Can Roger win another Slam?

El Dude

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It is looking less likely. After 2013, it seemed like he couldn't. After 2014 it seemed possible, until Novak regained his best form and Roger seemingly can't compete against him at Slams (0-3 in their last three Slam meetings, hasn't beaten Novak at a Slam since 2012). As a Roger fan it is hard not to be disappointed, especially when it seems Roger's level drops whenever he faces Novak. I know, I know - it is largely due to the fact that Novak just out-plays him. Watching Roger play Wawrinka in the SF I saw how much his game disrupted Stan's, that a great player is able to make others play worse. Rafa was particularly able to do this. But anyone who saw Roger in earlier rounds saw a different player in the finals. For whatever reason, Roger looks like a different player against Novak - less confident, more prone to errors. I think what happens is that because it is so hard to hit a winner against Novak, Roger gets slightly flustered and starts making more errors. If he were able to hold his calm despite Novak's heroic defenses, I honestly think that Roger could defeat him. But that psychological edge is huge.

Actually, it is somewhat reminiscent of his play against Rafa. I think this is largely about confidence; Roger's weakness as a player seems to be that while he's as dominant as anyone in the history of the game against lesser players, he can't quite hold his own against his peers. Its like he's nigh invulnerable when he's ahead, but when he's challenged he folds. I wonder if this has something to do with him being so dominant in his prime, that he didn't really learn how to deal with adversity in the same way that, say, Rafa did coming up and being second fiddle, or Novak even more so; Novak was the third best for four years and no one ever really thought he could be Roger's or Rafa's equal, and now he's been better than them for five years.

The point being, that while on one hand Roger was gifted in 2004-07 with a span of unparalleled dominance, it actually hurt him in his later years because he didn't learn how to perform when being challenged in the way that Rafa and Novak have challenged him. So when those highest pressure moments come in the Slams, he ends up playing below his best level whereas Rafa and Novak had to play their best levels to get to where they are. They had to struggle from being the 2nd or 3rd best to get to the top.

Anyhow, back to the topic, for some reason the numbers "18-12" stand out in my mind - that this is how Roger will finish his career in Slam finals. That means two more runner's up, and one more win. I guess I hold out hope that he has one more title in him, despite his advanced age. Despite the last two disappointments, he remains the second best player on tour. But unfortunately he probably needs help. He needs an Andy Murray or a Stan Wawrinka to take out Novak in the semis. Of course for that to be the case, Roger would need to remain #2 across the aisle from Novak - which may be hard to do for that much longer. As it stands now he's #3 in the race to London rankings.

So what do you think? Can Roger do it?
 

jhar26

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I hope that I'm wrong, but I don't think he can. I don't think that it's realistic to expect that at his age he could even play better than he did at Wimbledon and the USO. It was awesome, but still not good enough to get past this one guy who always seems to be there. It's not entirely impossible that he would win one more, but there are too many if's and but's that have to go Roger's way for me to say, "sure, he'll win another one."
 

DarthFed

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Of course he can. But I wouldn't bet on it. Both of these finals were ugly performances in some way and the scoreline shows it.
 

nehmeth

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If they had played in the final on a warm sunny afternoon, without a three hour delay to think about things... this one might well have been his.

He's not playing so much that he's putting wear and tear on his body... he has the end of this year and some time off to hone his game. The draw will have to work in his favor and probably not have Novak waiting in the final.

But yes, of course he can win another one.
 

jhar26

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DarthFed said:
Of course he can. But I wouldn't bet on it. Both of these finals were ugly performances in some way and the scoreline shows it.
I think he was pretty close actually, especially yesterday. His break point conversion was below par though, and that made the difference.
 

DarthFed

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He was close to being close yesterday. He played a lot better than that mess of a Wimbledon final. That was bad start to finish. Roger played well for large portions of the match yesterday, but was awful in the biggest moments. 34 or 44 for him to not even get to 5 at Wimby or USO is underperforming. Lopez gave Nole a tougher time here and Anderson gave him a tougher match at Wimbledon.
 

jhar26

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DarthFed said:
He was close to being close yesterday. He played a lot better than that mess of a Wimbledon final. That was bad start to finish. Roger played well for large portions of the match yesterday, but was awful in the biggest moments. 34 or 44 for him to not even get to 5 at Wimby or USO is underperforming. Lopez gave Nole a tougher time here and Anderson gave him a tougher match at Wimbledon.
A match doesn't necessarily have to be five sets to be close. 7-6/7-6/7-6 is also close. About as close as it gets even. But anyway, early in the third set when he was ultra-aggressive on the return and seemed to have the momentum in his favor I thought "He's got him. He's really going to do it this time!" Didn't last long though. Still, I don't think he played badly at all. But as you say, he was pretty poor on most of the key points. It's been a problem for Roger in recent years. He's as good as ever when it comes to playing himself into a position where he gets breakpoint opportunities. But once he has them he can't convert them, or not often enough. He should just tell himself "It's not 0-40, it's 15-30." Perhaps that would work better for him. :)
 

lob

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Excellent summary El Dude.

It is true that the run of total dominance in 2004-07 hurt him later in his career.

However, this has been a feature of his personality even before then. The losses to Safin AO 05, Nalbandian WTF 05, of course Rafa in FO 06/07, Wimbledon 08 come to mind. All those were during his run of dominance. [Although he had a bad 2008 until then, he was playing very well walking into the Wimbledon 08 final.] In all those matches, Roger played well enough to make it close, even very close but did not win. Of course there are numerous examples after 2008.

He almost predictably gets tight in big, high pressure, difficult matches where a confident opponent refuses to go away. His game goes AWOL because he is tight. First serve %, break point conversion rate, unforced errors all go south because he is tight. The narrow margin of the loss in those matches is misleading. He makes it close After he is in very deep trouble. He almost has nothing to lose by then and so he loosens up. How many times has he won the 4th set of the final only to lose the 5th. Nothing to lose in set 4. Tight again set in 5.

There are exceptions such as Wimbledon 2009 and FO SF 2009. Even there one was a Roddick who had already choked the second set tiebreak away and the other was a Del Potro who had never won a single set against Fed before that SF.
 

Front242

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^ Either that or have hypnosis before he faces Novak in a slam so when he looks over the net the guy on the other side is some donkey ranked 500 :D
 

jhar26

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Front242 said:
^ Either that or have hypnosis before he faces Novak in a slam so when he looks over the net the guy on the other side is some donkey ranked 500 :D
:clap

Yes, you (and others) make a good point. But one that while true is pretty hard to understand. Against Nadal I can understand it. Rafa is really the match-up from hell for Roger. But the rivalry with Djokovic is even. He can play ball with Novak - play his game and be effective with it. Plus he's the underdog at this point which should be a more comfortable position to be in than when everyone expects you to win.
 

Front242

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Yup, there's no explaining it really. He throws away games out of nowhere having been up 40-0 or 40-15. And not due to Novak's returns or winners a lot of the time. There were games yesterday he just hit 3 crap inside out forehands in a row wide :nono
 

lob

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^ The only explanation to me is that when a player gets inside his head his concentration suffers. He simply doesn't relish playing under pressure and coming out on top. He is #2 because he is that good not because he is deeply hungry to be #2. I don't think he watches videos and analyzes his recent major final losses. My guess is that he never bothered to see the video of his 2014 and 2015 Wimbledon finals. That would be shocking for any other #2. I was watching him train with Stefan in Miami last year. What stood out most was the very light, casual nature of the session. The flip side of his unbelievable talent and longevity is a correspondingly lower intensity of hunger to compete.
 

Kirijax

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I'll have to say that I will be surprised if Federer ends his career with 17 Slams. He is just one Djokovic upset away from lifting the trophy. Not impossible. Maybe he'll get his "Pennetta Surprise". The Internet will literally blow up.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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oh yes he can.

he has to keep straight-setting his way to the qf to save energy, then look to take care of any potential qf/sf and hope he does not get bogged down in a long 5 setter.

which is what he did at this years Wimbledon/usopen, off top of my head he only had a 4 set match at Wimbledon/usopen before finals, all his matches were short..

just don't go all passive and silly in the head on those breakpoints or its not going to happen.
 

atttomole

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I disagree a little bit with this analysis. With Nadal we know his problems from the beginning. However, with Novak it is a bit different because he used to beat Novak at slams. May be the question should be why Novak is now beating him more consistently at slams? I do understand the disappointment for the loss, but I feel it is a bit harsh on Roger to say that he gets tight when an opponent does not go away. I am also disappointed as a Fed fan, but I also suspect that his problem is that he has reached so many slam finals and he is losing more now. Who knows he could end up 17-17 in slam finals, and that could be used against him.
 

atttomole

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I also think he can win one or two more. Roger could reach 5 more slam finals before he retires, and he could win some of them.
 

jhar26

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I think that some of you forget that he's 34 years old. If he was 31 I would say, "yes, he can." But he's 34. By the time Wimbledon and the USO come around again he'll be 35. I know that Roger is special, but someone winning a major past the age of 30 is exceptional. Someone winning a major at 35 (or older) simply doesn't happen.