Covid vaccine - opinions?

[Front242]

Huh? I was repeating what the CEO of the company said. Yes, it took 2 hours to design the gene therapy. Which is exactly what I stated in the original post.

I didn't say it was old technology... quite the opposite. You were stating it's just like all the previous vaccines we've taken. It absolutely is not... and to roll out something of this nature, on this scale, without longer term data is reckless.

I said the same thing in earlier in this thread and was accused of making it up also.

 

[Moxie]

Britbox said some of the things I would have said, so I won't repeat those points. But one further thought on vaccines: the Moderna and Pfizer ones are "vaccines" in name only. They are a different technology, with no live virus, a combination of organic and synthetic material. And furthermore, they create a very specific spike protein, which doesn't have the broad effectiveness of natural immunity, and thus will probably require indefinite boosters. Meaning, it is potentially another way for Big Pharma to create reliance on them. I see it as not unlike installing an artificial immune system, which may overwrite the old one to some extend. We just don't know the long term impact this new technology will have on people. What we do know is that it is imperfect, which drives mutations, and--combined with the fact that it diminishes in potency--requires updates. Sort of like computer software.

The other thing I will respond to, is your assumption that people who don't buy the party line don't understand it, or how vaccines work (or are supposed to work), whether traditional or mRNA. The thing is, Moxie, this has been pushed down everyone's throats for the last 20 months. It would be hard not to understand at least the basics. It is well known and while I'm no scientist, I understand the basic logic of how vaccines work, and how these ones differ. That said, I have found that "pro-vaxxers" generally don't understand the alternate viewpoints, or at least far less than "anti-vaxxers" understand the orthodox narrative.

You make fair points about the vaccines containing no live virus. And I am trying to understand reasonable hesitancy. Obviously you are well-informed, but to pretend that everyone is would not be wholly accurate. Even you said you have friends who think that everyone who is against or hesitant about the Covid vaccine is a right-winger. I would call that a basic misunderstanding of the facts. What frustrates me is to hear how overwhelmed the hospitals/front-line care workers are, when they were hoping a vaccine might staunch the flow into hospitals.

I don't know if your approach is to expect to get Covid and work with the natural immunity that it provides, or just to expect that you won't get it. You don't have to answer that. But I do have a bit of a problem with taking the approach that it's Big Pharma creating another avenue of revenue. I have no love for Big Pharma. But I appreciated Kieran's post that he believes that the people who work on the vaccines are generally scientists of good will and good intention who want to find a way to keep people from dying of this. I'm not in the camp of underplaying it, particularly for how it affects the third world.

In any case, in this thread and this discuss amongst us, I think we all agree that a great tragedy has been the politicizing of it. I personally feel that that has stifled good conversation about it (not here, but in general,) and also allowed the early spread by attempting to deny it or downplay it.

 

[El Dude]

You make fair points about the vaccines containing no live virus. And I am trying to understand reasonable hesitancy. Obviously you are well-informed, but to pretend that everyone is would not be wholly accurate. Even you said you have friends who think that everyone who is against or hesitant about the Covid vaccine is a right-winger. I would call that a basic misunderstanding of the facts. What frustrates me is to hear how overwhelmed the hospitals/front-line care workers are, when they were hoping a vaccine might staunch the flow into hospitals.

Yeah, the whole thing is frustrating, no matter how you look at it. And I agree with you that many are ill-informed, on both sides of the argument. This is why I think the politicization of this is so unfortunate: the "sheep"--whether left or right--just go with what groupthink they've pledged allegiance to.

As for hospitals, a couple things to consider. One, a lot are "overwhelmed" because their ICUs were downsized, and so they are only overwhelmed relative to smaller capacity. Two, part of the overwhelm is not enough staff, yet in what sort of pandemic do you lay off thousands of health care workers, regardless of vax status? If its "all hands on deck," you need all hands. And third, some of those numbers aren't covid...I saw an article in a mainstream source that said hospitals and/or the media are overstating how much of hospitalizations are actually due to covid.

I don't know if your approach is to expect to get Covid and work with the natural immunity that it provides, or just to expect that you won't get it. You don't have to answer that. But I do have a bit of a problem with taking the approach that it's Big Pharma creating another avenue of revenue. I have no love for Big Pharma. But I appreciated Kieran's post that he believes that the people who work on the vaccines are generally scientists of good will and good intention who want to find a way to keep people from dying of this. I'm not in the camp of underplaying it, particularly for how it affects the third world.

In any case, in this thread and this discuss amongst us, I think we all agree that a great tragedy has been the politicizing of it. I personally feel that that has stifled good conversation about it (not here, but in general,) and also allowed the early spread by attempting to deny it or downplay it.

I think the view of many vax-hesitant is that they'd rather take their chances with covid than with the vaccines, for a variety of reasons. Some think it is a contrived "plandemic," while others point to the high survival rate (between 98-99.9%, depending upon age, and then adjusting for co-morbidities). Still others think it is possible they already had it (I think something like 80% are asymptomatic) and already have natural immunity...among other reasons.

As for what I think should have been done, well, probably just let it run its course early on. Protect the vulnerable, but let the virus run its course, so it doesn't mutate and herd immunity is reached. And then, if you must--and only then--vaccinate. But it is well known within virology that you should never vaccinate during a pandemic, especially when the vaccine is imperfect, because it drives mutation. It is hard for me to believe that the medical establishment doesn't realize this, which is why I tend to think something nefarious is afoot.

My criticism of pharma--and "big science"--goes a lot deeper, but I'd rather not go too far astray, and it would take too much to explain my entire worldview, let alone justify it. So I'm keeping to the specifics of the conversation at hand. But the deeper I've dug over the last couple years, the more I've come to feel just how corrupt the whole medical industry is, and how it is a business like any other that seeks to maximize profits and create new and repeat customers, the customers being the sick.

I honestly don't know why so many scientists and doctors are going along with this whole thing. I suspect it varies, depending upon the person: some of it is fear (not wanting to be ostracized and/or lose their job); some is ignorance, and some of it is actual greed and enjoying the comforts of their six-to-seven figure salaries, etc. This is not to say that some, even many, doctors aren't of good faith - I think that is clearly the case. But even then, ignorance creeps in, and "playing by the system" (my example above of my father's medical treatment, which pretty much ignores anything that he can do for his own health, and is mostly about doling out drugs and expensive treatments).

I'm glad that this thread has been (mostly, as much as I've ready) civil, with signs of mutual respect. The funny thing is, we get more pissed off with each other over the GOAT debate than a (real or so-called) pandemic!

 

[britbox]

I read an article in the Sunday Times (London) about the Oxford crew working on the AstraZeneca vaccine and they had been working on it for years, mRNA and all. There was no Blofeld in the lab, just engaged and inquisitive scientists. I have reservations about vaccine policies and the way this is being pushed in Ireland, and a healthy distrust of big pharma, whose products I haven’t used in twenty years, except for getting vaccinated this time, and a permanent distaste towards our politicians and media, but no reservations about the goodwill of the scientists I read about…

EDIT: none of this is to say that people are wrong to have caveats about taking the virus, about long term effects, about their own immune system, or about what they feel is the most effective way for them to navigate through the pandemic, people are wise if they question the prevailing culture - especially nowadays - and chose for themselves what they feel is best…

It wasn't even supposed to be an AstraZeneca vaccine mate. Oxford were supposedly developing for the common good, before they were instructed to let AstraZeneca muscle in to monetize it.

I'm sure there are plenty of scientists working for the common good (in fact most of them). However, they are are cogs in a much bigger machine. Machines outside of their own control.

Take Pfizer for instance. The rap sheet is long:

Crimes of Covid Vaccine Maker Pfizer Documented

Pfizer's failings are well documented and worth reviewing at this critical time in human history as we all search for answers.

www.dmlawfirm.com

In a nutshell, that's billions of dollars of fines for false advertising, bribery, misleading regulators, using children as guinea pigs, paying doctors.

Are all Pfizer scientists bad? Of course not. But the machine they work for is not a "common good" actor - rather, a predatory corporation. Neither is AstraZeneca (their rap sheet isn't much better). El Dude is correct - there is no money in health...just sickness.

 

[Moxie]

Yeah, the whole thing is frustrating, no matter how you look at it. And I agree with you that many are ill-informed, on both sides of the argument. This is why I think the politicization of this is so unfortunate: the "sheep"--whether left or right--just go with what groupthink they've pledged allegiance to.

As for hospitals, a couple things to consider. One, a lot are "overwhelmed" because their ICUs were downsized, and so they are only overwhelmed relative to smaller capacity. Two, part of the overwhelm is not enough staff, yet in what sort of pandemic do you lay off thousands of health care workers, regardless of vax status? If its "all hands on deck," you need all hands. And third, some of those numbers aren't covid...I saw an article in a mainstream source that said hospitals and/or the media are overstating how much of hospitalizations are actually due to covid.

I have to tell you this: I did a whole project last summer interviewing 52 doctors at a major hospital in NYC. Their ICU's were not "downsized." In fact, they were turning various and sundry parts of their hospitals into covid wards, because they couldn't handle the need. You are speaking to generalized notions of downsizing, and also to the issue of not allowing people to work because of vax-status, which is new, and now. I'm speaking to a very specific time last summer. The reason I cite it is that these doctors, (the heads of departments all of them,) were really stressed and quite emotional about how Covid was affecting their hospitals. They had even lost an important neurosurgeon to Covid, which they still speak of when I interviewed them again last month. This is not some general notion of what happens in hospitals across the country. This is very specific, and about their experience.

As to ICU's across the country, they are not so much down-sized, as not equipped to handle massive patients in extremis at one time. We can discuss the state of health care in this country, which I think is deplorable, but don't try to tell me that the fact that our healthcare system has been overwhelmed with Covid patients is just because we understaffed them in the first place. When was the last time that you heard that a hospital in TX or ND or CA couldn't handle the patients that arrived at their doors? A friend of mine is an anesthesiologist in LA, and he had all of his surgeries cancelled one day last month because there were no nurses available to attend surgery, as they were all in the ER attending to Covid patients.

I think the view of many vax-hesitant is that they'd rather take their chances with covid than with the vaccines, for a variety of reasons. Some think it is a contrived "plandemic," while others point to the high survival rate (between 98-99.9%, depending upon age, and then adjusting for co-morbidities). Still others think it is possible they already had it (I think something like 80% are asymptomatic) and already have natural immunity...among other reasons.

As for what I think should have been done, well, probably just let it run its course early on. Protect the vulnerable, but let the virus run its course, so it doesn't mutate and herd immunity is reached. And then, if you must--and only then--vaccinate. But it is well known within virology that you should never vaccinate during a pandemic, especially when the vaccine is imperfect, because it drives mutation. It is hard for me to believe that the medical establishment doesn't realize this, which is why I tend to think something nefarious is afoot.

You take the tack that Front does, which is that, if you're young and healthy, take your chances. But that doesn't account for the vulnerable, and those who are old or have otherwise co-morbidities, who died of it, when they needn't yet have died. It breaks my heart that some would say, "well, they were old, and rather sick, anyway." What if that was YOUR loved one? We all die eventually, but no one deserves to die of a disease, just because they have other health issues.

My criticism of pharma--and "big science"--goes a lot deeper, but I'd rather not go too far astray, and it would take too much to explain my entire worldview, let alone justify it. So I'm keeping to the specifics of the conversation at hand. But the deeper I've dug over the last couple years, the more I've come to feel just how corrupt the whole medical industry is, and how it is a business like any other that seeks to maximize profits and create new and repeat customers, the customers being the sick.

I agree that there is a lot in here, and it is beyond shameful.

I honestly don't know why so many scientists and doctors are going along with this whole thing. I suspect it varies, depending upon the person: some of it is fear (not wanting to be ostracized and/or lose their job); some is ignorance, and some of it is actual greed and enjoying the comforts of their six-to-seven figure salaries, etc. This is not to say that some, even many, doctors aren't of good faith - I think that is clearly the case. But even then, ignorance creeps in, and "playing by the system" (my example above of my father's medical treatment, which pretty much ignores anything that he can do for his own health, and is mostly about doling out drugs and expensive treatments).

It bothers me that you come up with "fear," "ignorance," and "greed" when you talk about these medical professionals, but don't give them much credit for caring for the greater good. I really do understand your frustration having an elderly parent in healthcare. I have been there, even recently. I think they tend to be stuck in Western medicine and pharmacological solutions, but they are not generally closed-minded, or actual venal in their decisions. It's cynical to think so.

I'm glad that this thread has been (mostly, as much as I've ready) civil, with signs of mutual respect. The funny thing is, we get more pissed off with each other over the GOAT debate than a (real or so-called) pandemic!

This just made me laugh. We can discuss the pandemic, but GOAT debate is LIFE OR DEATH!

 

[britbox]

Just to nitpick, as I understand it, they had the tech and had been developing it for decades, but the specific vaccine took 2 hours to design. It is sort of like having a 3D printer...the printer already existed, they just entered the code and, voila, a specific vaccine.

Yes, agreed. But I go back and forth between thinking this is a massive fuckup based on scientific hubris and stupidity, or completely engineered ala the NWO stuff. Due to various factors--and especially the unparalleled media censorship campaign of any dissenting views--I tend towards the latter.

Dude, I believe all technology is discovered long before it hits the public domain. Almost certainly used initially by the military and then given over to "safe" pairs of hands to take forward commercially. Most discoveries are really "re-discoveries" of things from the past anyway. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Kieran]

This thread is certainly more civil than most things we read in the news, but I think in real life, people have a right to be angry in certain countries, at the way their governments are behaving. In Ireland, you can sit in a badly ventilated bus for seven hours going from Kerry to Dublin airport if you’re unvaccinated, but you can’t sit in a caff and chew the fat, chew the croissants, for twenty minutes without a vaccine.

In fact, the politicising of the science, and the vaccine, and the silencing of dissenters, has been one of the most wasteful and shameful aspects of how we’ve handled this. I’ve even seen Sam Harris, an intellect with generally impeccable liberal values, state that people discussing alternatives to the mainstream government enforced route should be silent, because their asking questions is getting people killed. This is not good. So many areas now, we’re told to shut up because asking questions is killing people. Telling jokes is killing people too, apparently. Dave Chappelle is in the news longer than Afghanistan. Seems to be a bigger issue, while at the same time being an absolute non-issue. Meanwhile, “trusting the science” will have us refer to women as “bodies with vaginas”, “people who menstruate” and “the people who can’t parallel park.”

Science has become politicised, when it should be anything but.

This is all a problem because it foments an atmosphere of mistrust in science, politics, etc, while contributing to a sense that these smokescreen noises are covering up bigger problems. These are grand narrative shapeshifting schemes that are normalising the idea that we should be forced to be silent about what’s happening, because our need for speech is killing some people, when in fact, the exact opposite is true - we need more speech, more comedians, and more debate about what’s going on…

 

[britbox]

This thread is certainly more civil than most things we read in the news, but I think in real life, people have a right to be angry in certain countries, at the way their governments are behaving. In Ireland, you can sit in a badly ventilated bus for seven hours going from Kerry to Dublin airport if you’re unvaccinated, but you can’t sit in a caff and chew the fat, chew the croissants, for twenty minutes without a vaccine.

In fact, the politicising of the science, and the vaccine, and the silencing of dissenters, has been one of the most wasteful and shameful aspects of how we’ve handled this. I’ve even seen Sam Harris, an intellect with generally impeccable liberal values, state that people discussing alternatives to the mainstream government enforced route should be silent, because their asking questions is getting people killed. This is not good. So many areas now, we’re told to shut up because asking questions is killing people. Telling jokes is killing people too, apparently. Dave Chappelle is in the news longer than Afghanistan. Seems to be a bigger issue, while at the same time being an absolute non-issue. Meanwhile, “trusting the science” will have us refer to women as “bodies with vaginas”, “people who menstruate” and “the people who can’t parallel park.”

Science has become politicised, when it should be anything but.

This is all a problem because it foments an atmosphere of mistrust in science, politics, etc, while contributing to a sense that these smokescreen noises are covering up bigger problems. These are grand narrative shapeshifting schemes that are normalising the idea that we should be forced to be silent about what’s happening, because our need for speech is killing some people, when in fact, the exact opposite is true - we need more speech, more comedians, and more debate about what’s going on…

My partner who menstruates can parallel park better than me!

Yes, the whole world is appearing inverted right now. Somebody I know was given a timeout from that trash bin known as Facebook for "inciting violence" after posting a Samuel L Jackson quote from Pulp Fiction in a comment. Another had a post removed advertising for a "Handyman" to do some odd jobs. Apparently "Handyman" goes against Facebook's community inclusion standards. Presumably because of the word "man". Or possibly because it excludes people without hands.

I'm waiting on a viral campaign for people to wear flippers and jump into a paddling pool of boiling water in order to raise awareness for mental health.

 

[britbox]

Just to nitpick, as I understand it, they had the tech and had been developing it for decades, but the specific vaccine took 2 hours to design. It is sort of like having a 3D printer...the printer already existed, they just entered the code and, voila, a specific vaccine.

Yes, agreed. But I go back and forth between thinking this is a massive fuckup based on scientific hubris and stupidity, or completely engineered ala the NWO stuff. Due to various factors--and especially the unparalleled media censorship campaign of any dissenting views--I tend towards the latter.

Yes, me too. Most significant events are manufactured. Problem - Reaction - Solution.

 

[Kieran]

My partner who menstruates can parallel park better than me!

Yes, the whole world is appearing inverted right now. Somebody I know was given a timeout from that trash bin known as Facebook for "inciting violence" after posting a Samuel L Jackson quote from Pulp Fiction in a comment. Another had a post removed advertising for a "Handyman" to do some odd jobs. Apparently "Handyman" goes against Facebook's community inclusion standards. Presumably because of the word "man". Or possibly because it excludes people without hands.

I'm waiting on a viral campaign for people to wear flippers and jump into a paddling pool of boiling water in order to raise awareness for mental health.

Every sentence of this is deserving of a laugh, but also a few tears because of how far we’ve fallen in the west…

 

[britbox]

Every sentence of this is deserving of a laugh, but also a few tears because of how far we’ve fallen in the west…

Do you think this came to fruition?



Either way, if it wasn't the Russians, the concept still appears valid.

 

[Kieran]

Do you think this came to fruition?



Either way, if it wasn't the Russians, the concept still appears valid.

I’ll have a listen to that later, I’m still in bed and a People With More Hair is reading beside me. People With More Hair can become irrationally emotional when People With Three Legs suddenly start listening to videos in bed..

 

[Kieran]

Do you think this came to fruition?



Either way, if it wasn't the Russians, the concept still appears valid.

It’s a demoralising listen, isn’t it? The missus is from the old Soviet Union so I’ve heard so many tales of how and why communism/socialism is such a sin against humanity, and a friend of ours once asked me why the west, having defeated these bad ideas was now imitating them, referring explicitly to the perils of group identity politics. I had no answer, of course.

But this isn’t the only problem. He mentions in the video university professors, which are an obvious problem, so many of them have internalised intersectional politics and teach as if they themselves are activists for some bogey proposition, but there’s something in a generation of people growing up who need to be coddled and kept from hearing things that might make them cry, because of their emotional fragility. Jonathan Haidt talks and writes very eloquently about this, and it isn’t only an American issue, we see this level of “activism” in Ireland too, and it’s a concern but also something that needs to be resisted. Thankfully this isn’t the default setting for all young people of that generation, who are generally brilliant and engaging, but it’s loudest ones who do the harm. And in the context of covid, where we’re constantly preached a false notion of compassion, then if we were to believe this notion, we may become ourselves hysterical, judgmental and prohibitive of the freedoms of others…

 

[britbox]

It’s a demoralising listen, isn’t it? The missus is from the old Soviet Union so I’ve heard so many tales of how and why communism/socialism is such a sin against humanity, and a friend of ours once asked me why the west, having defeated these bad ideas was now imitating them, referring explicitly to the perils of group identity politics. I had no answer, of course.

But this isn’t the only problem. He mentions in the video university professors, which are an obvious problem, so many of them have internalised intersectional politics and teach as if they themselves are activists for some bogey proposition, but there’s something in a generation of people growing up who need to be coddled and kept from hearing things that might make them cry, because of their emotional fragility. Jonathan Haidt talks and writes very eloquently about this, and it isn’t only an American issue, we see this level of “activism” in Ireland too, and it’s a concern but also something that needs to be resisted. Thankfully this isn’t the default setting for all young people of that generation, who are generally brilliant and engaging, but it’s loudest ones who do the harm. And in the context of covid, where we’re constantly preached a false notion of compassion, then if we were to believe this notion, we may become ourselves hysterical, judgmental and prohibitive of the freedoms of others…

Every society needs a social conscience. Free market predatory capitalism is worse than communism in my opinion and even bigger threat to humanity. You always need checks and balances. These things come and go in cycles... Communism looks attractive when the capitalism cycle comes to an end... Capitalism looks attractive when communism moves into the realm of Orwell's 1984 or Huxley's "Brave New World".

A new paradigm is needed... I don't think the Word Economic Forum model fits the bill. It combines the worst of both models as a solution. The Elites consolidate even more power while everything else is a race to the bottom.

 

[britbox]

It’s a demoralising listen, isn’t it? The missus is from the old Soviet Union so I’ve heard so many tales of how and why communism/socialism is such a sin against humanity, and a friend of ours once asked me why the west, having defeated these bad ideas was now imitating them, referring explicitly to the perils of group identity politics. I had no answer, of course.

But this isn’t the only problem. He mentions in the video university professors, which are an obvious problem, so many of them have internalised intersectional politics and teach as if they themselves are activists for some bogey proposition, but there’s something in a generation of people growing up who need to be coddled and kept from hearing things that might make them cry, because of their emotional fragility. Jonathan Haidt talks and writes very eloquently about this, and it isn’t only an American issue, we see this level of “activism” in Ireland too, and it’s a concern but also something that needs to be resisted. Thankfully this isn’t the default setting for all young people of that generation, who are generally brilliant and engaging, but it’s loudest ones who do the harm. And in the context of covid, where we’re constantly preached a false notion of compassion, then if we were to believe this notion, we may become ourselves hysterical, judgmental and prohibitive of the freedoms of others…

Russians play the long game. It's probably why they've churned out so many chess grandmasters over the years. They are virtually debt-free with substantial reserves in precious metals. The US and Western Civilization are swamped in debt... destroyed by greed and corruption, cartels... the moral compass was lost long ago if you are honest with yourself. It feels like the end of an age. Let's make the new one better instead of trying to go back to "normal". There will be chaos for a while... but that's almost inevitable. The Economic Ponzi scheme (let's call it what it is) is unsustainable, and the can cannot be kicked down the road any longer.

 

[Kieran]

Every society needs a social conscience. Free market predatory capitalism is worse than communism in my opinion and even bigger threat to humanity. You always need checks and balances. These things come and go in cycles... Communism looks attractive when the capitalism cycle comes to an end... Capitalism looks attractive when communism moves into the realm of Orwell's 1984 or Huxley's "Brave New World".

A new paradigm is needed... I don't think the Word Economic Forum model fits the bill. It combines the worst of both models as a solution. The Elites consolidate even more power while everything else is a race to the bottom.

Communism never looks attractive, brother, only to people who want an even more brutal route to the top than rampant Capitalists. But I agree, predatory capitalism is also a huge threat. We need restraints on capitalism, and a social conscience that reminds us that we're a community, not a cesspool of competing ideologies, or political fads...

 

[Kieran]

Russians play the long game. It's probably why they've churned out so many chess grandmasters over the years. They are virtually debt-free with substantial reserves in precious metals. The US and Western Civilization are swamped in debt... destroyed by greed and corruption, cartels... the moral compass was lost long ago if you are honest with yourself. It feels like the end of an age. Let's make the new one better instead of trying to go back to "normal". There will be chaos for a while... but that's almost inevitable. The Economic Ponzi scheme (let's call it what it is) is unsustainable, and the can cannot be kicked down the road any longer.

The Russians are good at playing bluff - and chess - but I'm not overly concerned about them, and even less impressed. As I say, we know loads of people in the former-USSR and they know what's up there. The real issue is that you're right, western civilisation is in crisis, and there's no sign of anybody coming along soon to lead us out of the current mess...

 

[britbox]

Communism never looks attractive, brother, only to people who want an even more brutal route to the top than rampant Capitalists. But I agree, predatory capitalism is also a huge threat. We need restraints on capitalism, and a social conscience that reminds us that we're a community, not a cesspool of competing ideologies, or political fads...

I'd imagine that depends on circumstances squire. For some, I'd imagine it be very attractive - for those left behind and forgotten.

I usually revert to the hierarchy of human needs... which begins with food and shelter. Communism covers that. Capitalism doesn't.

As an aside, I remember flying out to an Oakland Raiders NFL game in 2009. I went there with a pal who had just recovered from brain cancer. We'd followed the Raiders since the early 80's and it was on his "bucket list" of things to do. Time was running out for my old friend. He knew it would return.

We arrived in San Francisco and got the BART (local train service) up to Market Street where we were staying. San Francisco is one of the most incredible places I've ever been to - mass wealth mixed in with mass poverty - all in touching distance.

For somebody, growing up in the UK, the USA was always pitched as a kind of Utopia "The American Dream"... we were fed on a diet of Dallas, Dynasty, Falcon Crest, Beverley Hills 90210.... the reality was very different IMO. I saw people who "made it" and those that didn't (with a fine line of one or two choices splitting both parties).

I said to my mate, this is like "28 Days Later" with the number of homeless people around. It was a complete shock. I'd never seen anything like it.

In those days, I used to smoke cigarettes and would sit outside the hotel having a puff. Invariably, random homeless would approach me for one... and I used to engage them and talk. Nobody gets a cig without their life story... always the same thing... a couple of wrong choices, usually relating to drugs... and chucked on the scrap heap. These were real people brother. Chess boards lined market street... They weren't stupid... just spat out by society.

I learned a lot of life lessons on that trip. Everyone is playing with different hands of cards.

Incidentally, we were due to go back again, a couple of years later... and I figured out the Raiders convention for email addresses and managed to get in touch with Amy Trask, the first female CEO of an NFL team. I sent a "hit and hope" email based on a guessed email address. My friend had relapsed, got Stage 4 brain cancer and was on borrowed time.

She responded immediately, on her "Blackberry" (old Tech by todays standards!!) and got us fixed up with visits to the Alameda training camp to meet players etc. Unfortunately, my mate died before we got to go... but she was a fucking star.

 

[Kieran]

I'd imagine that depends on circumstances squire. For some, I'd imagine it be very attractive - for those left behind and forgotten.

I usually revert to the hierarchy of human needs... which begins with food and shelter. Communism covers that. Capitalism doesn't.

As an aside, I remember flying out to an Oakland Raiders NFL game in 2009. I went there with a pal who had just recovered from brain cancer. We'd followed the Raiders since the early 80's and it was on his "bucket list" of things to do. Time was running out for my old friend. He knew it would return.

We arrived in San Francisco and got the BART (local train service) up to Market Street where we were staying. San Francisco is one of the most incredible places I've ever been to - mass wealth mixed in with mass poverty - all in touching distance.

For somebody, growing up in the UK, the USA was always pitched as a kind of Utopia "The American Dream"... we were fed on a diet of Dallas, Dynasty, Falcon Crest, Beverley Hills 90210.... the reality was very different IMO. I saw people who "made it" and those that didn't (with a fine line of one or two choices splitting both parties).

I said to my mate, this is like "28 Days Later" with the number of homeless people around. It was a complete shock. I'd never seen anything like it.

In those days, I used to smoke cigarettes and would sit outside the hotel having a puff. Invariably, random homeless would approach me for one... and I used to engage them and talk. Nobody gets a cig without their life story... always the same thing... a couple of wrong choices, usually relating to drugs... and chucked on the scrap heap. These were real people brother. Chess boards lined market street... They weren't stupid... just spat out by society.

I learned a lot of life lessons on that trip. Everyone is playing with different hands of cards.

Incidentally, we were due to go back again, a couple of years later... and I figured out the Raiders convention for email addresses and managed to get in touch with Amy Trask, the first female CEO of an NFL team. I sent a "hit and hope" email based on a guessed email address. My friend had relapsed, got Stage 4 brain cancer and was on borrowed time.

She responded immediately, on her "Blackberry" (old Tech by todays standards!!) and got us fixed up with visits to the Alameda training camp to meet players etc. Unfortunately, my mate died before we got to go... but she was a fucking star.

Sorry to hear about your friend, that's a tragic tale, but with a real heroine in it too. There's practical reasons why communism always fails, but that's a whole nother thread. And one that hasn't ever been resolved in over 150 years...

 

[britbox]

Sorry to hear about your friend, that's a tragic tale, but with a real heroine in it too. There's practical reasons why communism always fails, but that's a whole nother thread. And one that hasn't ever been resolved in over 150 years...

There are practical reasons why both fail IMO. Capitalism ends up eating itself... at least where checks and balances are removed. Complete systematic failure leads to revolution.