BNP Paribas Open, Indian Wells, CA, 2026 - ATP Masters 1000

Fiero425

The GOAT
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
12,136
Reactions
2,817
Points
113
Location
Chicago, IL
Website
fiero4251.blogspot.com
I don't remember any "Golden Masters." Boxed set. Golden Career Slam, yes, meaning add the Olympic Gold, which Novak, bless his heart, FINALLY got.

The Career "Golden Masters" was coined after Novak won Cincy for the 1st time in 2018 completing the Box Set of Masters-1000 events! The true "Box Set" (winnng all Major sing., dubs, & mx.d) has only been accomplished by Martina Navr. in the Pro Era! The Golden CS (w/ OGM) done by Agassi, Nadal, & Nole! Then the Super Slam (w/ YEC) done by Agassi & Nole! :astonished-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:
 
Last edited:

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
53,414
Reactions
33,884
Points
113
I simply don't believe that's true First of all, only Roger, Novak and now Sinner have done it. It's not a "named goal" like, say, a calendar year Grand Slam, or even a Channel Slam. Which is not to say it's not an admirable achievement, but let's not pretend that the concept wasn't just invented. Even when Novak won all of the 9 MS 1000s, they invented the term "boxed set" for it. Or, they borrowed it from the real "boxed set," which is winning a title in each of singles, doubles and mixed at each of the 4 Majors. That one you can google. HC Boxed Set yields nothing. There's no Clay Boxed Set or Grass Boxed Set. It's a way for tennis commentators to speak of an accomplishment, but it's not what anyone would call a separate goal to play for.

I'm not trying to be pissy about it, but @rafanoy1992 posted to chastise us for not exclaiming over it. I'm just saying, no one knew we were supposed to.
Really? well it was all over the media? if Sinner won IW he would have been the youngest player at 24 to achieve all the major HC titles
BTW Rafanoy didnt chastise, he was just stating why other posters didnt acknowledge what Sinner achieved
No wonder we have lost good posters, Rafanoy happens to be one of them BTW
According to you what he achieved dosent mean much in your eyes and others here on this post, fair enough!
I will stick to the womens side of things on TF,
 
Last edited:

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
45,417
Reactions
16,109
Points
113
Really? well it was all over the media? if Sinner won IW he would have been the youngest player at 24 to achieve all the major HC titles
BTW Rafanoy didnt chastise, he was just stating why other posters didnt acknowledge what Sinner achieved
No wonder we have lost good posters, Rafanoy happens to be one of them BTW
According to you what he achieved dosent mean much in your eyes and others here on this post, fair enough!
I will stick to the womens side of things on TF,
Oh, don't be like that. Fiero and Murat got what I was talking about. I absolutely said it was a great achievement. It's just that I never heard of this particular "named grouping" of events. Murat calls it "stat porn." Like Fiero's "Super Slam" above. Never heard of it. But sure, say what Sinner did. I mean, I had to guess when you said it. HE WON INDIAN WELLS, GIVING HIM, AT 24, AT LEAST ONE OF ALL OF THE BIGGEST HARD COURT TITLES: AO AND USOPEN, YEC AND HC MS 1000s. There. It's a mouthful, but it's quite an accomplishment. Plus, you know I just like to stir things up, and my complaint was about the name.
 
Last edited:

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
18,274
Reactions
8,250
Points
113
I simply don't believe that's true First of all, only Roger, Novak and now Sinner have done it. It's not a "named goal" like, say, a calendar year Grand Slam, or even a Channel Slam. Which is not to say it's not an admirable achievement, but let's not pretend that the concept wasn't just invented.
Exactly. It’s interesting, that’s all. There’s been a trend to over-inflate the importance of MS titles when really they’re sort of filler. Creating trends that indicate nothing much, really. The only titles that really indicate greatness are the GS…
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
18,274
Reactions
8,250
Points
113
Congrats to Sinner and everyone else on their big accomplishments . Having said that, I am getting tired of stat porn. Tennis is not as bad as basketball but it is catching up. Match wins, tournament wins, head to heads, slam counts and that is good enough for me. This started with (as far as I can remember) Roger's slam semi streak years back. As a Roger fan, I could not have cared less. He lost many of those slams. It is getting much worse now. We are on our way to " First guy ever to have eaten 6 pancakes at I Hop for breakfast, taken a 3 hour nap and won his first 5 service games while only drinking Red Bull during breaks "....Like, Jeez.
“Stat porn” is perfect! :lulz1:

“Youngest ever player to be young!” :clap::clap:

“First player in history to win five points in a row with spitting.” :clap:

“Best self wedgie in tennis history!! (Rafa twenty years in a row!” :fearful-face:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: mrzz and Murat B.

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
45,417
Reactions
16,109
Points
113
Exactly. It’s interesting, that’s all. There’s been a trend to over-inflate the importance of MS titles when really they’re sort of filler. Creating trends that indicate nothing much, really. The only titles that really indicate greatness are the GS…
I think it goes a bit far to call the MS 1000s "filler." Though, they have diminished them with the larger field and the 2-week format. Used to be, there was nowhere to hide in a 1000...all top players, and no days off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
18,274
Reactions
8,250
Points
113
I think it goes a bit far to call the MS 1000s "filler." Though, they have diminished them with the larger field and the 2-week format. Used to be, there was nowhere to hide in a 1000...all top players, and no days off.
True but they’re filler relative to true greatness…
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
45,417
Reactions
16,109
Points
113
True but they’re filler relative to true greatness…
I still don't buy it. Otherwise, we're just watching practice sessions all year, biding time until the Majors. I think MS1000s are big prizes and to be admired. Now, we do know that it's the Majors that matter, in the end. (As in that dubious moniker that rather IS a thing: Best Player never to win a Major.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fiero425

Murat B.

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,563
Reactions
1,326
Points
113
Age
53
Location
Newmarket
I still don't buy it. Otherwise, we're just watching practice sessions all year, biding time until the Majors. I think MS1000s are big prizes and to be admired. Now, we do know that it's the Majors that matter, in the end. (As in that dubious moniker that rather IS a thing: Best Player never to win a Major.)
Let's call MS1000s soft porn...:lol6:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Kieran and Moxie

rafanoy1992

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
4,580
Reactions
3,225
Points
113
Congrats to Sinner and everyone else on their big accomplishments . Having said that, I am getting tired of stat porn. Tennis is not as bad as basketball but it is catching up. Match wins, tournament wins, head to heads, slam counts and that is good enough for me. This started with (as far as I can remember) Roger's slam semi streak years back. As a Roger fan, I could not have cared less. He lost many of those slams. It is getting much worse now. We are on our way to " First guy ever to have eaten 6 pancakes at I Hop for breakfast, taken a 3 hour nap and won his first 5 service games while only drinking Red Bull during breaks "....Like, Jeez.
To be fair Murat, stats are a great way to illustrate how great (or bad) a player does inside the tennis courts.

Obviously, there are some stats that are meaningless and there’s more than stats or box watching when watching tennis overall.

But stats are great tools to see if a player is doing well or bad.

Personally, I love Federer’s 23 consecutive slam SF streak. Yes, he might have lost in some of them or didn’t win the tournament, but it shows you how consistent he was at slams in his peak.

And my all time favorite Rafael Nadal stat: 14-0 at RG Finals and none of them went to a 5th set! That stat is mind boggling and it shows you on how dominant Nadal was at RG truly!
 

rafanoy1992

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
4,580
Reactions
3,225
Points
113
One last post before I leave again: the reason I am clamoring for Sinner’s HC set at age 24.5 so I can show appreciation of his great accomplishments.

Personally, I don’t have a problem if Alcaraz is the better player, more popular player by the media and probably the more accomplished player when it is all said and done. That’s how sports life is.

My thing is I don’t want Sinner to be under appreciated just because the other great player is doing really really well. In addition, I feel like when Sinner accomplish something great, he should not be “connected” to Alcaraz in a way.
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
18,274
Reactions
8,250
Points
113
I still don't buy it. Otherwise, we're just watching practice sessions all year, biding time until the Majors. I think MS1000s are big prizes and to be admired. Now, we do know that it's the Majors that matter, in the end. (As in that dubious moniker that rather IS a thing: Best Player never to win a Major.)
Yes but bear in mind, I used the word “relative.” Relative to the majors, MS titles are just tourneys on the journey. Every professional tournament has some prestige because it involves the greatest players in the world, but off the top of your head can you name the winners of every MS from a given year? Time was, they weren’t considered as being that important, until statisticians and players tried to big them up. Zverev can win a million MS titles but that would only emphasise how far from real greatness he is, if he keeps bellyflopping at the slams. “Best player never to win a slam,” indeed. He’s certainly a contender for that..
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
28,520
Reactions
7,061
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
Congrats to Sinner and everyone else on their big accomplishments . Having said that, I am getting tired of stat porn. Tennis is not as bad as basketball but it is catching up. Match wins, tournament wins, head to heads, slam counts and that is good enough for me. This started with (as far as I can remember) Roger's slam semi streak years back. As a Roger fan, I could not have cared less. He lost many of those slams. It is getting much worse now. We are on our way to " First guy ever to have eaten 6 pancakes at I Hop for breakfast, taken a 3 hour nap and won his first 5 service games while only drinking Red Bull during breaks "....Like, Jeez.
Don't you realise how impressive that is?
 

MargaretMcAleer

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
53,414
Reactions
33,884
Points
113
One last post before I leave again: the reason I am clamoring for Sinner’s HC set at age 24.5 so I can show appreciation of his great accomplishments.

Personally, I don’t have a problem if Alcaraz is the better player, more popular player by the media and probably the more accomplished player when it is all said and done. That’s how sports life is.

My thing is I don’t want Sinner to be under appreciated just because the other great player is doing really really well. In addition, I feel like when Sinner accomplish something great, he should not be “connected” to Alcaraz in a way.
Of course you can show your appreciation of Jannik's achievements, the media and tennis commentators were also highly impressed on what he achieved at age 24 being the youngest player to win all the major hard court tournaments.
As I posted to you the other day I am extremely proud of what he has achieved.
Dont leave it too long before you post again, you have always been a fair and highly intelligent poster at TF
Take Care!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

Fiero425

The GOAT
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
12,136
Reactions
2,817
Points
113
Location
Chicago, IL
Website
fiero4251.blogspot.com
To be fair Murat, stats are a great way to illustrate how great (or bad) a player does inside the tennis courts.

Obviously, there are some stats that are meaningless and there’s more than stats or box watching when watching tennis overall.

But stats are great tools to see if a player is doing well or bad.

Personally, I love Federer’s 23 consecutive slam SF streak. Yes, he might have lost in some of them or didn’t win the tournament, but it shows you how consistent he was at slams in his peak.

And my all time favorite Rafael Nadal stat: 14-0 at RG Finals and none of them went to a 5th set! That stat is mind boggling and it shows you on how dominant Nadal was at RG truly!

It also highlites how weak the era was after Sampras & Hewitt! As in past ascensions, the new GOAT usually had to deal w/ past greats! Roger had an aging Agassi as his only real rival! The only players that really made Roger work weren't established yet! As soon as they rolled in, the consistency continued except when he went against Nadovic w./ a sprinkling of Murray & Safin! Nadal & Djokovic streaks will always be more impressive b/c the Big 3 was established after several yrs. waiting for them to elevate their games! :astonished-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Murat B.

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,563
Reactions
1,326
Points
113
Age
53
Location
Newmarket
To be fair Murat, stats are a great way to illustrate how great (or bad) a player does inside the tennis courts.

Obviously, there are some stats that are meaningless and there’s more than stats or box watching when watching tennis overall.

But stats are great tools to see if a player is doing well or bad.

Personally, I love Federer’s 23 consecutive slam SF streak. Yes, he might have lost in some of them or didn’t win the tournament, but it shows you how consistent he was at slams in his peak.

And my all time favorite Rafael Nadal stat: 14-0 at RG Finals and none of them went to a 5th set! That stat is mind boggling and it shows you on how dominant Nadal was at RG truly!
I am OK with some stats. Just not the ridiculous ones. 14-0 is a great stat because it led to wins. Any stat about wins is good.

But...sometimes I get lost in the stat porn too. There is one stat I would like to know, maybe @El Dude can look into it. As it is established, even the best players ever like Roger and Rafa have only won around %54 or so of their total career points. But they won a shitload of matches, so many more than others. That means they won a lot of the important points, as opposed to the "meh" points . So , how do you measure the ratio of points that matter to the "filler" points and who is the top player at that ? Do you look at the points won after 30-30? Do you count every tie break point because essentially each TB point is a break point? How do you measure "clutch" ?

There is my stat porn of the day.
 

kskate2

Administrator
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
32,318
Reactions
11,232
Points
113
Location
Tampa Bay
I forgot to mention this last week when it happened, but that whole business w/ Meddy when Jack put his arms up is a byproduct from Iga. She did that to Goddess at the net last year after doing it several times before and they finally created a rule about it. The affected player actually can wait until the point is over and ask the umpire for a review. They basically have 2 chances to win the point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
18,274
Reactions
8,250
Points
113
It also highlites how weak the era was after Sampras & Hewitt! As in past ascensions, the new GOAT usually had to deal w/ past greats! Roger had an aging Agassi as his only real rival! The only players that really made Roger work weren't established yet! As soon as they rolled in, the consistency continued except when he went against Nadovic w./ a sprinkling of Murray & Safin! Nadal & Djokovic streaks will always be more impressive b/c the Big 3 was established after several yrs. waiting for them to elevate their games! :astonished-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:
Yes but remember the first 2 players of the Big 3 had slaughtered each other for 6 years before Novak located his nuts and joined in. They were battle weary, ageing and wounded during most of the 2010’s when Novak made hay. And they were essentially completely gone when Novak won his third career slam unopposed. He’s the beneficiary of incredible largesse. But yeah, you enjoy it better that that way. You believe it’s something other than what it is..
 
  • Like
Reactions: mrzz and Moxie

mrzz

Hater
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,818
Reactions
3,860
Points
113
As it is established, even the best players ever like Roger and Rafa have only won around %54 or so of their total career points.

This is really counter-intuitive. I would guess that the serve-receive asymmetry explains part of that (if players were allowed to serve 1 meter away from the net, all players would simply win 50% of the points, regardless of how good or bad they might be, apart from the cases where the player has a heart attack after the toss). Also, back to the historical greats, it would be interesting to see their "prime" stats, or at least the stats ignoring their early and final years. Even so I think it would be something like, say, 57% percent, which still seems pretty low.

This indicated that the distribution of "point winning rate" is heavily centered on 50%, which is something I would like to see (for non-math people, if you calculate the percentage of points won by all players, and just count how many won 50%, how many won 50,1%, so on and so forth...). In other words, tennis is utterly competitive. Which circles back to your original point: those guys that won so many matches (and so many important matches) might do something different in big points.

But I do think that there are different ways to get there, and the Fedal case is a great example. Federer, for me, creates margin by being "streaky", in the sense that in a few moments during a match he raises his level absurdly, than wins, say, 75% of the points, gets (and saves) the breaks, gets the lead and then sails from there. Nadal, on the other hand, is more about the pressure points (as is Djokovic). Well, that is my guess, anyway.
 

Murat B.

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
10,563
Reactions
1,326
Points
113
Age
53
Location
Newmarket
This is really counter-intuitive. I would guess that the serve-receive asymmetry explains part of that (if players were allowed to serve 1 meter away from the net, all players would simply win 50% of the points, regardless of how good or bad they might be, apart from the cases where the player has a heart attack after the toss). Also, back to the historical greats, it would be interesting to see their "prime" stats, or at least the stats ignoring their early and final years. Even so I think it would be something like, say, 57% percent, which still seems pretty low.

This indicated that the distribution of "point winning rate" is heavily centered on 50%, which is something I would like to see (for non-math people, if you calculate the percentage of points won by all players, and just count how many won 50%, how many won 50,1%, so on and so forth...). In other words, tennis is utterly competitive. Which circles back to your original point: those guys that won so many matches (and so many important matches) might do something different in big points.

But I do think that there are different ways to get there, and the Fedal case is a great example. Federer, for me, creates margin by being "streaky", in the sense that in a few moments during a match he raises his level absurdly, than wins, say, 75% of the points, gets (and saves) the breaks, gets the lead and then sails from there. Nadal, on the other hand, is more about the pressure points (as is Djokovic). Well, that is my guess, anyway.
Everything you said above is the reason I want to know more. I was totally surprised as well that the number was around %54. That's why my suggestion was points after 30-30 and TB points. I think those points differentiated the top guys from the rest but who knows. I am sure someone someday will tackle that stat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mrzz