Cincinnati Master 1000

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reactions
14,997
Points
113
He's not gonna just say it's him but it's obvious to anyone watching tennis. He has every shot in the book and more, eg. SABR and is the tweener maestro. And no one to date has been able to re-invent themselves to the extent he has, still at the top of the game against guys half his age thanks to more aggressive, first strike tennis and a greatly improved backhand. The other guys his age have barely adapted at all and play the same games they always did and that's why they've stagnated or retired already. His tennis also looks so effortless by comparison so it's a non discussion imo. He was just being PC :)
^ Or it could mean he's stubborn, refuses to change. He definitely should have cut down on the grinding and stopped staying 15 feet behind the baseline. That doesn't show a high tennis IQ.
This thread is in a two-pronged conversation, so I'll address the other: I disagree with you that Roger is the best to date at reinventing himself. Rafa has actually done the better job of adapting his game as he went along. Roger waited 13 years into his rivalry with Nadal to make an effective change. Nadal made changes to combat Djokovic, for example. (He has a very good record against him in Majors, including post-2011.) He's considered to have a high tennis IQ, and is great at adapting to a player within a match. Roger stubbornly hung onto the notion that his talent (and perhaps aura) would get him through some years beyond when that was proven not to be the case with Nadal. He even went coachless for a long period. He's made some changes in recent years, but Rafa has been a tinkerer of his game all along. (PS: I believe Kyrgios wins more points with his tweener, though not, so far, such important ones.)
 

Murat Baslamisli

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,337
Reactions
1,055
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Aurora, Ontario, Canada
Website
www.drummershangout.ca
Congrats to Grior. Some of us thought he was going to be here 3-4 years earlier but better late than never.

As for Nick...Congrats on the first 1000 final. I can see what he can do but I have seen a lot of people with "potential" end up doing nothing. The key words for him are dedication and maturity. And I don't think he is ready for a serious coach right now. I have e feeling he is maybe a year away from a coach like Lendl or Edberg.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reactions
14,997
Points
113
That is surely true (one of his greatest strenghts, btw)... but we have a saying in Brazil that a stubborn Spanish is a pleonasm (I guess not only here). Anyway, ok, if apart from looking stronger than the others and hitting balls you need amazing strength to even think about it we need another evidence, like some certificate from the ATP tatoed on his back, fine.
You might say, as Brazilians, that Spaniards are stubborn by birthright, but ask Darth...Greeks are considered so, too. And Sicilians. These are cultural cliches that we embrace, even those of us who are of whatever heritage. But it doesn't really explain a player with incredible focus and and commitment to each point. That's why Rafa is The Bull, and also, yes, because he's built like one, for a tennis player, and because it is a symbol of Spain. Obviously, Nadal is very strong. As Carol says, he comes by his physique a lot via his genes. It doesn't need reminding that his uncle was a top footballer. But all of the elite players are strong, and strong in different ways. Yes, some of Rafa's shots rely on his incredible strength. That's undeniable. But he also has incredible speed and footwork. Roger relies more on fleetness of foot and variety of shots. To those who are trying to decide which, however has the greater "talent," (and I know we have a thread for this,) I don't think it's as clear-cut as some Federer fans would have it. I know you, @mrzz, and @Federberg, as two examples, are willing to credit Nadal's talent. If it comes down to hardware, weeks at #1 and whatever, I get why Federer is at the top of the pile, but it chaps me no end the people that try to say that Nadal is less talented. It's a subjective call, and one that I think is not necessary. Federer holds more records. But do folks really think, at these heights, that Nadal isn't as talent, even if just differently?
 

The Strokes

Futures Player
Joined
Aug 12, 2017
Messages
195
Reactions
67
Points
28
I don't hate to think so...I'd love to see Nick realize his potential. It would be great for the game, as we see the last years of the Big Four. I don't agree with those that would have him a Monfils/Tsonga with a better serve. His ground game was pathetic today, but when it's on, it's creative (and I don't mean just trick shots) and he has a super-live arm. He is a naturally gifted athlete, like those named and the top guys. The big question is if he will ever fully commit himself. I do feel he blew his wad a bit in the Rafa match, and didn't reach that height again in SF or F. An interesting point the commentators made in my feed was that Dimitrov was more relaxed playing Nick than he would have been had his opponent been, say, Rafa, or another of the big 4. But good for him...he was loose and focused and played a terrific match from his side of the net. I really do think that Kyrgios needs a coach.

Well when I say "I hate to think what he could acheive" I'm being a bit ironic. But there are other young players I'd rather see at the very top of the game.

I agree with you re Tsonga/Monfils--that was not my comparison; but I don't think he shot his wad on Nadal--I thought Rafa was really bad and made Nick look better than he was. Rafa couldn't test Nick on the ground, and couldn't return his serve. At least on that day on that surface (I don't mean in general.) Dimitrov playing at the top of his game put Nick into context. I don't think Nick has a complete ground game yet, he has some spectacular shots, but Dimi just looked so much better.
I know NIck can play at a very high level, that match against Fed where he had MPs (then DF'd!) at IW I think.

Agree the question is whether Nick will ever fully commit himself. Did you read the New Yorker article on him JUly10? Quite illuminating--he doesn't really like the life--the tennis life, the routine.
He's already matured somewhat; maybe he will embrace what he's got and maximize it. I heard one commie--speculate that Nick's ego prevents him from fully engaging, in cases he doesn't end up on top. Hmmmm ... Well today he seemed fully engaged, and he was well behaved, gracious at the end.

I go back and forth as far as liking him, but either way I prefer Dimi.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reactions
14,997
Points
113
Well when I say "I hate to think what he could acheive" I'm being a bit ironic. But there are other young players I'd rather see at the very top of the game.

I agree with you re Tsonga/Monfils--that was not my comparison; but I don't think he shot his wad on Nadal--I thought Rafa was really bad and made Nick look better than he was. Rafa couldn't test Nick on the ground, and couldn't return his serve. At least on that day on that surface (I don't mean in general.) Dimitrov playing at the top of his game put Nick into context. I don't think Nick has a complete ground game yet, he has some spectacular shots, but Dimi just looked so much better.
I know NIck can play at a very high level, that match against Fed where he had MPs (then DF'd!) at IW I think.

Agree the question is whether Nick will ever fully commit himself. Did you read the New Yorker article on him JUly10? Quite illuminating--he doesn't really like the life--the tennis life, the routine.
He's already matured somewhat; maybe he will embrace what he's got and maximize it. I heard one commie--speculate that Nick's ego prevents him from fully engaging, in cases he doesn't end up on top. Hmmmm ... Well today he seemed fully engaged, and he was well behaved, gracious at the end.

I go back and forth as far as liking him, but either way I prefer Dimi.
No, I get your comment. I'm sure you're curious, as we all are, what Nick might achieve. And I agree that Rafa had a bad day the other day. If he couldn't play ARV better, he wasn't likely to get Nick. But then we all diverge on Nick: is he really talented and just lazy/uninspired? Or is he just a pretty talented guy who needs a lot of work and may not ever get it done? I think that question is still open. I did read that article, and there's another one on him from the NYT magazine around last USO. IMO, at the moment, the two most interesting questions in men's tennis are: is Nick Kyrgios the real deal, and can he pull it together? And, what goes on with Djokovic, and will he come back full strength?
Everyone else rather lines up with their capabilities. Even Dimitrov, though he had a really long slide to this finally getting a MS 1000.
 

Carol

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
9,225
Reactions
1,833
Points
113
To say that Nadal has less talent than Federer is a nonsense that only his fans can say since Miami 2004. That match was such a shock for them plus the following matches for years that still at the present they can't forgive him trying hard to dismiss his unbelievable career and achievements starting on clay where he started to play at the age 4 years old. And the most incredible thing is being a natural right hand he can do even better with his left which could be only more conflictive with his serve. Of course he is a strong guy (you have only to see his perfect shaped legs, typical Spanish legs) and also his mentally strength which is as important as the game and so lost for almost three years but little by little recovering though after RG he has not done too much. Agreed that he doesn't have the best serve which is the main weapon in HC and grass but thanks to his great talent he can win too and I don't think others players without a good serve would have the same great results as he has, no way
And by the way because Kyrgios is part of the conversation these days again because he beat Nadal.....can you imagine this guy without that good serve? he would need to improve a bunch of things to be "someone"
 

GameSetAndMath

The GOAT
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
21,141
Reactions
3,398
Points
113
Congrats to Grigor. I hope El Dude does not start a separate thread projecting Grigor to be the next best start.
 

The Strokes

Futures Player
Joined
Aug 12, 2017
Messages
195
Reactions
67
Points
28
No, I get your comment. I'm sure you're curious, as we all are, what Nick might achieve. And I agree that Rafa had a bad day the other day. If he couldn't play ARV better, he wasn't likely to get Nick. But then we all diverge on Nick: is he really talented and just lazy/uninspired? Or is he just a pretty talented guy who needs a lot of work and may not ever get it done? I think that question is still open. I did read that article, and there's another one on him from the NYT magazine around last USO. IMO, at the moment, the two most interesting questions in men's tennis are: is Nick Kyrgios the real deal, and can he pull it together? And, what goes on with Djokovic, and will he come back full strength?
Everyone else rather lines up with their capabilities. Even Dimitrov, though he had a really long slide to this finally getting a MS 1000.

If Djok comes back full strength I think he could still dominate--not on clay but HC and grass. UNless Rafa really raises it another couple levels on HC. Maybe having MOya with him will make a difference.

I don't see that more upside in Nick than I do in Zverev, or Dimitrov, or in a few years Shap. Not sure what's happened to Thiem lately. Some of the young Russians could also pan out in a few years.
I think Nick is extremely flashy, virtuosic, at times--and he did hold it together mentally in Cincy, so who knows ... Don't have faith in his willingness to suffer, and to work really really hard.
I did read the NYTs piece too. The New Yorker one was more sympathetic, I thought.
Nick is a real character--it's hard not to be interested in him, whether negatively or positively.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reactions
14,997
Points
113
Well, that's all I wanted to get out of you about Nick. Thiem is stalwart, maybe more than great, but he over-plays. Everyone seems to think clay will be his surface, and I agree, but he trains hard, has a good head, and needs to learn to manage his schedule better. Zverev I have high ambitions for. Great game, and a good head.
 

The Strokes

Futures Player
Joined
Aug 12, 2017
Messages
195
Reactions
67
Points
28
I have actually softened alot towards Nick in the last year.
If you want to see some real venom and bile, go on some other other sites--Talk tennis, talk about tennis and see what posters are saying about him.
He gets bashed up the wazoo.
 

mrzz

Hater
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,330
Reactions
3,247
Points
113
Brazil! I love all things Brazilllian, but especially the music.
I like Belluci quite a bit, and loved Guga too.
And thank you for pleonasm, I had to look it up that almost never happens on a tennis forum.
The Spanish tend to have good stubborn tennis heads--except Verdasco ...

So who is your man Mrzz? Is it Murray? I make that guess based on your name, close to muzz ...

Thanks for the kindness, Strokes... unfortunately I am not exactly a fan of Brazilian music... something here and there for sure, but in general I am not the best person to talk too on the subject... Guga is from my hometown, the guy is very easy going and never let the success get to his head.

Verdasco is surely is stubborn. He never gives up of closing his eyes and ripping the ball in every single opportunity -- but I am not complaining, it is quite fun to watch.

Oh, Federer fan here -- but I try to be as less partisan as I can. About Murray, I use to torture people here with my favorite punchline, peak Wawrinka > peak Murray. Mrzz is just a random assembly of consonants from my name and surname.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reactions
14,997
Points
113
I have actually softened alot towards Nick in the last year.
If you want to see some real venom and bile, go on some other other sites--Talk tennis, talk about tennis and see what posters are saying about him.
He gets bashed up the wazoo.
I have nipped into those sites over the years and, no thanks! I'll take your word for it. For me, I just say give the guy a chance. On a similar note, I've been harsh on Dimitrov, but it's a lot about getting burned. As I said yesterday, I'm perfectly happy to see him do well, but I've lost the je ne sais qua that it takes to be in his camp.
 

mrzz

Hater
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,330
Reactions
3,247
Points
113
Congrats to Grigor. I hope El Dude does not start a separate thread projecting Grigor to be the next best start.

Oh, c'mon, GSM, you don't need to go that far. He obviously would not do it...

...as he already did it after AO2017!:D

But since I am on that band wagon for a long time, I can't complain...
 

The Strokes

Futures Player
Joined
Aug 12, 2017
Messages
195
Reactions
67
Points
28
I have nipped into those sites over the years and, no thanks! I'll take your word for it. For me, I just say give the guy a chance. On a similar note, I've been harsh on Dimitrov, but it's a lot about getting burned. As I said yesterday, I'm perfectly happy to see him do well, but I've lost the je ne sais qua that it takes to be in his camp.

This site seems less brutal than the others. War zones! I'm a casualty of the war zones in online tennis posting, and now I have PTSD. But I am profoundly addicted and will persist.

So Dimitrov is a past flame eh? I had a bunch like that, where you just lose the beleif and can't be bothered any more. Tsonga. And alot of my favourite female players are perennial disappointments.
 

The Strokes

Futures Player
Joined
Aug 12, 2017
Messages
195
Reactions
67
Points
28
Thanks for the kindness, Strokes... unfortunately I am not exactly a fan of Brazilian music... something here and there for sure, but in general I am not the best person to talk too on the subject... Guga is from my hometown, the guy is very easy going and never let the success get to his head.

Verdasco is surely is stubborn. He never gives up of closing his eyes and ripping the ball in every single opportunity -- but I am not complaining, it is quite fun to watch.

Oh, Federer fan here -- but I try to be as less partisan as I can. About Murray, I use to torture people here with my favorite punchline, peak Wawrinka > peak Murray. Mrzz is just a random assembly of consonants from my name and surname.

Guga has to one of the most lovable tennis players of all time. Just radiates.

I agree re Waw at his best better than Murray at his best--they are different creatures for sure--Murray just posts very consistent results (up until now) Waw can be the Stanimal--but I'm starting to wonder, that was really only against Djok. Yet when no=-one else could beat Djok in a slam.

Tennis is mysterious!
You're a very nice fed fan and I like how you help me steer clear of the Fedal fights. I can lapse into it very easily. Of course much easier to avoid when neither is playing. For awhile it seemed like the whole year would be about Fed and Rafa--then suddenly it didn't.

And when that Verdasco FH is on, it's one of the best. I have room in my stable for all kinds of players. Borderline headcases welcome!
 

Front242

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
23,008
Reactions
3,952
Points
113
This thread is in a two-pronged conversation, so I'll address the other: I disagree with you that Roger is the best to date at reinventing himself. Rafa has actually done the better job of adapting his game as he went along. Roger waited 13 years into his rivalry with Nadal to make an effective change. Nadal made changes to combat Djokovic, for example. (He has a very good record against him in Majors, including post-2011.) He's considered to have a high tennis IQ, and is great at adapting to a player within a match. Roger stubbornly hung onto the notion that his talent (and perhaps aura) would get him through some years beyond when that was proven not to be the case with Nadal. He even went coachless for a long period. He's made some changes in recent years, but Rafa has been a tinkerer of his game all along. (PS: I believe Kyrgios wins more points with his tweener, though not, so far, such important ones.)

While it's obvious Roger was stubborn to wait years to adjust his strategy versus Nadal, my point was not about re-inventing his game against one player. He changed his game against the field to allow him to still compete at an elite level. His change to first strike tennis and shorter points was something he brought in to allow him compete with guys half his age and to conserve energy for the biggest matches. For years now he's been winning matches much faster than any of the big 4 or 5 on average as a result. Often in slam matches he's off the court in 1.5 hours or less while the rest are out there running around like a bunch of numpties against nobodies for 3+ hours.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ftan

Obsi

Masters Champion
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
556
Reactions
0
Points
0
I have to agree. Nick was so gracious, I'm willing to let the whole Wawrinka controversy go now. Fair play!

Kyrgious was gracious but still he is a jerk (you too). It's perfectly possible to be a jerk who is gracious in defeat. For example, Ilie Năstase

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

mrzz

Hater
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,330
Reactions
3,247
Points
113
It's perfectly possible to be a jerk who is gracious in defeat.

That's because people -- and pardon me for the clichè -- are quite complex little things. To be gracious, not only in defeat, it is quite a virtue, be one a jerk or not.
 

isabelle

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
4,673
Reactions
634
Points
113
congrats to Grigor even if I rooted for Nick...both of them played a great tourney