Djokovic now indisputedly a better grasscourtplayer than Nadal.....

[brokenshoelace]

Also, I take serious issue with this idea that nehmeth put forward earlier, stating that Federer by choice, didn't make the adjustments. This is literally based on nothing

Do you get ESPN in Lebanon?

Oh hey, an American who knows nothing of the world beyond the US. Shocking. Cable TV exists, even in 3rd world countries.

See, it's not difficult to take stupid shots. At least mine is closer to reality.

 

[nehmeth]

Also, I take serious issue with this idea that nehmeth put forward earlier, stating that Federer by choice, didn't make the adjustments. This is literally based on nothing

You certainly did take serious issue. Sadly it wasn't an "idea" I was putting forth. I was responding to something federberg posted, and you ripped him a new one too. You're more harsh and acerbic than usual these days, even slagging these boards along with the posters in it.

This isn't a courtroom. You have a fine brain and good logic, but you don't have to wield it like someone from Isis and decapitate everyone that you find lacking in their argument. You are a good writer with worthy insights. I just wish you'd use the same thoughtfulness in communicating as you do when you're on vacation.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Also, I take serious issue with this idea that nehmeth put forward earlier, stating that Federer by choice, didn't make the adjustments. This is literally based on nothing

You certainly did take serious issue. Sadly it wasn't an "idea" I was putting forth. I was responding to something federberg posted, and you ripped him a new one too. You're more harsh and acerbic than usual these days, even slagging these boards along with the posters in it.

This isn't a courtroom. You have a fine brain and good logic, but you don't have to wield it like someone from Isis and decapitate everyone that you find lacking in their argument. You are a good writer with worthy insights. I just wish you'd use the same thoughtfulness in communicating as you do when you're on vacation.

You're absolutely right it's no courtroom. As such I don't have to conduct myself in a specific manner. Each poster can choose how they act or post however they want within the rules. Some spend their whole day taking shots at a player, others turn into cheerleaders. I didn't rip Federberg a new one. You must have missed the threads where we actually went at it if you thought this was anything vitriolic. I disagreed. He took it fine. If you can't handle disagreement maybe a tennis message board is not the place for you.

 

[nehmeth]

If you can't handle disagreement maybe a tennis message board is not the place for you.

Disagreement is fine, and you are welcome to whatever tone you want to take within whatever rules there may be. Enjoy yourself. I will too.

 

[brokenshoelace]

If you can't handle disagreement maybe a tennis message board is not the place for you.

Disagreement is fine, and you are welcome to whatever tone you want to take within whatever rules there may be. Enjoy yourself. I will too.

Exactly. Hence, no need for the father-son talk.

 

[BalaryKar]

Nole being better than Nadal is a trivial assessment. The important question is whether this would be good enough to beat Nalbandian of the 2002 finals or the Queen's final when he kicked the umpire? This is way more interesting than the one made in the thread title.

 

[the AntiPusher]

This is true, had him as one even before winning yesterday seeing as how he destroyed Nadal in the final in 2011.

I beg to differ. If I recall correctly , Novak was on the ATP in 2006-2010; what was his results on grass during this period( I am on my smartphone so I will leave it to someone else to research) but Rafa was clearly the world's 2nd best grasscourt player and was the only player who could go toe to toe with Roger, the player with the best grasscourt results during that period. Rafa made the proper adjustments to defeat and ultimately dethroned Roger however someone has planted the moronic notion that Roger defeats was because he was stubborn, it complete insanity, Roger lost because he was outplayed not only on grass but every surface they met.Back to Novak, he got taken to the woodshed and to a pulp by Marat who was making his close to or last stance at SW19. Was Satin a "great " grasscourt player with numerous Wimbledon or even Queen titles, no.But what he did was take the fight to the Serbian. What happened to Novak , was it his breathing problems that was enhanced by his love for gluten centric food, no It was the fact that he was overwhelmed by another player who was the aggressor.e.g. Stan win at RG

Now let's address assertion that 2010 if Novak had beaten Berdych that he would have without a doubt would have beaten Rafa who was clearly at the top of his game, what a farce. Berdych beat Novak very similar to Safin and later Stan, he.was the aggressor. What happened when Novak played Rafa in the 2010 USO final , Rafa was the aggressor and used a beefed up serve to neutralize Novak 's aggressive service returns. Now, let's go revisit SW19 final, Novak changed his "diet" , breathe better and took advantage of Nadal who refused to make adjustments that he correct in 2013 USO. Every great champion have lost a grand slam final badly,( Sampras vs Safin & Hewitt ).Roger vs Rafa at RG 2008 so you see it happens. However,Sampras was able to turn it around vs his two previous USO finalists and Rafa has vs Novak.Also, there hasn't been a player on the ATP tour that lost so many matches to his primary rivals as Rafa did to Novak but turn it around as Rafa did in 2013 and at RG 2014.

So now the so called Rafa expert says Novak is a better grasscourt today than Rafa, no s#@t Sherlock. Today yes, historically , Hell no.

 

[Federberg]

^ I don't disagree with you AP. There's now, and then there's the body of work. I think that while it's reasonable to say that Rafa will go down as a Wimbledon great, it's tough to argue, now that Novak has surpassed Rafa's number of titles at Wimbledon that Novak isn't the greater grass court player than Rafa now. These sorts of discussions are always tough. For example if someone were to say that Novak is a greater clay courter than Roger I would argue not. Roger has the RG win, and countless finals. But Novak is unquestionably a better clay court player than Roger right now and I would imagine he's won more clay court titles than Roger by now. I haven't checked though

 

[the AntiPusher]

^ I don't disagree with you AP. There's now, and then there's the body of work. I think that while it's reasonable to say that Rafa will go down as a Wimbledon great, it's tough to argue, now that Novak has surpassed Rafa's number of titles at Wimbledon that Novak isn't the greater grass court player than Rafa now. These sorts of discussions are always tough. For example if someone were to say that Novak is a greater clay courter than Roger I would argue not. Roger has the RG win, and countless finals. But Novak is unquestionably a better clay court player than Roger right now and I would imagine he's won more clay court titles than Roger by now. I haven't checked though

Trust me FB , I get your point. However, on this board, they will not dare say that Novak historical clay record is better than Fed. They don't want to anger the Fed fans who would clearly mentioned "Whereas Djoker during the Roger Rafa years although Novak is only 13 months younger than Rafa and more than 6 years than Fed. Where was he?uzzled

 

[Federberg]

^Haha! That's true. But not everyone can be an early starter like Rafa. He's a rarity when you think about it. Along with the likes of Becker and Sampras. Not bad company

 

[DarthFed]

This is true, had him as one even before winning yesterday seeing as how he destroyed Nadal in the final in 2011.

I beg to differ. If I recall correctly , Novak was on the ATP in 2006-2010; what was his results on grass during this period( I am on my smartphone so I will leave it to someone else to research) but Rafa was clearly the world's 2nd best grasscourt player and was the only player who could go toe to toe with Roger, the player with the best grasscourt results during that period. Rafa made the proper adjustments to defeat and ultimately dethroned Roger however someone has planted the moronic notion that Roger defeats was because he was stubborn, it complete insanity, Roger lost because he was outplayed not only on grass but every surface they met.Back to Novak, he got taken to the woodshed and to a pulp by Marat who was making his close to or last stance at SW19. Was Satin a "great " grasscourt player with numerous Wimbledon or even Queen titles, no.But what he did was take the fight to the Serbian. What happened to Novak , was it his breathing problems that was enhanced by his love for gluten centric food, no It was the fact that he was overwhelmed by another player who was the aggressor.e.g. Stan win at RG

Now let's address assertion that 2010 if Novak had beaten Berdych that he would have without a doubt would have beaten Rafa who was clearly at the top of his game, what a farce. Berdych beat Novak very similar to Safin and later Stan, he.was the aggressor. What happened when Novak played Rafa in the 2010 USO final , Rafa was the aggressor and used a beefed up serve to neutralize Novak 's aggressive service returns. Now, let's go revisit SW19 final, Novak changed his "diet" , breathe better and took advantage of Nadal who refused to make adjustments that he correct in 2013 USO. Every great champion have lost a grand slam final badly,( Sampras vs Safin & Hewitt ).Roger vs Rafa at RG 2008 so you see it happens. However,Sampras was able to turn it around vs his two previous USO finalists and Rafa has vs Novak.Also, there hasn't been a player on the ATP tour that lost so many matches to his primary rivals as Rafa did to Novak but turn it around as Rafa did in 2013 and at RG 2014.

So now the so called Rafa expert says Novak is a better grasscourt today than Rafa, no s#@t Sherlock. Today yes, historically , Hell no.

How is he not better historically too? It's 3>2 and Nole destroyed Rafa in the one final they've played. It's hard to argue that Rafa's been greater. Also by now Rafa's achievements on grass have been cheapened a bit by the fact he is losing to the blind, deaf and dumb the past 4 years at ages 26-29. Just be grateful the grass is what it is this era, if it hadn't changed Rafa would be sitting on 0 and there's no way Fed would "only" have 7.

 

[brokenshoelace]

if it hadn't changed Rafa would be sitting on 0 and there's no way Fed would "only" have 7.

There's no way to tell if Fed would have won more. I mean, part of the reason he was so untouchable at Wimbledon for so long is exactly because he was the best baseliner, and had the best mix of baseline consistency and offensive onslaught. If it were 90's grass, he would potentially be more prone to upsets since it would be more possible to serve him off the court and losses like the one against Stakhovsky would have been, in theory, more plausible.

He'd still be sitting on at least 5 Wimbledon titles, but there's no way to tell if Roger with a serve and volley game would have been as successful at Wimbledon as he is now, even though he obviously would have been very successful.

 

[DarthFed]

Faster court, lower bounce = better Federer. That said I do get your point but basically it comes down to him being slightly more vulnerable against guys like Roddick, Karlovic, Ancic, etc. and much less vulnerable vs. the greater players like Rafa, Nole, Murray, etc. I think he'd have won more than 7 of 13.

 

[the AntiPusher]

This is true, had him as one even before winning yesterday seeing as how he destroyed Nadal in the final in 2011.

I beg to differ. If I recall correctly , Novak was on the ATP in 2006-2010; what was his results on grass during this period( I am on my smartphone so I will leave it to someone else to research) but Rafa was clearly the world's 2nd best grasscourt player and was the only player who could go toe to toe with Roger, the player with the best grasscourt results during that period. Rafa made the proper adjustments to defeat and ultimately dethroned Roger however someone has planted the moronic notion that Roger defeats was because he was stubborn, it complete insanity, Roger lost because he was outplayed not only on grass but every surface they met.Back to Novak, he got taken to the woodshed and to a pulp by Marat who was making his close to or last stance at SW19. Was Satin a "great " grasscourt player with numerous Wimbledon or even Queen titles, no.But what he did was take the fight to the Serbian. What happened to Novak , was it his breathing problems that was enhanced by his love for gluten centric food, no It was the fact that he was overwhelmed by another player who was the aggressor.e.g. Stan win at RG

Now let's address assertion that 2010 if Novak had beaten Berdych that he would have without a doubt would have beaten Rafa who was clearly at the top of his game, what a farce. Berdych beat Novak very similar to Safin and later Stan, he.was the aggressor. What happened when Novak played Rafa in the 2010 USO final , Rafa was the aggressor and used a beefed up serve to neutralize Novak 's aggressive service returns. Now, let's go revisit SW19 final, Novak changed his "diet" , breathe better and took advantage of Nadal who refused to make adjustments that he correct in 2013 USO. Every great champion have lost a grand slam final badly,( Sampras vs Safin & Hewitt ).Roger vs Rafa at RG 2008 so you see it happens. However,Sampras was able to turn it around vs his two previous USO finalists and Rafa has vs Novak.Also, there hasn't been a player on the ATP tour that lost so many matches to his primary rivals as Rafa did to Novak but turn it around as Rafa did in 2013 and at RG 2014.

So now the so called Rafa expert says Novak is a better grasscourt today than Rafa, no s#@t Sherlock. Today yes, historically , Hell no.

How is he not better historically too? It's 3>2 and Nole destroyed Rafa in the one final they've played. It's hard to argue that Rafa's been greater. Also by now Rafa's achievements on grass have been cheapened a bit by the fact he is losing to the blind, deaf and dumb the past 4 years at ages 26-29. Just be grateful the grass is what it is this era, if it hadn't changed Rafa would be sitting on 0 and there's no way Fed would "only" have 7.

Darthfed, Would present date Djokovic defeat Roger at Wimbledon 2003-2008 during Roger prime years of grass court dominance?(be careful how you respond)..please enlighten us all

 

[DarthFed]

The Djokovic the past two years probably beats 2008 Federer IMO. Roger in the 2014 Wimbledon final served considerably better than the 2008 version and was still broken 4 times. The present Nole would also be winning the baseline battle more likely than not.

 

[the AntiPusher]

The Djokovic the past two years probably beats 2008 Federer IMO. Roger in the 2014 Wimbledon final served considerably better than the 2008 version and was still broken 4 times. The present Nole would also be winning the baseline battle more likely than not.

Continue
And 2003-2007. Fed

 

[Federberg]

The Djokovic the past two years probably beats 2008 Federer IMO. Roger in the 2014 Wimbledon final served considerably better than the 2008 version and was still broken 4 times. The present Nole would also be winning the baseline battle more likely than not.

Continue
And 2003-2007. Fed

I'm not so sure about that! But we're straying in to fantasy land.

 

[the AntiPusher]

The Djokovic the past two years probably beats 2008 Federer IMO. Roger in the 2014 Wimbledon final served considerably better than the 2008 version and was still broken 4 times. The present Nole would also be winning the baseline battle more likely than not.

Continue
And 2003-2007. Fed

I'm not so sure about that! But we're straying in to fantasy land.

I am not .. Its a question for DarthFed to finished. I want him to tell us how good this 28 year old Djoker is because he was able to defeat 33-34 year old Roger. I want him to explain how and why what Rafa had to face in 2006, 2007 and 2008 in the Wimbledon final wasn't Federer at his best.

 

[calitennis127]

Also, I take serious issue with this idea that nehmeth put forward earlier, stating that Federer by choice, didn't make the adjustments. This is literally based on nothing

Do you get ESPN in Lebanon?

Oh hey, an American who knows nothing of the world beyond the US. Shocking. Cable TV exists, even in 3rd world countries.

See, it's not difficult to take stupid shots. At least mine is closer to reality.

No, it's not. I was reinforcing the point that to say "This is literally based on nothing" when talking about Federer's refusal to make significant adjustments against Nadal, you need to a) have no memory or b) have been living in a hole. Hence the smart aleck question. Everyone at that time - especially the ESPN commentators - was talking about the adjustments Federer was refusing to make. For you to say "this is literally based on nothing" is just dumb.

I would also like to inform you that I am trying to become more informed on the menacing toughness of French male athletes. Players like Monfils are aggressive, hardcore, tough as nails, and of course Monfils himself also has outstanding stamina, with how he constantly puts his elbows on his knees to catch his breath in between points.

Gasquet too - that's another tough guy. As well as Christian Fournier of the Nuggets.

What's next? A French Kenyon Martin or Marshawn Lynch?

 

[calitennis127]

The Djokovic the past two years probably beats 2008 Federer IMO. Roger in the 2014 Wimbledon final served considerably better than the 2008 version and was still broken 4 times. The present Nole would also be winning the baseline battle more likely than not.

A candid admission.