Fedalovic Wars

Fiero425

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OK, seeing as you are scurrying around trying to put out the flames of significance relating to Djoker's 23rd title, then by all means, start discussing the H2H between Rafa and Roger. Happy to engage ;)

As for GOATs, and seeing as we're bringing up old posts, you declared Rafa to be the Clay GOAT here:


Seems odd you dragged up an old post of mine, berating me for saying the same. Anyway fire away.

That's what they'll do occasionally! The desperation is real at times; esp. w/ the frustration of the changing of the guard! I'm proud of my contributions here and save a lot of it to my blogs so they're wasting their time doing it to me much! Sometimes I'm misrepresented, but I usually take time to correct it! So much drama on the message board over the current state of affairs! I don't understand it a lot of the time; facts are facts, stats are stats! :fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy::smiling-face-with-horns:
 

Moxie

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OK, seeing as you are scurrying around trying to put out the flames of significance relating to Djoker's 23rd title, then by all means, start discussing the H2H between Rafa and Roger. Happy to engage ;)

As for GOATs, and seeing as we're bringing up old posts, you declared Rafa to be the Clay GOAT here:


Seems odd you dragged up an old post of mine, berating me for saying the same. Anyway fire away.
I'm not "scurrying around." I post here all the time. You're the one that just popped up. I love you, man, but let's face it, you're the one who seems to have an agenda, all of a sudden. I'm just responding to other folks.

And what's wrong with my post that you cite above? It's pretty moderate. I resisted calling Nadal the Clay Goat for ages, until many just said that was silly. Brokenshoelace told me to stop being ridiculous, as to holding out on the "No GOAT" in terms of Rafa on clay. Would you like to posit that there is no GOAT on Clay, or that it isn't Nadal? I mean, we can go all the way back with that one. Calling a surface GOAT is nothing even similar to calling one person the GOAT in all of men's tennis. Tennis is played across multiple surfaces. I think we can discuss surface GOATs, within reason, and GOATs of an era. Pancho Gonzalez, if you like, and Rod Laver. But in this era, there have been 3 All-Time-Greats, and they are hard to separate. If you're ready to bin Rafa and Roger in favor of Novak, that's your choice, but I have made an argument for why each is the sine qua non of the other.
 
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Moxie

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Being acknowledged by you, the rest of baseball fandom, & sports' commentators should be good enough for Koufax & his family after 50+ years! In tennis, the true Greats aren't spoken of at all if even remembered! I personally think Tilden is right up there who owned tennis like no other for over a decade! Then there was Budge, Kramer, & Gonzalez! Laver cemented himself on a high pedestal b/c of 2 CYGS; 1 as an Am. in '62, then after being off the tour as a pro for 5-6 yrs., he did it again in Open Era tennis in '69! Rosewall gets an honorary mention due to his time rivaling Laver! Borg took over the mantle as the Greatest for a while taking 11 Majors in OE!
You make the argument for no single GOAT.
Hard to believe that led the recordbook until Sampras at 14! Federer broke all the records in less than a decade and I thought his status would be secure for years to come!
He broke the Slam record in under 10 years, and probably the weeks at #1, though not sure. Not sure about "all of them." But I thought you hated that. ??
It didn't last long w/ Nadovic beating him like a drum early & often! Now it's Djokovic at the top; even over Nadal! As much talent as there is in this new gen., I just can't see any dramatic change! The game is brutal these days and most of these players are delicate flowers compared to Fedalovic! END Rant! :astonished-face: :fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy::smiling-face-with-horns:
What are the chances you have ended your rant? I've heard that one before. :lulz1:
 

britbox

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I'm not "scurrying around." I post here all the time. You're the one that just popped up. I love you, man, but let's face it, you're the one who seems to have an agenda, all of a sudden. I'm just responding to other folks.

And what's wrong with my post that you cite above? It's pretty moderate. I resisted calling Nadal the Clay Goat for ages, until many just said that was silly. Brokenshoelace told me to stop being ridiculous, as to holding out on the "No GOAT" in terms of Rafa on clay. Would you like to posit that there is no GOAT on Clay, or that it isn't Nadal? I mean, we can go all the way back with that one. Calling a surface GOAT is nothing even similar to calling one person the GOAT in all of men's tennis. Tennis is played across multiple surfaces. I think we can discuss surface GOATs, within reason, and GOATs of an era. Pancho Gonzalez, if you like, and Rod Laver. But in this era, there have been 3 All-Time-Greats, and they are hard to separate. If you're ready to bin Rafa and Roger in favor of Novak, that's your choice, but I have made an argument for why each is the sine qua non of the other.
I don't need to "bin" anyone. All three are all-time Greats and have pushed each other to great heights. So, no I'm not binning anybody. Do I think Djokovic's achievements surpass the other two. Yes, by a little. And I mentioned the day before the final that casual observers will look primarily at the Grand Slam titles without nuance... as you will have noticed by all the GOAT headlines the following day. That feat has transcended the sport. Just because people give props and praise to an outstanding achievement, don't take it as personal dig at your idol. I just popped up?? :face-with-tears-of-joy::face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

Moxie

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I don't need to "bin" anyone. All three are all-time Greats and have pushed each other to great heights. So, no I'm not binning anybody. Do I think Djokovic's achievements surpass the other two. Yes, by a little. And I mentioned the day before the final that casual observers will look primarily at the Grand Slam titles without nuance... as you will have noticed by all the GOAT headlines the following day. That feat has transcended the sport. Just because people give props and praise to an outstanding achievement, don't take it as personal dig at your idol. I just popped up?? :face-with-tears-of-joy::face-with-tears-of-joy:
I don't take it as a personal dig. Isn't that kind of a cheap way of diminishing a person's opinion? And Rafa is not my "idol," he's my favorite tennis player. There's a difference. Ask BratSrbin.

So, Novak's achievements surpass the other two. "By a little," as you add the caveat. Sure, fine. But there was a time when Rafa surpassed them both by two Majors, and, of course, the commentators proclaimed him the GOAT, but I didn't see most racing back here to support that. Look, I get how they sell excitement. And, sure, what Novak did was historic. What Rafa did after the AO and the FO in 2022 was historic, too. You will complain that what I'm doing is campaigning for Rafa's achievements, but why shouldn't I? If others will ignore or diminish them. I didn't see you back on the tennis forums talking up Rafa when he was 2 Majors to the good. And yes, you did just "pop up" again. You don't much post in tennis anymore, and suddenly you're all full of opinions. That's fine, and I'm always interested in your opinion.

I don't mind if Novak ends up with the most cherries at the end of the race. It helps to be the one who started a bit later, and saw what the stakes were most clearly. It also helps to be the most nakedly ambitious. He doesn't even pretend about that. Perhaps you wonder if Roger had been born just a few years later. He set quite a high bar, without realizing that he had 2 ATGs at his heels prepared to leap it. Do you really think that Novak is the singularly most talented of the 3?
 
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Jelenafan

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Perdona, pero inténtalo en inglés. La verdad es que no te entiendo. I'm sorry, but try again in English. That doesn't actually make sense in Spanish.

Para leer más tarde, pero gracias.
For goodness sake, Moxie is your spanish comprehension that bad? I didn't have accents per my keyboard but my spanish is impeccable, use a thesarus if your spanish vocabulary is limited : )

Pancho Gonzales was speaking perfect Spanish to you:

Just this once will help you out and translate the big words Pancho said to you:

Mujer=woman
tenista= tennis player
Mi apogeo = my peak
conquiste = vanquished
incluso = including
Rod Laver=Rod Laver
 
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Jelenafan

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I think such a player would enter the discussion. If they ever come along, I'm sure props would be given.

When I used to follow the Raiders in the NFL, a bright star called Bo Jackson appeared on the scene. Bo only played half a season as he was dual sport with Baseball factoring in. He set the NFL on fire. Unfortunately, a hip injury blew out his star. So, I get your point.
Bo Jackson!

 
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Nadalfan2013

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Nadal and Djokovic are much less in competition than Federer and Djokovic.

Nadal's strengths are clay & the FO with tons of decimas (literally God Mode Level), the Olympics, Davis Cup, the slam h2h of 21-11 vs Fedovic, etc. Sure he has the double career slam and many other stuff, but the point is that his strengths are completely different from Djokovic.

Meanwhile Federer's strengths are hardcourt/grass including AO & Wimbledon, weeks at no.1, ATP finals, etc. These are very similar to Djokovic.

So the fact that Djokovic is surpassing Federer in most of his strengths hurts Federer's legacy more. It's almost as if he's erasing Federer by outdoing almost everything he did best, kind of like what Federer did to Sampras with the hardcourt/grass stuff, weeks at no.1, etc. If Djokovic manages to win an 8th Wimbledon, then Federer would lose any argument left for grass too considering his h2h with Djoko there.

Nadal's strengths are too different from both and some of his records will not be touched by anyone. What Djokovic has done in the past few years hurts Federer's legacy way more so it's very funny to see some Federer fans rally behind Djokovic to put down Nadal. lol
 

Moxie

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For goodness sake, Moxie is your spanish comprehension that bad? I didn't have accents per my keyboard but my spanish is impeccable, use a thesarus if your spanish vocabulary is limited : )

Pancho Gonzales was speaking perfect Spanish to you:

Just this once will help you out and translate the big words Pancho said to you:

Mujer=woman
tenista= tennis player
Mi apogeo = my peak
conquiste = vanquished
incluso = including
Rod Laver=Rod Laver
It's true that the accent marks would have helped. I didn't pay enough attention, and, frankly, I didn't know you spoke Spanish, so pardon my lack of faith. I didn't realize you were quoting.
 

britbox

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I don't take it as a personal dig. Isn't that kind of a cheap way of diminishing a person's opinion? And Rafa is not my "idol," he's my favorite tennis player. There's a difference. Ask BratSrbin.

So, Novak's achievements surpass the other two. "By a little," as you add the caveat. Sure, fine. But there was a time when Rafa surpassed them both by two Majors, and, of course, the commentators proclaimed him the GOAT, but I didn't see most racing back here to support that. Look, I get how they sell excitement. And, sure, what Novak did was historic. What Rafa did after the AO and the FO in 2022 was historic, too. You will complain that what I'm doing is campaigning for Rafa's achievements, but why shouldn't I? If others will ignore or diminish them. I didn't see you back on the tennis forums talking up Rafa when he was 2 Majors to the good. And yes, you did just "pop up" again. You don't much post in tennis anymore, and suddenly you're all full of opinions. That's fine, and I'm always interested in your opinion.

I don't mind if Novak ends up with the most cherries at the end of the race. It helps to be the one who started a bit later, and saw what the stakes were most clearly. It also helps to be the most nakedly ambitious. He doesn't even pretend about that. Perhaps you wonder if Roger had been born just a few years later. He set quite a high bar, without realizing that he had 2 ATGs at his heels prepared to leap it. Do you really think that Novak is the singularly most talented of the 3?


Nobody is really diminishing Rafa's achievements. They are in the bag. If anything, it's Novak's achievements that are being diminished. He sets the bar for the most majors and a bunch of people seem offended everyone isn't talking about Rafa. That would be like a best man at a wedding standing up and making a speech about his own ceremony. I did "pop up" when Rafa broke broke the major record. Not that I ever left in the first place - I just watch minimal sport these days... and it has nothing to do with tennis stats ;)

The rest is What If's... yes, it took all three to push each other to greater heights. That is undeniable. After the first bloke ran the mile in less than four minutes, a bunch of others did it shortly after... it changes the mindset on what is possible.

The "Most Majors" title does have significance because that's what a lot of casual sports fans will refer to, above anything else. You can garner that from the news headlines. That was the point I was making from the beginning.
 

Nadalfan2013

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Nobody is really diminishing Rafa's achievements. They are in the bag. If anything, it's Novak's achievements that are being diminished. He sets the bar for the most majors and a bunch of people seem offended everyone isn't talking about Rafa. That would be like a best man at a wedding standing up and making a speech about his own ceremony. I did "pop up" when Rafa broke broke the major record. Not that I ever left in the first place - I just watch minimal sport these days... and it has nothing to do with tennis stats ;)

The rest is What If's... yes, it took all three to push each other to greater heights. That is undeniable. After the first bloke ran the mile in less than four minutes, a bunch of others did it shortly after... it changes the mindset on what is possible.

The "Most Majors" title does have significance because that's what a lot of casual sports fans will refer to, above anything else. You can garner that from the news headlines. That was the point I was making from the beginning.

Most casual sports fans will be much more familiar with the Olympics than what a slam or masters 1000 or atp 250 is, or whatever else tennis has to offer. What Djokovic/Nadal did on the ATP tour is cool but Nadal has gone beyond it and reached the pinnacle of sports all over the world, what every athlete dreams of:

Rafael-Nadal-Olympics-1024x576.jpg




:yes: :bye:

oiHbO7I892XBu.gif

djoker-olympic-smash-raquet-djokovic-angry.gif

novak-djokovic-racquet-throw.gif
 
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El Dude

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I look at GoAT discussions this way

With the survival of mankind in the balance:

Which QB you want for that last winning drive in the SB?

Which NBA player you pick to go up for that last winning drive?

Which soccer player do you pass to for that last goal?

Whst tennis player you want, for one match, for all the marbles?
The only problem here is that tennis is a bit different than those sports in that it is essentially 3-4 "sub-sports": clay, hard, grass, and back a few years ago, carpet.

The point being, my answer would be different, depending upon surface. On clay, Rafa obviously. On hards, Novak (although peak Roger would be tempting). On grass, I'm still going with Roger.
 
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El Dude

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I don't believe in a GOAT. If Novak is putting "a bit of daylight" between himself and Rafa and Roger, isn't that because he's had the space, in the latter years? Where was he in the great years of the Federer-Nadal rivalry? He's only 11 months younger than Nadal. Handy for him to to keep his wick dry until the other two were rather a bit spent.
To be fair, Novak reached peak level in 2011 while Rafa was in the middle of his very best span (2008-13). As I've pointed out several times over the years, Rafa in 2010 and 11 had pretty much exactly the same results, sans Novak. It is just that Novak jumped an octave, and Rafa didn't know how to play him at his new level. Otherwise, Rafa was every bit as good in 2011 as he was in 2010.

Now Rafa did adjust, at least on clay. But he hasn't beaten Novak off clay in ten years, since the 2013 US Open final, and his clay record vs Novak since then hasn't been hugely dominant - he definitely has the edge, but it isn't huge.
 

PhiEaglesfan712

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The only problem here is that tennis is a bit different than those sports in that it is essentially 3-4 "sub-sports": clay, hard, grass, and back a few years ago, carpet.

The point being, my answer would be different, depending upon surface. On clay, Rafa obviously. On hards, Novak (although peak Roger would be tempting). On grass, I'm still going with Roger.
More like a few decades ago, lol. Good choices for clay, hards, and grass. On carpet, I'm going with peak Pete Sampras.
 
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El Dude

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Ok, time to be sore a loser, but an extremely unpleasant one. By the way, I do admire, I do greatly admire, the two players that sit atop on the number of grand slam titles list.

For a long time my favorite player had more GS titles, and that was used as argument for GOATness, which I knew it was BS, but it was in favor of my favorite player, so why bother. Things have unfortunately changed, so I get a chance to annoy people. This is always fun.

Little mind experiment: assume that tomorrow some given player start winning all of his matches, all the sets that he plays, all the games that he plays. And it is all bagels. Once in a while someone can get to deuce, but that's all. Impossible, people will shout instantly. Yes, but it doesn't matter. It is a mind experiment, and its result will be regarded just as... a mind experiment, don't worry.

Ok, so this given imaginary player keeps winning matches for three years. He wins 12 majors in a row. All the masters, the WTF, etc. Then again, just out of the blue, he stops winning, and comes back to his previous level, around top 20. In the process he stays about 200 weeks as #1.

This guy, obviously, has played at the greatest level of all time. Nothing is even close to what he achieved, but still, by the numbers argument, he is out of the GOAT discussion. He is completely out, because, as people will quickly remember, 23 > 12. Also, in this period, he wins all his matches, but he does not meet some other players enough to reverse all H2H´s, so he is behind on that metric as well.

Oh, but this is impossible, this is not real. That is precisely the point: even an imaginary, impossible player that achieves an imaginary, impossible feat, is out of the GOAT conversation, if you only consider the numbers argument. So, if this imaginary player, that for three entire years could not lose a single game, this player that was imagined, tailored to be the GOAT, is so clearly not the GOAT (by the numbers based argument), then... the only possible conclusion is that the numbers based GOAT discussion is empty.

Is there a substitute for the numbers based GOAT argument? Of course not. This is our best shot at an objective argument. Problem is that it is not enough.

The (total) numbers based GOAT argument, in the end, privileges span of career and consistency over everything else. We could try to define "domination" statistics, but we would need to chose one (or a few) over the others, and this would be... subjective. So, no, the numbers based argument it is still our best shot, but still not sufficient.

When you look at the sky, you look at the brightest stars, not the ones which have stood there long enough. It is not the total, accumulated brightness that catches the eye. It is peak brightness that matters -- and only when you are looking, by the way.
I like this, mrzz, though I will pull a few things out as caveats.

Regarding subjectivity, we're never going to avoid it - nor should we. Part of the fun is coming up with a solid subjective argument, but one that is backed up by (objective) statistics.

Meaning, it isn't subjective or objective, but both - and finding a good combination.

So in that sense, some kind of statistical formula that balances peak ("brightness") and overall career is what I've always tried to figure out. I've played with various formulas, and of course the subjective element is me deciding on what formula to use, and also how to balance peak and career. There is no perfect answer, but that's OK.

I also don't want to completely ignore career resume in favor of "brightness." The Big Three's incredible longevity is a major aspect of their greatness and what, I think, sets them apart from Borg and McEnroe, who shined just as brightly, but for shorter periods of time.
 
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Kieran

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Ok, time to be sore a loser, but an extremely unpleasant one. By the way, I do admire, I do greatly admire, the two players that sit atop on the number of grand slam titles list.

For a long time my favorite player had more GS titles, and that was used as argument for GOATness, which I knew it was BS, but it was in favor of my favorite player, so why bother. Things have unfortunately changed, so I get a chance to annoy people. This is always fun.

Little mind experiment: assume that tomorrow some given player start winning all of his matches, all the sets that he plays, all the games that he plays. And it is all bagels. Once in a while someone can get to deuce, but that's all. Impossible, people will shout instantly. Yes, but it doesn't matter. It is a mind experiment, and its result will be regarded just as... a mind experiment, don't worry.

Ok, so this given imaginary player keeps winning matches for three years. He wins 12 majors in a row. All the masters, the WTF, etc. Then again, just out of the blue, he stops winning, and comes back to his previous level, around top 20. In the process he stays about 200 weeks as #1.

This guy, obviously, has played at the greatest level of all time. Nothing is even close to what he achieved, but still, by the numbers argument, he is out of the GOAT discussion. He is completely out, because, as people will quickly remember, 23 > 12. Also, in this period, he wins all his matches, but he does not meet some other players enough to reverse all H2H´s, so he is behind on that metric as well.

Oh, but this is impossible, this is not real. That is precisely the point: even an imaginary, impossible player that achieves an imaginary, impossible feat, is out of the GOAT conversation, if you only consider the numbers argument. So, if this imaginary player, that for three entire years could not lose a single game, this player that was imagined, tailored to be the GOAT, is so clearly not the GOAT (by the numbers based argument), then... the only possible conclusion is that the numbers based GOAT discussion is empty.

Is there a substitute for the numbers based GOAT argument? Of course not. This is our best shot at an objective argument. Problem is that it is not enough.

The (total) numbers based GOAT argument, in the end, privileges span of career and consistency over everything else. We could try to define "domination" statistics, but we would need to chose one (or a few) over the others, and this would be... subjective. So, no, the numbers based argument it is still our best shot, but still not sufficient.

When you look at the sky, you look at the brightest stars, not the ones which have stood there long enough. It is not the total, accumulated brightness that catches the eye. It is peak brightness that matters -- and only when you are looking, by the way.
I said something like this before, that it will be possible that there’s a player who wins 12 slams and can be considered as great as the Big 3, because he’s winning maybe the CYS against a rougher, ruder field. I’m not just saying it now, I’ve said it back since before the days of the Pistol, that goat discussions are entertaining and enlightening but it can’t be proven. You can’t shoehorn such incompatible eras into one big cosy era. Today, the Big 3 get titles too easily. I’ve been saying this since the days when Novak was considered a pushover. Their records are too promiscuously given. Even at this late age, they’re winning everything, more or less. If Rafa was fit since last years Wimbledon QF, it wouldn’t substantially change the looseness of the field, though Carlos may not have tightened up against Novak if he knew there was the real test waiting for him in the final…
 
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Moxie

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Nobody is really diminishing Rafa's achievements. They are in the bag. If anything, it's Novak's achievements that are being diminished. He sets the bar for the most majors and a bunch of people seem offended everyone isn't talking about Rafa.
Nobody's diminishing Novak's achievements. He set that bar for most majors two days ago. His first time passing his rivals. You could give it a second.
I did "pop up" when Rafa broke broke the major record.
I must have missed that nanosecond of gushing.
Not that I ever left in the first place - I just watch minimal sport these days... and it has nothing to do with tennis stats ;)
I'll take the "wink" as your "tell."
The rest is What If's... yes, it took all three to push each other to greater heights. That is undeniable. After the first bloke ran the mile in less than four minutes, a bunch of others did it shortly after... it changes the mindset on what is possible.

The "Most Majors" title does have significance because that's what a lot of casual sports fans will refer to, above anything else. You can garner that from the news headlines. That was the point I was making from the beginning.
I really don't need you to explain to me, again, that Most Majors is what casual sports fans and sports writers spilling virtual ink respond to. We all know that. I thought we liked to dig into the finer points around here, is all. I can see you're not interested. All good. ;)
 

Fiero425

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I said something like this before, that it will be possible that there’s a player who wins 12 slams and can be considered as great as the Big 3, because he’s winning maybe the CYS against a rougher, ruder field. I’m not just saying it now, I’ve said it back since before the days of the Pistol, that goat discussions are entertaining and enlightening but it can’t be proven. You can’t shoehorn such incompatible eras into one big cosy era. Today, the Big 3 get titles too easily. I’ve been saying this since the days when Novak was considered a pushover. Their records are too promiscuously given. Even at this late age, they’re winning everything, more or less. If Rafa was fit since last years Wimbledon QF, it wouldn’t substantially change the looseness of the field, though Carlos may not have tightened up against Novak if he knew there was the real test waiting for him in the final…

When you use the term "easiiy" when it comes to the Big 3's winning ways, it's all relative! The same players probaby would have won all those titles & championships, but the tour extended their reigh by making Masters' finals BO3! I think it kind of pathetic that even the YEC has been whittled down to BO3! The next to happen will be the majors, but it'll be a while longer I HOPE! As for Pete Sampras, the world wanted to be part of history by anointing him The BOAT, GOAT, & great guy! We all jumped on that bandwagon, but after seeing these guys now, it's an embarrassment as he never even played a French Open final! How did we allow that? :fearful-face: :face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy::smiling-face-with-horns:
 
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Kieran

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When you use the term "easiiy" when it comes to the Big 3's winning ways, it's all relative! The same players probaby would have won all those titles & championships, but the tour extended their reigh by making Masters' finals BO3! I see it kind of pathetic that even the YEC has been whittled down to BO3! The next to happen will be the majors, but it'll be a while longer I HOPE! As for Pete Sampras, the world wanted to be part of history by anointing him The BOAT, GOAT, & great guy! We all jumped on that bandwagon, but after seeing these guys now, it's an embarrassment as he never even played a French Open final! How did we allow that? :fearful-face: :face-with-hand-over-mouth::face-with-tears-of-joy::smiling-face-with-horns:
You know how, brother. You’re aware of tennis history and how the game changed..
 
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Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
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The only problem here is that tennis is a bit different than those sports in that it is essentially 3-4 "sub-sports": clay, hard, grass, and back a few years ago, carpet.

The point being, my answer would be different, depending upon surface. On clay, Rafa obviously. On hards, Novak (although peak Roger would be tempting). On grass, I'm still going with Roger.
But all things being equal, wouldnt the GOAT with his adrenaline going be close to peak performane on either of those 3 surfaces,

though i hearya ElDude,
so per your qualifications I would still take on fast slick grass peak Pistol Pete with that serve clicking, there was no answer.

Pete would hit two or three service winners & an ace, a royal flush in poker parlance.
 
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