ears, brother! I’d like to see him go out an undefeated champ, not as a player who gave a Hurcacz an opportunity to straight set him with a 6-0 included, on Chatrier…

 

[El Dude]

That wasn’t a serious attempt to dominate the game again. It was a bit Norma Desmond, but with a wooden racquet instead of a close up. Don’t forget he also played some tour matches in 1983 with nobody counts either because he wasn’t committed.

Your lips to God’s Ears, brother! I’d like to see him go out an undefeated champ, not as a player who gave a Hurcacz an opportunity to straight set him with a 6-0 included, on Chatrier…

Like you've said, I think he'll only play if he thinks he has a real shot at it. Roger was the same in that he kept playing because he believed he could still win Slams and when he realized he couldn't, he retired. It was really only 2021 when it became clear that he was done.

So my guess is that he'll focus on clay season, and take it easy early on, building up to try to peak at RG. If he's smart about it, I don't see why he couldn't pull it off -- or at least have a real shot at it. He has three obstacles: His own health and fitness, Alcaraz, and Djokovic.

If he wins RG, I'm guessing it will be tempting to try again at Wimbledon and the USO, but I think we both agree that the right thing to do - or at least the storybook ending we'd both like to see -- is retiring on stage, holding that trophy. And again, I'd love to see it.

 

[Kieran]

He has three obstacles: His own health and fitness, Alcaraz, and Djokovic.

Let's be frank, the first of those 3 has been Rafa's biggest rival at slam level.

If he wins RG, I'm guessing it will be tempting to try again at Wimbledon and the USO, but I think we both agree that the right thing to do - or at least the storybook ending we'd both like to see -- is retiring on stage, holding that trophy. And again, I'd love to see it.

It's the romantic in us. That's why I felt cursed when he got injured last year at Wimbledon. He was having a great season, and even if he didn't win Wimbledon - and he might have - he'd have been a hot contender in New York. it's my firm belief that Rafa wanted to retire when the baby was born, but given the way the rest of the season panned out, he couldn't let it go. If he'd been fit and won the USO or Wimbledon, he'd be gone for good...

 

[atttomole]

I don’t think either of them wanted to play on. Pete said that he didn’t touch a racket again for months - or was it a year? - after his final match. He was sick of it. Bjorn was also showing similar signs of burn out. He says that after the 1981 Wimbledon final he was surprised to find that he didn’t care about losing it, whereas defeats killed him before that.

In Pete’s case, remember 12 was the record and he broke it. He’d achieved what he wanted to and wanted to go out on his own terms, which he did. If he’d had a rival who was as great as him, or close, and was only a slam or 2 behind, I think he’d have played on. I imagine he often looks at the Big 3 with envy, in that regard, because Pete was built for that kind of terrain..

Pete was great, but his game was limited. He didn’t try enough at RG. He lacked the killer instinct in my opinion. In spite of all the pain that Nadal inflicted on him, Roger never gave up at RG. You make Sampras seem mentally stronger than he was. He was an amazing player, however. One of the best fast court players ever.

 

[El Dude]

Let's be frank, the first of those 3 has been Rafa's biggest rival at slam level.

I know this is your narrative, but it ignores the fact that he's 6-7 at Slams vs. Novak since 2011, and 1-5 away from RG. You can frame it any way you like, but the fact is that for the last 12 years, Novak's had his number on hards and grass. But let's not go down that rabbit-hole again.

It's the romantic in us. That's why I felt cursed when he got injured last year at Wimbledon. He was having a great season, and even if he didn't win Wimbledon - and he might have - he'd have been a hot contender in New York. it's my firm belief that Rafa wanted to retire when the baby was born, but given the way the rest of the season panned out, he couldn't let it go. If he'd been fit and won the USO or Wimbledon, he'd be gone for good...

Who knows. I still think that retiring at RG, hoisting the trophy, is the legacy moment that would be nicest to see.

 

[Kieran]

I know this is your narrative, but it ignores the fact that he's 6-7 at Slams vs. Novak since 2011, and 1-5 away from RG. You can frame it any way you like, but the fact is that for the last 12 years, Novak's had his number on hards and grass. But let's not go down that rabbit-hole again.

Without wanting too deeply down the rabbit hole, it ignores no facts. You’ve ignored the fact that Rafa actually had a career before 2011, where he skipped many slams through injury. And he’s skipped many since. And in some he hasn’t skipped, injury was his biggest opponent.

Who knows. I still think that retiring at RG, hoisting the trophy, is the legacy moment that would be nicest to see.

We agree here. But you know what? I’ve been saying for a few years now that I’m ready for the next big stage in tennis. The Big 3 are bloated. Their records are ridiculous, including Rafa’s 14. In another sport there’d be calls for the FBI to look at it. It’s time for something new and I don’t mind that…

 

[Kieran]

Pete was great, but his game was limited. He didn’t try enough at RG. He lacked the killer instinct in my opinion. In spite of all the pain that Nadal inflicted on him, Roger never gave up at RG. You make Sampras seem mentally stronger than he was. He was an amazing player, however. One of the best fast court players ever.

Pete’s record speaks for itself. He couldn’t finish every season during his peak as world number one if he wasn’t a tough sumbitch. He also won 14 slams, which not only was the record, but was dominantly so compared to any players since Borg.

We shouldn’t think that tennis during the Big 3 era was the usual old business but magnified by improbably huge records. Tennis was different before this modern era. Reaching all 4 slam finals was exceptionally out of reach except obviously to Rod Laver, and Agassi - who was very fortunate - and I think Jim Courier. Lendl. Not too many players. I think Edberg too. It was incredibly difficult to achieve even this, when you count up the greats who didn’t get there. Now, Murray has reached all 4 finals and it’s not considered unusual.

The Big 3 have 4 Channel slams between them, something so difficult to achieve we have to go back to Borg. Winning both is so difficult that Lendl skipped his best slam - the FO - a couple of times in the eighties to be ready for Wimbledon.

Great players all have their priorities to achieve that they think will make solid their reputations. Pete had achieved all this by the time he retired. I’ll say it again, I get the feeling Pete would have loved to play in the Big 3 era, given the so many better opportunities they’ve had…