Changes for Federer?

brokenshoelace

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the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
Roger needs to upgrade to a slightly bigger and lighter racket that will allow him to level the playing field. Todays game is so predicated on generating heavy spin with racket head speed.

Roger's racquet head acceleration is second to none though, and he produces more spin than most. Among the top 4, he's right after Rafa in that regard.
Novak generates far more racket head acceleration than anyone on the tour including Fed . Trust me , I may not gain any support but that is standard on this board but I am quite sure about this

I don't mean to sound like a prick but this isn't much of an argument, especially given the near impossibility of actually measuring such a thing on average. I "trust you," but I just don't trust that one can make such claims with little backing, and say they're "sure" about this. Novak may well have the fastest racquet head acceleration but there's no way to know for sure.


the AntiPusher said:
ricardo said:
the AntiPusher said:
Novak generates far more racket head acceleration than anyone on the tour including Fed . Trust me , I may not gain any support but that is standard on this board but I am quite sure about this

Really? how do you support your claim? i think Rafa would easily top them all....

What the Hell is this!! I am not going to start who's racket head acceleration is the best debate:snigger

It's actually a very valid question Ricardo asked. How do you support this? And yeah, given the preposterous amount of spin Nadal generates, he's a pretty good candidate to have the fastest racquet head acceleration.



BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.



The article literally doesn't mention a single word about racquet head acceleration. Moreover, overpowering opponents and dictating play are factors that can't simply be explained with racquet head speed. Again, I have no idea how you've managed to relate these things and conclude that Djokovic has faster racquet head acceleration.
 

Ricardo

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the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
Roger needs to upgrade to a slightly bigger and lighter racket that will allow him to level the playing field. Todays game is so predicated on generating heavy spin with racket head speed.

Roger's racquet head acceleration is second to none though, and he produces more spin than most. Among the top 4, he's right after Rafa in that regard.
Novak generates far more racket head acceleration than anyone on the tour including Fed . Trust me , I may not gain any support but that is standard on this board but I am quite sure about this

I don't mean to sound like a prick but this isn't much of an argument, especially given the near impossibility of actually measuring such a thing on average. I "trust you," but I just don't trust that one can make such claims with little backing, and say they're "sure" about this. Novak may well have the fastest racquet head acceleration but there's no way to know for sure.


the AntiPusher said:
ricardo said:
the AntiPusher said:
Novak generates far more racket head acceleration than anyone on the tour including Fed . Trust me , I may not gain any support but that is standard on this board but I am quite sure about this

Really? how do you support your claim? i think Rafa would easily top them all....

What the Hell is this!! I am not going to start who's racket head acceleration is the best debate:snigger

It's actually a very valid question Ricardo asked. How do you support this? And yeah, given the preposterous amount of spin Nadal generates, he's a pretty good candidate to have the fastest racquet head acceleration.



BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.



That's poor response, poor example and simply bad choice of article which neither supports your claim or proves anything really. If all you base on your claim is 'trust me' or that pretty simplistic/technically lacking explanation then it's not really trustworthy.

Besides, Novak doesn't over-power players 'typically'. He outplays them, with combination of power, angle, defense and many things. He doesn't 'overpower' them nearly as much as guys like Delpo, Berdych, Gonzales, Tsonga etc who all hit bigger than Novak. Also just saying Fed dropping a level/Novak's has risen is no evidence for your claim either, i don't know how you make judgement of things but this is a bad attempt overall.
 

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http://www.tennishelpdesk.com/TennisVideos/Videos/TabId/61/VideoId/227/Nadals-Racket-Head-Speed.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLmCqGIotM

case closed!
 

Murat Baslamisli

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This is just a personal opinion, but I find it really hard to understand how a double handed backhand can ever generate as much RHS as a single handed one, with the limited backswing and the limited follow-through. Like I said, it might, but it seems physically impossible to me.
 

the AntiPusher

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ricardo said:
the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Roger's racquet head acceleration is second to none though, and he produces more spin than most. Among the top 4, he's right after Rafa in that regard.
Novak generates far more racket head acceleration than anyone on the tour including Fed . Trust me , I may not gain any support but that is standard on this board but I am quite sure about this

I don't mean to sound like a prick but this isn't much of an argument, especially given the near impossibility of actually measuring such a thing on average. I "trust you," but I just don't trust that one can make such claims with little backing, and say they're "sure" about this. Novak may well have the fastest racquet head acceleration but there's no way to know for sure.


the AntiPusher said:
ricardo said:
Really? how do you support your claim? i think Rafa would easily top them all....

What the Hell is this!! I am not going to start who's racket head acceleration is the best debate:snigger

It's actually a very valid question Ricardo asked. How do you support this? And yeah, given the preposterous amount of spin Nadal generates, he's a pretty good candidate to have the fastest racquet head acceleration.



BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.



That's poor response, poor example and simply bad choice of article which neither supports your claim or proves anything really. If all you base on your claim is 'trust me' or that pretty simplistic/technically lacking explanation then it's not really trustworthy.

Besides, Novak doesn't over-power players 'typically'. He outplays them, with combination of power, angle, defense and many things. He doesn't 'overpower' them nearly as much as guys like Delpo, Berdych, Gonzales, Tsonga etc who all hit bigger than Novak. Also just saying Fed dropping a level/Novak's has risen is no evidence for your claim either, i don't know how you make judgement of things but this is a bad attempt overall.



Look, you ask for an explanation.. I showed you an article now you want to highjack this thread with your opinion.. Like I said before, What the Hell is this.. Let's move on and stick to what the thread was about, Changes for Fed..
Sorry Darth Fed.. this typically happens.. BS takes bits and pieces from a poster thread and another poster bites and take things into a whole different direction.

ricardo: Go create your on thread and begin the debate.


the AntiPusher said:
ricardo said:
the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
Novak generates far more racket head acceleration than anyone on the tour including Fed . Trust me , I may not gain any support but that is standard on this board but I am quite sure about this

I don't mean to sound like a prick but this isn't much of an argument, especially given the near impossibility of actually measuring such a thing on average. I "trust you," but I just don't trust that one can make such claims with little backing, and say they're "sure" about this. Novak may well have the fastest racquet head acceleration but there's no way to know for sure.


the AntiPusher said:
What the Hell is this!! I am not going to start who's racket head acceleration is the best debate:snigger

It's actually a very valid question Ricardo asked. How do you support this? And yeah, given the preposterous amount of spin Nadal generates, he's a pretty good candidate to have the fastest racquet head acceleration.



BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.



That's poor response, poor example and simply bad choice of article which neither supports your claim or proves anything really. If all you base on your claim is 'trust me' or that pretty simplistic/technically lacking explanation then it's not really trustworthy.

Besides, Novak doesn't over-power players 'typically'. He outplays them, with combination of power, angle, defense and many things. He doesn't 'overpower' them nearly as much as guys like Delpo, Berdych, Gonzales, Tsonga etc who all hit bigger than Novak. Also just saying Fed dropping a level/Novak's has risen is no evidence for your claim either, i don't know how you make judgement of things but this is a bad attempt overall.



Look, you ask for an explanation.. I showed you an article now you want to highjack this thread with your opinion..
Over power, out plays, come on really. we need a play on words

Like I said before, What the Hell is this.. Let's move on and stick to what the thread was about, Changes for Fed..
Sorry Darth Fed.. this typically happens.. BS takes bits and pieces from a poster posts and another poster bites and take things into a whole different direction.



ricardo: Go create your on thread and begin the debate.

 

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1972Murat said:
This is just a personal opinion, but I find it really hard to understand how a double handed backhand can ever generate as much RHS as a single handed one, with the limited backswing and the limited follow-through. Like I said, it might, but it seems physically impossible to me.

I read where someone wrote one time that a single hand backhand allows for greater torque which leads to more power or something. I know this doesn't really help because I'm not explaining it fully, but there is some physics behind it so you might be able to find the answer somewhere.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.

The article literally doesn't mention a single word about racquet head acceleration. Moreover, overpowering opponents and dictating play are factors that can't simply be explained with racquet head speed. Again, I have no idea how you've managed to relate these things and conclude that Djokovic has faster racquet head acceleration.

most importantly, i'd like to not this one slip by, for future reference: this is not so much an analytical article, but mainly a PR/ad statement explaining why their product should be helpful for tennis players. you can find similar stuff explaining why strength training, balance bracelets or two-handed racquets would improve the pro's chances.
 

brokenshoelace

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johnsteinbeck said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.

The article literally doesn't mention a single word about racquet head acceleration. Moreover, overpowering opponents and dictating play are factors that can't simply be explained with racquet head speed. Again, I have no idea how you've managed to relate these things and conclude that Djokovic has faster racquet head acceleration.

most importantly, i'd like to not this one slip by, for future reference: this is not so much an analytical article, but mainly a PR/ad statement explaining why their product should be helpful for tennis players. you can find similar stuff explaining why strength training, balance bracelets or two-handed racquets would improve the pro's chances.

Exactly. Not to mention, the substance of the article is highly flawed, never mind that it actually refers to aspects of Novak and Roger's games by saying "this sad state of affairs"!
 

the AntiPusher

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Broken_Shoelace said:
johnsteinbeck said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.

The article literally doesn't mention a single word about racquet head acceleration. Moreover, overpowering opponents and dictating play are factors that can't simply be explained with racquet head speed. Again, I have no idea how you've managed to relate these things and conclude that Djokovic has faster racquet head acceleration.

most importantly, i'd like to not this one slip by, for future reference: this is not so much an analytical article, but mainly a PR/ad statement explaining why their product should be helpful for tennis players. you can find similar stuff explaining why strength training, balance bracelets or two-handed racquets would improve the pro's chances.

Exactly. Not to mention, the substance of the article is highly flawed, never mind that it actually refers to aspects of Novak and Roger's games by saying "this sad state of affairs"!

u said that it couldn't be measured, you said that.. whomever wrote the article address that issue although it may not have been as analytical as may be desired.. that why I put it there.. again you took bits from my post and took this thread another direction

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Novak has tremendous rack head acceleration, to deny that doesn't make sense or to start a debate that detours from the original thread doesn't either.
 

Johnsteinbeck

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^ but they don't 'measure' it in the article, they're not even coming close! it's just a lot of brouhaha about angles, based on almost randomly selected, low resolution pics.

however, huntingyou offered two good clips that actually do give an idea of how to measure racquet head speed (not to be confused with acceleration, of course; also, it has to be noted Roger's clip is an abstraction and Rafa's seems to be distorted a bit by having a low fps count - high speed cams would work wonders here). the relevant moment of course is quite short - the time of contact between strings and ball. so the racquet head speed for that moment would have to be measured - and with the right equipment and setting, yes it can be.

however, go back and read what BS said - you misquote him in saying that rh speed can't be measured at all - he's saying that it's a "near impossibility" to measure it "on average". now that makes a whole lot of difference, and i reckon it's true because each measurement would require a whole lot of calibration, perfect lighting, the high speed cams, some serious calculating; also, there's so many different shots and situations (positioning, movement, shot choice etc), all of which affect the accelaration and speed, that there's no real way to compare these player v player.

so i think in the end, as you said - you're free to disagree with what had been said regarding Roger's or Rafa's speed; and you might also notice that at no point did anyone deny that Novak has tremendous rh acceleration, just that some people couldn't quite "trust" you on his numbers being superior to Rafa and Roger's.
 

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Shouldn't he change of fitness program ??
He has a belly, French commentators mentionned it several times during RG and his fitness level seems poor that's probably why his footwork is so lazy
Some gym exercices could be helpful even if he'll never be as fit as Ferrer
 

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the AntiPusher said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
johnsteinbeck said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
the AntiPusher said:
BS you said it couldn t be done.. That just not true..This is from 5 years ago..

http://www.somaxsports.com/photo.php?analysis=federer-djokovic

Surely, Fed has drop a level whereas Novak's level has risen. If you noticed typically in Novak's matches he just over powers his opponents during the course of his rally groundstrokes that is usually how he is able to dictate play. He does it with precision accuracy which separates him from most of the top pros.

The article literally doesn't mention a single word about racquet head acceleration. Moreover, overpowering opponents and dictating play are factors that can't simply be explained with racquet head speed. Again, I have no idea how you've managed to relate these things and conclude that Djokovic has faster racquet head acceleration.

most importantly, i'd like to not this one slip by, for future reference: this is not so much an analytical article, but mainly a PR/ad statement explaining why their product should be helpful for tennis players. you can find similar stuff explaining why strength training, balance bracelets or two-handed racquets would improve the pro's chances.

Exactly. Not to mention, the substance of the article is highly flawed, never mind that it actually refers to aspects of Novak and Roger's games by saying "this sad state of affairs"!

u said that it couldn't be measured, you said that.. whomever wrote the article address that issue although it may not have been as analytical as may be desired.. that why I put it there.. again you took bits from my post and took this thread another direction

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Novak has tremendous rack head acceleration, to deny that doesn't make sense or to start a debate that detours from the original thread doesn't either.

At this point I'm honestly questioning if you even read the article. Please show me the part where they measured Novak and Roger's racquet head speed and deduced that Novak's is faster.

And where did I deny that Novak has tremendous racquet head acceleration?

PS: I didn't say it can't be measured. I say "there's no way to know for sure," because there are so many factors to take into consideration, including average racquet head speed, since players don't hit every shot with the same ferocity.


johnsteinbeck said:
however, go back and read what BS said - you misquote him in saying that rh speed can't be measured at all - he's saying that it's a "near impossibility" to measure it "on average".

I replied above before reading this. You captured my thoughts perfectly.
 

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I hope Roger works on his BH and serve. Taking the BH early worked for him at points last year like Indian Wells and he was attacking much more with it, not allowing himself to be pinned in the corner. It was a weapon there as opposed to a simple rally shot. His serve has dropped off a bit too and losing serve when he shouldn't be is hurting him like against Nishikori. If he drops routine service games against big hitters/power servers at Wimbledon he's toast as his ROS is poor these days.

Check out these two backhands. First one in particular is ridiculously good. ROS here was so much better than it is now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s_e4lU9HGI
 

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Racquet head velocity is a vector, and it's important to separate it into tangential and normal components. guys who hit with a lot of topspin tend to be undervalued bc you don't see 100mph flat balls skidding of their racquets. Also trajectory is important to. Consider that you actually need to take some pace off a flat trajectory if you want the ball to land in. Eg I'm sure we're all used to line driving balls into the back fence. So the absolute magnitude of a shot is going to take into account both and it will be some combination that maximizes the absolute magnitude.

Further most pros can generate much more rh speed if they choose, so really we are talking about some average value. You don't have to hit the ball very hard to generate a winner. Much more important is the angle and placement.

As far as who hits the hardest on the ATP tour. Well Nadal probably does on average considering that he has too. His balls are very loopy and he needs to generate spin to stay in bound and to generate pressure on the adversary. A single ball without that spin would be instantly killed by the opponent.

As for who has the highest potential rh speed? It's irrelevant but probably one of the giants on tour with their long lever arms. Maybe someone like Monfils with the long arms and hip rotation...
 

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Front242 said:
I hope Roger works on his BH and serve. Taking the BH early worked for him at points last year like Indian Wells and he was attacking much more with it, not allowing himself to be pinned in the corner. It was a weapon there as opposed to a simple rally shot. His serve has dropped off a bit too and losing serve when he shouldn't be is hurting him like against Nishikori. If he drops routine service games against big hitters/power servers at Wimbledon he's toast as his ROS is poor these days.

that's what i keep saying - first and foremost, the serve has to be top-notch. it's the foundation of his game, and without that, he doesn't stand a chance.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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Didi said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Federer is lucky all the courts are slower than in olden days..

gives him a chance to move his Zimmerframe into position before slapping the ball back.

Not sure if you are serious here but had they not slowed down Wimbledon, AO and the USO, in my opinion Roger would very likely be sitting on 20+ slams and still be #1 right now. I think he would prefer it to be like in the 90s instead of having to torture himself in brutal baseline wars on pretty mich every surface he enters these days with a ridiculous mileage on his body. I can only imagine how great his first strike tennis would have looked like on much faster courts, even today. Take a look at the Wimbledon semis and finals from 2003. A masterpiece of attacking talent.

he would have fewer majors if fast hard and grass courts were still around..he'd wouldn't reach as many balls as they zoomed off the surface.
 

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Didi said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Federer is lucky all the courts are slower than in olden days..

gives him a chance to move his Zimmerframe into position before slapping the ball back.

Not sure if you are serious here but had they not slowed down Wimbledon, AO and the USO, in my opinion Roger would very likely be sitting on 20+ slams and still be #1 right now. I think he would prefer it to be like in the 90s instead of having to torture himself in brutal baseline wars on pretty mich every surface he enters these days with a ridiculous mileage on his body. I can only imagine how great his first strike tennis would have looked like on much faster courts, even today. Take a look at the Wimbledon semis and finals from 2003. A masterpiece of attacking talent.

he would have fewer majors if fast hard and grass courts were still around..he'd wouldn't reach as many balls as they zoomed off the surface.

Maybe now that he's almost 32 that's true but he'd have won many more that escaped him earlier if courts were faster imo. I reckon a lot of the shanks we're seeing now are just because his reaction speed has dropped ever so slightly. Once in a while of course everything clicks like Cincy 2012 and he's just on fire but it's few and far between these days.
 

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JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Didi said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Federer is lucky all the courts are slower than in olden days..

gives him a chance to move his Zimmerframe into position before slapping the ball back.

Not sure if you are serious here but had they not slowed down Wimbledon, AO and the USO, in my opinion Roger would very likely be sitting on 20+ slams and still be #1 right now. I think he would prefer it to be like in the 90s instead of having to torture himself in brutal baseline wars on pretty mich every surface he enters these days with a ridiculous mileage on his body. I can only imagine how great his first strike tennis would have looked like on much faster courts, even today. Take a look at the Wimbledon semis and finals from 2003. A masterpiece of attacking talent.

he would have fewer majors if fast hard and grass courts were still around..he'd wouldn't reach as many balls as they zoomed off the surface.

you don't know what you are talking about... what you said applies to defensive players.
 

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Can anyone please provide any evidence as to the alleged slowing down of the Australian Open? It's one of those narratives someone once threw around because it's believable enough, and everyone else just subscribed to it. And yes, I realize they changed the surface in 2008. The AO is probably the slam I pay most attention to (ie try to watch every single match), and it never struck me as a particularly slow surface. It's a medium paced hard courts, the way it's meant to be.
 

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All I know is personally I enjoyed the old Rebound Ace surface there more. Will search for some videos later but it was definitely faster and more enjoyable to view imo.


Definitely looks faster to me back here.

One of the best matches of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njFVR-SPNts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kKaL0oD260

Man, I miss Gonzo on tour. What a tournament he played in 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBOeQayp26A