Dispelling the usual nonsense about the Galileo affair.....

Murat Baslamisli

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Kieran said:
1972Murat said:
Kieran said:
tented said:
Kieran said:
Marriage, in the church, is only valid if both parties are open to the possibility of procreation. It may not be possible for everyone, but to enter a marriage and be closed to the possibility of children arising from the marriage makes the wedding invalid...

Did you copy this from a 16th century Roman document? Or are you only defining it in terms of Catholicism? And does this mean you don't think a man and a woman in their sixties should/could get married?

I'm telling you what's considered a valid marriage. Not every couple can have a child, but they mustn't be closed to the possibility. It's one of the conditions of a valid marriage in the Church...

That's why my marriage was at the City Hall, as hetero as it was ;)

Good for you, brother! I hope you're happy, too, and I won't tell your wife you'd prefer to be married to your tennis racket :snigger :)

It is not "prefer" brother...it is "in addition to" . You will get me in trouble:snigger
 

calitennis127

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tented said:
It's actually quite funny reading Cali's posts (here and elsewhere). He's a useful tool for measuring progress, as well as defining words. There would be no tolerance if not for intolerance.

The Catholic Church is responsible for promoting more freedom of thought than any institution in human history. The Church has never launched massive, systematic human killing sprees like the heroes of the French Revolution or the Soviet Union - people who defined true intolerance to the highest degree, in a manner never before seen in human history.

With every one of your posts, you simply demonstrate your massive ignorance of significant topics, and your preference for pettiness and frivolity.

tented said:
The level of progress in civil rights

Yeah, it is just huge progress for every urban center in America to be plagued by mass incarceration, welfare dependence, family breakdown, and educational disaster. Huge progress. Watch the Strawberry Mansion video and face reality - if you can stomach it.

People lying out in the streets of Camden, New Jersey with heroin needles sticking out of their arms, or stray pit bulls in a deserted Detroit, or hundreds of teenagers shot in Chicago - these are all just signs of human progress.

tented said:
acceptance of gays is shown in high relief when juxtaposed with Cali's antediluvian opinions.

"Acceptance of gays" in the modern sense is a new phenomenon, invented by a recent brand of fools who will pass as many other such hordes have throughout history. Don't worry, tented, one day your kind will just be seen as clueless buffoons who tried pounding a square peg in a round hole, but since the list of fools in history is so long, you probably won't stand out from the rest.

100 years ago, the fashionable thing was to be a socialist and to favor all international workers' causes. It was just the right way to go. After a massive scale of human suffering and death in the 20th century, we saw that those ideas were pernicious and stupid. The new metaphysical revolts will be exposed as falsehood, in much the same way. But people will find new ways to be silly down the road; it's just the human condition.

The Catholic Church has been consistent in its definition of marriage for two millennia. It's definition is outside time. It is eternal and universally valid. You can call Truth progressive or retrograde at any particular time, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that it is eternally and universally true. Such is the Church's definition of marriage.
 

calitennis127

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It's also funny to see tented say that I am playing with language. Again, the height of hypocrisy.

First of all, I am simply going by definitions and rigorous translations of root words.

Secondly, it was leftist paragons such as Vladimir Lenin and the Frankfurt School who completely set out to re-define language, and said as much. I have a book from a Russian scholar on how Lenin invented the concept of "political correctness" (straight from the Russian) as a means of intimidating, browbeating, scaring, de-legitimizing, demeaning, and ultimately eliminating his political opposition.

The way that the Frankfurt School toyed around with the term "fascism" and completely distorted its meaning to influence public discussion is similar.

Furthermore, it was the leftist-socialist educators in America who did everything they could in the mid-20th century to eliminate genuine learning in the humanities and destroy standards, with their attacks on Classics and the curriculum that produced the West's greatest minds, including Jefferson. Things have gotten so bad that we now have the likes of Bush and Obama as presidents.
 

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^Urban decay is a lot more complicated than simply blaming it on civil rights and socialism. Rampant unchecked capitalism is probably a bigger contributor IMO.

You lost me on your last couple of paragraphs about "Acceptance of Gays"... Don't know where you're going with that but you ain't framing your argument very well. It sounds like either you think gay people don't exist or shouldn't be accepted as being part of society in any form.
 

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britbox said:
^Urban decay is a lot more complicated than simply blaming it on civil rights and socialism.

Of course it is, but we need to assign blame to all causes. The welfare state feeds self-destruction and self-depredation in America's inner cities. And the professional civil rights movement of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson assigns blame to all the wrong places.

britbox said:
You lost me on your last couple of paragraphs about "Acceptance of Gays"... Don't know where you're going with that but you ain't framing your argument very well. It sounds like either you think gay people don't exist or shouldn't be accepted as being part of society in any form.

"Acceptance of gays" in the modern sense means advocacy for gay marriage, publicly and legally legitimating homosexual relationships, and treating the act of homosexuality itself with pious reverence.

Gay people have always existed. In civilized societies - which does not include any modern Western society - they are publicly disapproved of but neglected privately. In other words, no one advocates gay marriage or marches in gay rights parades or cries with joy when a bisexual basketball player announces that at age 34 he is "gay". If someone is gay, the person is treated with respect on a personal level and allowed to have his or her private life, but public celebration of the behavior or official acceptance of the behavior is not even contemplated. This is the meaning of cultural standards.
 

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Kieran said:
tented said:
Kieran said:
Marriage, in the church, is only valid if both parties are open to the possibility of procreation. It may not be possible for everyone, but to enter a marriage and be closed to the possibility of children arising from the marriage makes the wedding invalid...

Did you copy this from a 16th century Roman document? Or are you only defining it in terms of Catholicism? And does this mean you don't think a man and a woman in their sixties should/could get married?

I'm telling you what's considered a valid marriage. Not every couple can have a child, but they mustn't be closed to the possibility. It's one of the conditions of a valid marriage in the Church...

Does this mean that no late-in-life marriage amongst heterosexuals is valid, either? No matter how much inclination, they're not going to have children. And what about the fact that "marriage," in much of history, was a negotiation between land-holdings and/or titles? Or that a woman's choice was either the only thing on offer, or poverty, or the convent? And that for many centuries, in most/all Western countries, a man was legally allowed to beat his wife, and all of her holdings reverted to him, upon marriage? Where is the "sanctity" in that? Marriage has long been a construct to bind men to take care of their children, and to keep women from having power based on their own wealth.

Love has always existed in this world, and always will. However, love in conjunction with marriage was basically invented in the 19th C., and was still mostly theoretical until the mid-20th C. for plenty of people. (I give you Prince Charles and Diana. Yes, they procreated effectively, but that was a contract, I think you would agree.)

All "marriages" are contracts. No one will force religious institutions to recognize ones they don't want to, contrary to what Cali says. The Catholic Church doesn't recognize a second marriage where there wasn't an annulment sanctioned by the Church, and this has long stood, even though divorce has existed in the Western world for variously long times. I find it surprising that people hold up the word and concept of "marriage" to be so special that it can't be sullied by the same contract that gay people would make with each other. It doesn't really have such a fine history. After the Wedding at Cana, it kinda went downhill from there.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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calitennis127 said:
britbox said:
^Urban decay is a lot more complicated than simply blaming it on civil rights and socialism.

Of course it is, but we need to assign blame to all causes. The welfare state feeds self-destruction and self-depredation in America's inner cities. And the professional civil rights movement of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson assigns blame to all the wrong places.

britbox said:
You lost me on your last couple of paragraphs about "Acceptance of Gays"... Don't know where you're going with that but you ain't framing your argument very well. It sounds like either you think gay people don't exist or shouldn't be accepted as being part of society in any form.

"Acceptance of gays" in the modern sense means advocacy for gay marriage, publicly and legally legitimating homosexual relationships, and treating the act of homosexuality itself with pious reverence.

Gay people have always existed. In civilized societies - which does not include any modern Western society - they are publicly disapproved of but neglected privately. In other words, no one advocates gay marriage or marches in gay rights parades or cries with joy when a bisexual basketball player announces that at age 34 he is "gay". If someone is gay, the person is treated with respect on a personal level and allowed to have his or her private life, but public celebration of the behavior or official acceptance of the behavior is not even contemplated. This is the meaning of cultural standards.


Who are those?
 

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calitennis127 said:
It's also funny to see tented say that I am playing with language. Again, the height of hypocrisy.

First of all, I am simply going by definitions and rigorous translations of root words.

Secondly, it was leftist paragons such as Vladimir Lenin and the Frankfurt School who completely set out to re-define language, and said as much. I have a book from a Russian scholar on how Lenin invented the concept of "political correctness" (straight from the Russian) as a means of intimidating, browbeating, scaring, de-legitimizing, demeaning, and ultimately eliminating his political opposition.

The way that the Frankfurt School toyed around with the term "fascism" and completely distorted its meaning to influence public discussion is similar.

Furthermore, it was the leftist-socialist educators in America who did everything they could in the mid-20th century to eliminate genuine learning in the humanities and destroy standards, with their attacks on Classics and the curriculum that produced the West's greatest minds, including Jefferson. Things have gotten so bad that we now have the likes of Bush and Obama as presidents.

It's you who rejects the accepted term of "homophobia." However, I suspect you have a rigorous definition of "marriage." There is nothing hypocritical about tented saying you are playing with language. When has he ever? And you may describe words as fungible, but not all of them, right?

As to what I bolded above, to quote you, I'm not sure where or how you were educated, but my late-20th C. education in the Liberal Arts and Classics was quite fine. I would say it's the extreme right, these days that's trying to limit the perimeters of solid foundational education. Creationism? And Texas being the last word on what text books put forward, because they have the power of the purse?
 

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Moxie629 said:
Kieran said:
tented said:
Kieran said:
Marriage, in the church, is only valid if both parties are open to the possibility of procreation. It may not be possible for everyone, but to enter a marriage and be closed to the possibility of children arising from the marriage makes the wedding invalid...

Did you copy this from a 16th century Roman document? Or are you only defining it in terms of Catholicism? And does this mean you don't think a man and a woman in their sixties should/could get married?

I'm telling you what's considered a valid marriage. Not every couple can have a child, but they mustn't be closed to the possibility. It's one of the conditions of a valid marriage in the Church...

Does this mean that no late-in-life marriage amongst heterosexuals is valid, either? No matter how much inclination, they're not going to have children. And what about the fact that "marriage," in much of history, was a negotiation between land-holdings and/or titles? Or that a woman's choice was either the only thing on offer, or poverty, or the convent? And that for many centuries, in most/all Western countries, a man was legally allowed to beat his wife, and all of her holdings reverted to him, upon marriage? Where is the "sanctity" in that? Marriage has long been a construct to bind men to take care of their children, and to keep women from having power based on their own wealth.

Love has always existed in this world, and always will. However, love in conjunction with marriage was basically invented in the 19th C., and was still mostly theoretical until the mid-20th C. for plenty of people. (I give you Prince Charles and Diana. Yes, they procreated effectively, but that was a contract, I think you would agree.)

All "marriages" are contracts. No one will force religious institutions to recognize ones they don't want to, contrary to what Cali says. The Catholic Church doesn't recognize a second marriage where there wasn't an annulment sanctioned by the Church, and this has long stood, even though divorce has existed in the Western world for variously long times. I find it surprising that people hold up the word and concept of "marriage" to be so special that it can't be sullied by the same contract that gay people would make with each other. It doesn't really have such a fine history. After the Wedding at Cana, it kinda went downhill from there.

That's a negative view of marriage, especially to say it all went downhill from there. In fact, it didn't, and it survived very well until the modern cynical liberal age of humankind. But it makes me wonder why you'd want to inflict such a nasty thing like marriage upon gays. Sheesh! You really must have it in for them. ;)

A marriage between two ninety year olds is a valid marriage - so long as they can both consummate it. If they can't, it's not a marriage. The church view of marriage is based on both Natural and Biblical law. In nature, heterosexuals can procreate. If this isn't possible, for reasons beyond their control, such as infertility or sterility, but they still can be conjugally joined, then this doesn't stop their marriage from being valid, once it fulfils all the conditions.

Now, the rest of it, divorce etc, is really broadening the scope of the conversation, but appealing to the fact that the western world supports divorce isn't really going to have many people nodding their heads, thinking that's a good thing. In fact, the day the church reflects what the fickle western world thinks is right, is the day we shut the doors and call it quits. Hell in a handcart would be the popular phrase. I know, atheists don't accept the Church and it offends them. That's not a problem for me.

I stuck a like on Britbox formulation above because that's what I agree with. I bet it's what you agree with too. Tented agreed with it too. The secularist nightmare named Obama has even said the Church won't be forced to conduct services it doesn't hold to be valid - although it doesn't actually need or want his approval for anything.

So what's your problem, again?
 

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1972Murat said:
calitennis127 said:
britbox said:
^Urban decay is a lot more complicated than simply blaming it on civil rights and socialism.

Of course it is, but we need to assign blame to all causes. The welfare state feeds self-destruction and self-depredation in America's inner cities. And the professional civil rights movement of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson assigns blame to all the wrong places.

britbox said:
You lost me on your last couple of paragraphs about "Acceptance of Gays"... Don't know where you're going with that but you ain't framing your argument very well. It sounds like either you think gay people don't exist or shouldn't be accepted as being part of society in any form.

"Acceptance of gays" in the modern sense means advocacy for gay marriage, publicly and legally legitimating homosexual relationships, and treating the act of homosexuality itself with pious reverence.

Gay people have always existed. In civilized societies - which does not include any modern Western society - they are publicly disapproved of but neglected privately. In other words, no one advocates gay marriage or marches in gay rights parades or cries with joy when a bisexual basketball player announces that at age 34 he is "gay". If someone is gay, the person is treated with respect on a personal level and allowed to have his or her private life, but public celebration of the behavior or official acceptance of the behavior is not even contemplated. This is the meaning of cultural standards.

Who are those?


Our ancestors built great cities, cathedrals, and palaces. We take pictures in them.

Our ancestors wrote great works of literature. We may study them in optional courses.

We live in the ruins, my friend.
 

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Kieran said:
Moxie629 said:
Kieran said:
tented said:
Kieran said:
Marriage, in the church, is only valid if both parties are open to the possibility of procreation. It may not be possible for everyone, but to enter a marriage and be closed to the possibility of children arising from the marriage makes the wedding invalid...

Did you copy this from a 16th century Roman document? Or are you only defining it in terms of Catholicism? And does this mean you don't think a man and a woman in their sixties should/could get married?

I'm telling you what's considered a valid marriage. Not every couple can have a child, but they mustn't be closed to the possibility. It's one of the conditions of a valid marriage in the Church...

Does this mean that no late-in-life marriage amongst heterosexuals is valid, either? No matter how much inclination, they're not going to have children. And what about the fact that "marriage," in much of history, was a negotiation between land-holdings and/or titles? Or that a woman's choice was either the only thing on offer, or poverty, or the convent? And that for many centuries, in most/all Western countries, a man was legally allowed to beat his wife, and all of her holdings reverted to him, upon marriage? Where is the "sanctity" in that? Marriage has long been a construct to bind men to take care of their children, and to keep women from having power based on their own wealth.

Love has always existed in this world, and always will. However, love in conjunction with marriage was basically invented in the 19th C., and was still mostly theoretical until the mid-20th C. for plenty of people. (I give you Prince Charles and Diana. Yes, they procreated effectively, but that was a contract, I think you would agree.)

All "marriages" are contracts. No one will force religious institutions to recognize ones they don't want to, contrary to what Cali says. The Catholic Church doesn't recognize a second marriage where there wasn't an annulment sanctioned by the Church, and this has long stood, even though divorce has existed in the Western world for variously long times. I find it surprising that people hold up the word and concept of "marriage" to be so special that it can't be sullied by the same contract that gay people would make with each other. It doesn't really have such a fine history. After the Wedding at Cana, it kinda went downhill from there.

That's a negative view of marriage, especially to say it all went downhill from there. In fact, it didn't, and it survived very well until the modern cynical liberal age of humankind. But it makes me wonder why you'd want to inflict such a nasty thing like marriage upon gays. Sheesh! You really must have it in for them. ;)

A marriage between two ninety year olds is a valid marriage - so long as they can both consummate it. If they can't, it's not a marriage. The church view of marriage is based on both Natural and Biblical law. In nature, heterosexuals can procreate. If this isn't possible, for reasons beyond their control, such as infertility or sterility, but they still can be conjugally joined, then this doesn't stop their marriage from being valid, once it fulfils all the conditions.

Now, the rest of it, divorce etc, is really broadening the scope of the conversation, but appealing to the fact that the western world supports divorce isn't really going to have many people nodding their heads, thinking that's a good thing. In fact, the day the church reflects what the fickle western world thinks is right, is the day we shut the doors and call it quits. Hell in a handcart would be the popular phrase. I know, atheists don't accept the Church and it offends them. That's not a problem for me.

I stuck a like on Britbox formulation above because that's what I agree with. I bet it's what you agree with too. Tented agreed with it too. The secularist nightmare named Obama has even said the Church won't be forced to conduct services it doesn't hold to be valid - although it doesn't actually need or want his approval for anything.

So what's your problem, again?

I don't have a negative view on marriage. My personal one is neutral. Let those who want it, embrace it, and those who commit without it, also fair. What I'm in fair of is commitment, which plenty of "marriages" don't have. I do have a problem where you say that if two 90-year olds marry, though can't consummate it, it's not a marriage. Perhaps this is the crux of where we disagree. If two people want to be married people, to each other, I say fine, and who is to describe what there relationship is, or what happens, or doesn't, in their bedroom. I think this is where your argument falls apart, a bit. You are wrong to say that the test is inclination to procreate. No one would deny two 90-year-olds a marriage in the Church, provided they were properly widowed/single/annulled. No one is going to ask them if they actually consummate the marriage, if they're straight, and happy to be together.
 

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Moxie629 said:
It's you who rejects the accepted term of "homophobia."

I rejected it because it is a misuse. There are many "accepted" things in the world which are simply wrong. The fact that it is "accepted" does not merely make me a difficult malcontent on this issue. Often times, the contrarians are right!

I am going by the proper use of the term. I took ancient Greek and one of the first suffixes we learned was -phobia, which meant "fear" or usually "irrational fear". So, properly speaking, the term "homophobia" means "fear, probably irrational fear, of homosexuals". The next question is, in what sense?

In a colloquial personal sense, I don't have any fear of homosexuals. In a political sense, I despise the gay advocacy movement. It is me who is going by the strict meanings here.

The term "homophobia" in common parlance is used to demean and de-legitimize any sort of opposition to gay rights or gay marriage. It is a psychologically totalitarian weapon, meant to intimidate and de-humanize. It ascribes irrationality and unpleasant attitudes to people who disagree with a certain moral or political position. Because of this, it is a misused word.

Moxie629 said:
I suspect you have a rigorous definition of "marriage."

Just as I have a rigorous definition of "homophobia".

Moxie629 said:
As to what I bolded above, to quote you, I'm not sure where or how you were educated, but my late-20th C. education in the Liberal Arts and Classics was quite fine.

There are still some good courses in Classics scattered throughout major universities, but they are optional and they are marginalized. In the past, Classics was an active tradition handed down from authority to carry on a civilization. Students were forced to learn Latin and Greek, whether they wanted to or not. To be considered well-educated, you could not merely have a degree in one of 500 majors. You had to be acquainted with the ancient world's languages, literature, history, and philosophy.

This Classical tradition has been one of the key lifebloods of Western achievement. It is no coincidence at all that Newton, Shakespeare, Einstein, Galileo, Jefferson, Darwin, and many others learned Latin and were classically educated.

Starting after World War II, leftist educators in the West targeted Classics, branding it as fuel for Western ethnocentrism, racism, and imperialism. Gradually over time, high school students were no longer forced to learn Latin, let alone Greek. And now we have gotten to the point where at major universities, there may be just one or two small Attic Greek courses taken by a total of 15 to 20 people (many amateurs) out of up to 40,000.

Jefferson would be appalled.

You should read Alfred Jay Nock's great work "The Theory of Education in the United States". It will spell a lot of this out to you. It is readily available online.

Moxie629 said:
I would say it's the extreme right, these days that's trying to limit the perimeters of solid foundational education. Creationism? And Texas being the last word on what text books put forward, because they have the power of the purse?

The leftist educators in America (starting with the likes of John Dewey) dumbed down education in America and destroyed standards. The vast majority of what goes on at universities is a complete waste of time and money. Professors curve scores constantly, there is no emphasis on grammar whatsoever, people are just funneled through in diploma mills.

In times past, nuns would smack kids for not doing their homework. Nowadays, collective failure is rewarded. If 400 people in a mega-class get an average of 55% on a final exam, it is all curved up so that everyone can pass the course.

To focus on the frankly minor issue of evolution being taught in the state of Texas as some kind of huge educational concern is silly, in light of the immense educational disaster created by anti-Christian leftists in America. I am a Catholic and I also believe in evolution. It took me all of 5 minutes to understand the concept of evolution and I was never troubled by it. Nor was Charles Darwin, a theist himself. On the other hand, billions and billions of dollars are poured into our public education system in the U.S. with precious little return.

If we had a classically educated elite class, no one would have been so obtuse as to call for "spreading democracy" in the Middle East, as both Republicans and Democrats did in the early 2000s. Merely suggesting such a thing in classically educated circles would draw puzzled looks and amused smiles. And somehow you are more concerned with an utterly trivial debate over evolution in Texas, as opposed to the rotten educational standards at Harvard and Yale which result in the U.S. government killing thousands of innocent people in careless wars?

Please. Get your priorities straight.
 

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^^@ Moxie

Plenty of marriages don't have commitment, I agree with you there. The human is a weak species.

Especially at 3.54am! :wow: :laydownlaughing

I'm off to sleep! And to be honest, I think I've thrashed this out as much as I can, without repeating myself. Galileo has shown us that things can go around and around, and with this, I believe we all can agree.

G'night sista! :smooch:)
 

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Kieran said:
^^@ Moxie

Plenty of marriages don't have commitment, I agree with you there. The human is a weak species.

Especially at 3.54am! :wow: :laydownlaughing

I'm off to sleep! And to be honest, I think I've thrashed this out as much as I can, without repeating myself. Galileo has shown us that things can go around and around, and with this, I believe we all can agree.

G'night sista! :smooch:)

Good night, my friend. You know we mostly understand each other. I may yet try to debate Cali on this, however an exercise in futility. :)
 

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We all have our place in the scheme of things, even Nalbandian fans - even Fedfans! :wow: - it's what makes the world a great and varied place... :smooch
 

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1972Murat said:
^Sure they did Cali. But I bet you like your indoor plumbing, no?

I absolutely do, but those prior generations had something to do with its creation as well.
 

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calitennis127 said:
Moxie629 said:
It's you who rejects the accepted term of "homophobia."

I rejected it because it is a misuse. There are many "accepted" things in the world which are simply wrong. The fact that it is "accepted" does not merely make me a difficult malcontent on this issue. Often times, the contrarians are right!

I am going by the proper use of the term. I took ancient Greek and one of the first suffixes we learned was -phobia, which meant "fear" or usually "irrational fear". So, properly speaking, the term "homophobia" means "fear, probably irrational fear, of homosexuals". The next question is, in what sense?

In a colloquial personal sense, I don't have any fear of homosexuals. In a political sense, I despise the gay advocacy movement. It is me who is going by the strict meanings here.

The term "homophobia" in common parlance is used to demean and de-legitimize any sort of opposition to gay rights or gay marriage. It is a psychologically totalitarian weapon, meant to intimidate and de-humanize. It ascribes irrationality and unpleasant attitudes to people who disagree with a certain moral or political position. Because of this, it is a misused word.

I understand the roots of the word. But just because you say you're not homophobic, doesn't mean you aren't. Still, in any case, if you prefer to be homo-intolerant, it doesn't cast you in a good light.
 

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Moxie629 said:
I understand the roots of the word. But just because you say you're not homophobic, doesn't mean you aren't. Still, in any case, if you prefer to be homo-intolerant, it doesn't cast you in a good light.

I have little reason in my own life to personally fear homosexuals.

As for being "homo-intolerant", it's all in how you define it. I have personally never condemned the behavior of a homosexual directly in my life. I really don't care about homosexuality on a personal level around me. Does that make me tolerant?

But I am intolerant of a misinformed and anti-human movement - which is what it deserves.