Fedal XXX

[brokenshoelace]

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually. He played at a high enough level to beat anyone but Djokovic that day.

Nadal playing his worst clay tennis will pretty much beat anyone bar Djokovic on clay (exaggeration, but you know what i mean). So that remark doesn't say much.

Nadal wasn't allowed to play well, and even when he was, he didn't. So yeah, I don't think he played well, and saying "he didn't play bad at all" is a touch rich considering the standards we're used to seeing from him.

Can someone name anything GOOD that Nadal did in that match?

Well the "wasn't allowed to play well and even when he was he didn't" fits today's match by Fed perfectly too. As for anything Nadal did well in Monte Carlo, he was outplayed for much of set 1 but he definitely played better in set 2 and I'm not naive enough to just go by the scoreline. I'd have to watch it again to see what he did well but imo it was more a case of a top performance by Djokovic than a bad day for Nadal. Naturally it can be both (again as with Nadal and Fed today) but I thought Nadal played pretty well in the MC final and was just outplayed.

Of course it applies to Federer today. Did anyone in their right mind suggest Federer "didn't play bad at all" today? Of course though, it's apples to oranges, since Nadal dominates Federer on clay under most circumstances, and their matches are far less competitive than Nadal/Djokovic.

The Monte Carlo loss was a result of a top performance by Djokovic. However, Nadal most certainly did not play "pretty well." The game of tennis would be pretty sad if that was the greatest clay courter of all time playing "pretty well."

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Nadal played well in Madrid 2011. Well enough to beat anyone else at least. He played pretty damn well in Rome 2011. Well enough to crush anyone else.

However, that wasn't the case at Monte Carlo this year.

 

[huntingyou]

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually.

His worst clay final outside of his first tournament this year. In contrast, Novak said "this is the best I can ever play on clay; at least in the first set" something like that. It was the perfect storm.

---

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually.

I agree. He didn't play his best - he wasn't allowed to, but he did not play badly.

I don't know men......in 2011 for example, Nadal played pretty good both at Madrid and Rome and Novak was just too good in the pressure situations. Their baseline points were distributed even; very close to 50-50. By contrast, in Monte Carlos; Novak won over 60% of the baseline rallies which is unheard of for Rafa..especially in a final on any surface.

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There is the match up issue and one can wonder, how much did Rafa feel the need to press on shots he normally would just hit without thinking. Novak also came out pretty determined and camped on the baseline for most of the match.

That said, it's all rather moot. Rafa won Rome and is looking good for RG. And it's not a given that Nole will make it to the semis or the finals, is it?

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Match-up issues it's just a factor..........a great like Rafa it's not a slave of such factor thus his H2H lead over Novak. I'm the first one to say Novak just became the better player between the two.......a fact that remains so until proven otherwise.

My original point was, Nadal will be in full flight at the business end of RG and it's not even a given that Novak will match his previous form at Monte Carlos. Regardless, he will have his chances of course and it won't be a surprise if he wins.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

how much was Federer hurt by having to play in the warm daytime sun for the only time this week..after all his evening matches..his timing was a bit off compared to all the other matches..??..

apart from nadal destroying Federer, federers aggressive tactics were a good idea but undermined by his timing (shankerer), he needs to keep up with this especially on other surfaces..nadals backhand side isn't very good at the minute (maybe lack of mobility in knees??)..

after all the number crunching..rafa is seeded 4 at RG ..Or even 3 if murray pulls out.

 

[calitennis127]

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually.

His worst clay final outside of his first tournament this year. In contrast, Novak said "this is the best I can ever play on clay; at least in the first set" something like that. It was the perfect storm.

---

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually.

I agree. He didn't play his best - he wasn't allowed to, but he did not play badly.

I don't know men......in 2011 for example, Nadal played pretty good both at Madrid and Rome and Novak was just too good in the pressure situations. Their baseline points were distributed even; very close to 50-50. By contrast, in Monte Carlos; Novak won over 60% of the baseline rallies which is unheard of for Rafa..especially in a final on any surface.

---

There is the match up issue and one can wonder, how much did Rafa feel the need to press on shots he normally would just hit without thinking. Novak also came out pretty determined and camped on the baseline for most of the match.

That said, it's all rather moot. Rafa won Rome and is looking good for RG. And it's not a given that Nole will make it to the semis or the finals, is it?

---

Yes, it is. There is no shame in losing to Dimitrov the way Dimitrov was playing. The Berdych loss wasn't pretty but there is no way that happens in a Slam.

It will be Djokovic v. Nadal in the final. You can book it.

 

[brokenshoelace]

It will be Djokovic v. Nadal in the final. You can book it.

But I thought you told me to book Federer vs Djokovic for the Rome final...

Anyway, I agree. Unless they face before the final, it will be a Nadal-Djokovic final.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually. He played at a high enough level to beat anyone but Djokovic that day.

Nadal playing his worst clay tennis will pretty much beat anyone bar Djokovic on clay (exaggeration, but you know what i mean). So that remark doesn't say much.

Nadal wasn't allowed to play well, and even when he was, he didn't. So yeah, I don't think he played well, and saying "he didn't play bad at all" is a touch rich considering the standards we're used to seeing from him.

Can someone name anything GOOD that Nadal did in that match?

Just for perspective; get the stats for both Madrid and Rome 2011 and compare it to Monte Carlos this year.

My point stand, the worst final Rafa has ever played on clay outside from the Zeballos debacle.

Even in Madrid 2009 against Federer, Nadal's level was higher..........

nadal didn't have to do much today..just wait for federrors..erm errors,

almost the is match cant be rated as rafa could have won sitting in a deckchair.

 

[Front242]

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually. He played at a high enough level to beat anyone but Djokovic that day.

Nadal playing his worst clay tennis will pretty much beat anyone bar Djokovic on clay (exaggeration, but you know what i mean). So that remark doesn't say much.

Nadal wasn't allowed to play well, and even when he was, he didn't. So yeah, I don't think he played well, and saying "he didn't play bad at all" is a touch rich considering the standards we're used to seeing from him.

Can someone name anything GOOD that Nadal did in that match?

Well the "wasn't allowed to play well and even when he was he didn't" fits today's match by Fed perfectly too. As for anything Nadal did well in Monte Carlo, he was outplayed for much of set 1 but he definitely played better in set 2 and I'm not naive enough to just go by the scoreline. I'd have to watch it again to see what he did well but imo it was more a case of a top performance by Djokovic than a bad day for Nadal. Naturally it can be both (again as with Nadal and Fed today) but I thought Nadal played pretty well in the MC final and was just outplayed.

Of course it applies to Federer today. Did anyone in their right mind suggest Federer "didn't play bad at all" today? Of course though, it's apples to oranges, since Nadal dominates Federer on clay under most circumstances, and their matches are far less competitive than Nadal/Djokovic.

The Monte Carlo loss was a result of a top performance by Djokovic. However, Nadal most certainly did not play "pretty well." The game of tennis would be pretty sad if that was the greatest clay courter of all time playing "pretty well."

---

Nadal played well in Madrid 2011. Well enough to beat anyone else at least. He played pretty damn well in Rome 2011. Well enough to crush anyone else.

However, that wasn't the case at Monte Carlo this year.

---

Actually anytime Fed plays crap Kieran says Nadal thumped him and he wasn't allowed to play well, completely ignoring the fact the everyone including commentators said Fed played crap and missed a ton of shots he normally wouldn't. While I'm well aware Nadal played some outstanding points and always does, Federer clearly played worse than he normally does against Nadal today. Much like the '08 RG final. While he loses 98% of their clay encounters he clearly makes it more competitive than today. Again, not directed at you as I know you're well aware Fed played crap today but Kieran will never say Fed played crap.

Nadal looks in fine fettle as Robbie Koenig would say and looking forward to RG where we really have no clear indication of Fed or Djokovic's form right now. A complete surprise really.

 

[DarthFed]

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually.

His worst clay final outside of his first tournament this year. In contrast, Novak said "this is the best I can ever play on clay; at least in the first set" something like that. It was the perfect storm.

---

I don't think Nadal played badly in the Monte Carlo final at all actually.

I agree. He didn't play his best - he wasn't allowed to, but he did not play badly.

I don't know men......in 2011 for example, Nadal played pretty good both at Madrid and Rome and Novak was just too good in the pressure situations. Their baseline points were distributed even; very close to 50-50. By contrast, in Monte Carlos; Novak won over 60% of the baseline rallies which is unheard of for Rafa..especially in a final on any surface.

---

You are ignoring the matchup issues completely. Those high bouncing forehands are often coming back with interest against Nole's backhand. It is not the feeble reply he gets from Roger. And if Nadal can't attack well with the forehand well...he can't attack period. Rafa was made to look bad in similar fashion that Roger looks like a scrub when he plays Rafa. The bottom line is that Nole always will dictate against Rafa and if he plays cleanly as he did in matches like MC then Nadal is up against it. He can't beat Nole with just defense and stamina anymore which was the case through 2010.

Nole has to get to the matchup first and then we will see. Right now there are many who can beat him clearly while for Rafa there is but one.

 

[huntingyou]

You are ignoring the matchup issues completely. Those high bouncing forehands are often coming back with interest against Nole's backhand. It is not the feeble reply he gets from Roger. And if Nadal can't attack well with the forehand well...he can't attack period. Rafa was made to look bad in similar fashion that Roger looks like a scrub when he plays Rafa. The bottom line is that Nole always will dictate against Rafa and if he plays cleanly as he did in matches like MC then Nadal is up against it. He can't beat Nole with just defense and stamina anymore which was the case through 2010.

Nole has to get to the matchup first and then we will see. Right now there are many who can beat him clearly while for Rafa there is but one.

I'm not ignoring the match-up issue at all.....but at the end of the day it's just a factor and Rafa has made a living of proving wrong all his doubters.

You are simplifying Nadal's cc forehand dynamic with Novak; it's still very effective and can dictate play against Novak; it's a matter of court positioning and confidence in taking a cut of spinning it in. Also, Rafa has a backhand......and it can fire pretty well as well. Then there is the serve and net play.....areas in Nadal's game that are not constant but can move up and down in levels.

Also, you think MC was a clean match for Novak? The guy said afterwards it was his highest level of clay tennis period. I think you are kidding yourself if you are expecting Novak to play that "cleanly" against Rafa on clay; especially at RG.

So tell me, what happened lat year during their four encounters? Yes I'm including the AO final as well...a match Rafa could have won. It seems the simplistic notion of Novak having a great backhand and that's all she wrote it's missing the plot entirely.......you don't get to be the greatest clay courter in history by relying on the forehand alone.

 

[Didi]

Can't wait to see the draw.

Djokovic - Nadal
Federer - Berdych

That would be my favorite semi-finals lineup if Murray skips Paris. Please dear tennis god, make it happen!

 

[Front242]

Imagine the shock if Berdych beat Fed (no shock there, let me finish and read the rest) and then managed to beat Djokovic if he beat Nadal. Berdych winning RG?! I realize this ain't happening as Berdych doesn't beat Djokovic often but imagine the losses the bookies would make on Djokovic and Nadal!

 

[the AntiPusher]

OK a few quick things:

1) If you're underwhelmed by the Fedal "rivalry," base your arguments on their matches up until a couple of years ago. This is soon to be 32 year old Federer playing Nadal (who happened to be having a good day too) on clay. What did you expect? Sure, Roger's performance was especially bad, but to use these matches as some sort of tell-tale sign as to how overrated this rivalry is seems silly.

(Cali is excluded from this paragraph, since he thinks Roger is still as good as ever, 31 year old is still almost someone's prime, and Roger can just flip a switch the moment he chooses to. Apparently he chose not to in this match).

2) There's little to take from Fedal matches these days, especially on clay, but I actually think Nadal has re-adapted himself to Roger's old-age acquired weaknesses, such as stretching him on his forehand side. Back in say, 2006-2007 (or even 2008 for that matter), going after Roger's forehand was suicidal. He's not as fast moving to that side these days, and Rafa is consistently exposing it with his CC backhand (I first noticed it at RG in 2011). As if this match-up needed to become even more complicated for Fed.

3) The good news for Federer is that he can't possibly play this bad on grass. I think he'll be surprising people there, again.

The good news for Federer is that he can't possibly play this bad on grass. I think he'll be surprising people there, again.

It depends on a few things.. If the grass continue to play slow as it has in past years and if he faces Rafa again. The results may not be as today but not to much dissimilar, IMO

 

[Front242]

Rafa has to make it to the 2nd week first. He's always susceptible to early losses in the first week when the grass is faster. Once he makes the 2nd week and the grass is all mangled and slowed down he's much more at ease at Wimbledon and a much deadlier opponent. Of course we've yet to see how Janowicz, Gulbis, Haas fare at Wimbledon. They may take out a member of the big 4 there imo if they catch fire. Stranger things have happened. Gulbis played incredible against Berdych there last year. Don't think anyone fancies playing any of them early on in the tournament. I'm expecting good results for Falla again come grass season. He often produces big results there. Almost forgot Rosol. Maybe he'll play well again knowing how he can play there from last year. Not just saying against Nadal but anyone of the top players wouldn't fancy playing him first week.

 

[calitennis127]

(Cali is excluded from this paragraph, since he thinks Roger is still as good as ever, 31 year old is still almost someone's prime, and Roger can just flip a switch the moment he chooses to. Apparently he chose not to in this match).

No, what Cali thinks is that the talk of Federer being old since he was 26 has been illogical and petty, and it has given him a readymade excuse for every loss against the other members of the Big 4 when the most important factors were not age, but the match-up issues and Federer's failure to properly address them.

A week after El Dude made a post about Federer potentially no longer being a Top 10 player, he did indeed "flip the switch" and made a run to the Rome final.

As for "flipping the switch" in the final, you may want to take note of the fact that he was playing Rafael Nadal, a player who always beat him on clay when he was 24, 25, 26, and 27. The issues may have been more pronounced in this match, but the fundamental problems have always been the same for Federer against Nadal.

Grandfathers don't reach Slam semifinals or MS finals.

 

[crystalfire]

didnt see the match today but scoreline suggests it was a pretty routine match for rafa. i was hoping fed would at least fight for something but i am dissappointed.

 

[brokenshoelace]

OK a few quick things:

1) If you're underwhelmed by the Fedal "rivalry," base your arguments on their matches up until a couple of years ago. This is soon to be 32 year old Federer playing Nadal (who happened to be having a good day too) on clay. What did you expect? Sure, Roger's performance was especially bad, but to use these matches as some sort of tell-tale sign as to how overrated this rivalry is seems silly.

(Cali is excluded from this paragraph, since he thinks Roger is still as good as ever, 31 year old is still almost someone's prime, and Roger can just flip a switch the moment he chooses to. Apparently he chose not to in this match).

2) There's little to take from Fedal matches these days, especially on clay, but I actually think Nadal has re-adapted himself to Roger's old-age acquired weaknesses, such as stretching him on his forehand side. Back in say, 2006-2007 (or even 2008 for that matter), going after Roger's forehand was suicidal. He's not as fast moving to that side these days, and Rafa is consistently exposing it with his CC backhand (I first noticed it at RG in 2011). As if this match-up needed to become even more complicated for Fed.

3) The good news for Federer is that he can't possibly play this bad on grass. I think he'll be surprising people there, again.

The good news for Federer is that he can't possibly play this bad on grass. I think he'll be surprising people there, again.

It depends on a few things.. If the grass continue to play slow as it has in past years and if he faces Rafa again. The results may not be as today but not to much dissimilar, IMO

Grass will continue to play slow since there are no intentions of changing it. And that didn't stop Federer from winning Wimbledon last year. If he is to play Rafa on grass, I'd favor Nadal, but no way is Federer going to play as bad as he did today.

 

[Haelfix]

Just saw the replay. Yea pretty routine win for Nadal, not unlike IW. Roger just can't get a bead on the drop of the ball and he can't quite get under it, even when he tries. So he was chasing it all day, and never quite getting a rhythm, which led to overhitting (which almost always happens when these two play on clay). He was putting too much on his first serve (which dropped the percentage) and his second serve wasn't as spinny as it was earlier in the week.

Meanwhile Rafa served great, his backhand was effective today and he had Roger running on both wings. (thats really the key to the matchup problem incidentally. He really exposes Federer's running fh and running bh moreso than the rally fh/bh).

You can really tell the difference between Novak and Federer here. While Roger ends up ceding ground and court position, Novak is much stronger at the point of attack, and refuses to budge (and sends his replies nice and deep).

Anyway, I disagree with Federer's camp strategy when playing Rafa. For too many years, it feels like they simply tell him to be overly aggressive, to attack the net, to go for winners. Meanwhile Novak started off much more within himself. The latter strategy payed off (even though he lost just as many early on) whereas it seems like we're still seeing replays of the FO2008 over and over again.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Anyway, I disagree with Federer's camp strategy when playing Rafa. For too many years, it feels like they simply tell him to be overly aggressive, to attack the net, to go for winners. Meanwhile Novak started off much more within himself. The latter strategy payed off (even though he lost just as many early on) whereas it seems like we're still seeing replays of the FO2008 over and over again.

Yeah, I agree. The idea of shortening the points in general, and play first strike tennis could work against(Fed's done it indoors quite often), but I don't see it working on clay. I really don't think Fed's been that type of player on this particular surface anyway. These days though, I don't think he has the consistency to rally with Nadal on clay, and he feels forced to push the issue a bit too much. While it might seem lose-lose, I think the scoreline would look more respectable if Federer played a more patient game. Not sure it would change the outcome though.

 

[calitennis127]

Anyway, I disagree with Federer's camp strategy when playing Rafa. For too many years, it feels like they simply tell him to be overly aggressive, to attack the net, to go for winners. Meanwhile Novak started off much more within himself. The latter strategy payed off (even though he lost just as many early on) whereas it seems like we're still seeing replays of the FO2008 over and over again.

Yeah, I agree. The idea of shortening the points in general, and play first strike tennis could work against(Fed's done it indoors quite often), but I don't see it working on clay. I really don't think Fed's been that type of player on this particular surface anyway. These days though, I don't think he has the consistency to rally with Nadal on clay, and he feels forced to push the issue a bit too much. While it might seem lose-lose, I think the scoreline would look more respectable if Federer played a more patient game. Not sure it would change the outcome though.

You have to be kidding.

You call what Federer did in the Rome final "aggressive"? LOL, good grief.

Federer needs to do the exact opposite of what you and Haelfix suggest, primarily because his backhand simply is not good enough to withstand long rallies. In fact, the backhand issue is one of the key reasons that I give Nalbandian the edge in my "most talented" argument. Federer's BH tends to be completely feast or famine, and it is vulnerable to getting pounded by heavy shots such as Nadal's high-bouncing CC forehand.

But you and Haelfix are simply wrong. The problem with Federer and his camp is that their strategy is too patient. Federer can't go the Djokovic route because his backhand isn't good enough.

 

[DarthFed]

You are ignoring the matchup issues completely. Those high bouncing forehands are often coming back with interest against Nole's backhand. It is not the feeble reply he gets from Roger. And if Nadal can't attack well with the forehand well...he can't attack period. Rafa was made to look bad in similar fashion that Roger looks like a scrub when he plays Rafa. The bottom line is that Nole always will dictate against Rafa and if he plays cleanly as he did in matches like MC then Nadal is up against it. He can't beat Nole with just defense and stamina anymore which was the case through 2010.

Nole has to get to the matchup first and then we will see. Right now there are many who can beat him clearly while for Rafa there is but one.

I'm not ignoring the match-up issue at all.....but at the end of the day it's just a factor and Rafa has made a living of proving wrong all his doubters.

You are simplifying Nadal's cc forehand dynamic with Novak; it's still very effective and can dictate play against Novak; it's a matter of court positioning and confidence in taking a cut of spinning it in. Also, Rafa has a backhand......and it can fire pretty well as well. Then there is the serve and net play.....areas in Nadal's game that are not constant but can move up and down in levels.

Also, you think MC was a clean match for Novak? The guy said afterwards it was his highest level of clay tennis period. I think you are kidding yourself if you are expecting Novak to play that "cleanly" against Rafa on clay; especially at RG.

So tell me, what happened lat year during their four encounters? Yes I'm including the AO final as well...a match Rafa could have won. It seems the simplistic notion of Novak having a great backhand and that's all she wrote it's missing the plot entirely.......you don't get to be the greatest clay courter in history by relying on the forehand alone.

Rafa's normal rally forehand does not hurt Novak. Basically, for Nadal to truly attack Novak he has to step out of his comfort zone and go more for the lines and hitting flatter. Nadal's game is in large part based on giving himself a lot of margin for error while staying aggressive. And facing Djokovic causes those margins to narrow considerably. Rafa in the 4th set of AO 2012 and 3rd set of USO 2011 is not the norm and you'll never see him hit like that vs. anyone else because he just doesn't need to. Similar concept to Roger having to play a lot more aggressively vs. Rafa and therefore making more mistakes.

Nadal's backhand, serve and net play are not exactly weapons against most players, least of all Nole and I think you realize that. Nadal will be happy if the serve and backhand aren't negative factors in his matches against Djokovic.

I didn't see the 1st set of the MC final but saw the 2nd. I doubt Nole was calling the 2nd set his highest level, maybe the 1st set was an amazing display from him. Other than that it is accurate to call it his greatest clay court win to date given Rafa's run there and maybe that factored in his comments. The 2nd set of that match had its ups and downs for both players but one thing was consistent: Rafa was a yo-yo that entire set.

Last year Novak was missing a lot more shots than he did in 2011 when he was even matching Rafa in baseline consistency. Rafa's defense last year was absolutely amazing and that was also a factor compared to 2011. Overall Rafa played more confidently and at a higher level in 2012 than 2011 but it also can't be denied that Nole was giving a lot more free points everywhere including in crucial moments.