Ban Reduction Galore

JesuslookslikeBorg

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,323
Reactions
1,074
Points
113
Denisovich said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Denisovich said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Denisovich said:
Zero tolerance after the second offense yes. And after a fair trial and proper evidence of the offense.

which we have had, so stop supporting drug cheats..its sad and immoral.

:mad: :nono

It's sad that you think that way.

sad..:speechless::speechless: you are sticking up for liars and cheats, i don't get your mentality at all. :nono

Ok, I'll try to explain it for you. What I am defending is not a person (I don't really care about Troicki and I think he should be banned for the period he was banned for), but the idea of a fair trial and the fact that while in some instances a sentence might seem too low, there might be good reasons for it related to the personal circumstances of the offender.

There is a difference there. I hope you are able to see the difference.

there wernt any personal circumstances..he has a needle phobia ?..aww diddums, he shouldn't have signed the testing consent forms that they have to do whenever?? start of season?

then he tries to trash someone who has been doing testing for over a decade..what a big man he is.

*good on you for agreeing Lance stays titleless.
 

masterclass

Masters Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
652
Reactions
246
Points
43
I just wanted to add a little more background to what I stated earlier about the "compelling justification" clause in the Anti-Doping 2.3 rule. This clause has been pointed to in other incidences in sport, and as cases have been argued over and decided, the effect of it's meaning has become more clear. I'll give some case examples that show this, if you don't mind the length of this...

In B v FEI, CAS 2007/A/1415 a CAS arbitration panel gave the example of an athlete discovering just prior to his test that their children have been very seriously injured in in accident as an example of compelling justification for refusing to submit to a sample collection.

But,

In CCES v Boyle SDRCC DT 07-0058 (31 May 2007), it was stated that even if an athlete was taken “suddenly, violently and horribly ill while training” there would not be compelling justification for not providing a sample collection. To be compelling, it was said, the refusal would have to be “unavoidable”. The arbitrator’s suggestion that not submitting to a sample collection has to be “unavoidable” suggests that only something close to death would do.

In Welsh Rugby Union Ltd v Nathan Jones, 9th June 2006 (NADP), Jones refused to submit to a sample collection following a match. The reason was that Jones, who was not a full time athlete, had to join his father to complete a building project and there was evidence of very severe financial consequences for the family business had he not left urgently to do so.

In these circumstances, but only by a majority, the Panel held that there was no compelling justification for the refusal to provide a sample. It also held that the Player could not establish a mitigation defense of no substantial fault and negligence and the 2 year ban applied. Following Boyle, the majority held that compelling justification required something “exceptional” and “unavoidable”.

In UK Anti-Doping v Marcel Six, 25th October 2012, an amateur cyclist was asked at a very late stage to participate in a race and he agreed to do so in order not to let down his team. Before the race began he began to receive “panicky” calls from his wife telling him that the children were not well. There was also evidence as to the wife’s fragile mental state and difficulty that she experienced coping with the children. However, he went on to race anyway. During the race, his wife left more messages on his phone. After the race, he was approached by the doping officer to provide a sample. As he checked his phone, he stated to the control officer that he felt he had to leave urgently and left, stating that he had to return to his wife and ill children.

Despite the fact that the National Anti-Doping Panel stated that it accepted that the athlete truly believed his family “to be in significant distress with the potential for harm to his the health of his wife and possibly also his children” it found that there was no compelling justification. Referring to the Jones case, it said that the test required something “truly exceptional or unavoidable”. It reached this conclusion notwithstanding that it accepted that the athlete’s motivations were “humane” and “commendable”. The tribunal did go on to find that there was no significant fault but reduced the two year sanction by only six months.

----------

For the moment, the message to athletes at all levels of sport must be the precautionary one: unless you are absolutely prevented from submitting to a sample collection you should expect a ban if you refuse to do so.


All this said, I also believe it is up to the testing authorities to perform due diligence and reinforce this stand and make sure athletes are informed clearly that they will be banned for refusing a test. There should be witnesses, and there should be no room for dispute.

I think the statement that Novak Djokovic made following the CAS decision has some valid points, but they are unfortunately lost in the rest of his tirade, and it makes it appear like he is trying to cloud the issue and damage or discredit the Anti-Doping Program (as limited as it has been) by saying things like he won't be able to trust the ITF with his samples because they have people working there who are lying or misleading players. I don't think it was a constructive statement on the whole and came off as an impassioned defense of his friend, which it probably was.

Look, these players aren't juniors, or neophytes in the pro world. They are experience players who signed a document saying they will participate in the Anti-Doping program, and that means you have to submit a sample when instructed. They should well know the ramifications for refusing to submit a sample. It's far easier for an independent person to believe that they are refusing the test to avoid being detected, and to offer every excuse in the book to do so. If the sanction for refusal is very severe (like a lifetime ban), I don't think it will be entertained.

This business of Troicki trying to call Dr. Stuart Miller (Head of ITF Anti-Doping) several times to try and avoid taking the blood test doesn't sit well with me either. It gives an appearance that there is an expectation that Dr. Miller can make exceptions to the rules when called upon. One wonders how many times it has been done before. :(

As I've said in other articles, a sports federation like ITF in Tennis, or UCI in Cycling, should not be in charge of it's own Anti-Doping testing program. It represents a clear conflict of interest as they are in charge of marketing the sport and seeing it flourishes. There should be an independent agency that is charged with testing the players, sending samples to labs, and reporting results to WADA, ITF, ATP, and the player.

Now that Brian Cookson has thankfully replaced Pat McQuaid as the president of UCI (or IUC, International Cycling Union), one of his first steps was to announce the establishment of a fully independent anti-doping unit and an independent commission to look into allegations of UCI wrong-doing. In my opinion, this is the way to go forward.

Tennis has typically been behind Cycling in matters of Anti-Doping by a few years, but I hope it doesn't take so long to get things right. But there is a lot more money involved in Tennis than Cycling, so I don't know.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Denis

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,067
Reactions
691
Points
113
Thank you for the information masterclass. I agree with what you say.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,323
Reactions
1,074
Points
113
Denisovich said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Denisovich said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
Denisovich said:
Zero tolerance after the second offense yes. And after a fair trial and proper evidence of the offense.

which we have had, so stop supporting drug cheats..its sad and immoral.

:mad: :nono

It's sad that you think that way.

sad..:speechless::speechless: you are sticking up for liars and cheats, i don't get your mentality at all. :nono

Ok, I'll try to explain it for you. What I am defending is not a person (I don't really care about Troicki and I think he should be banned for the period he was banned for), but the idea of a fair trial and the fact that while in some instances a sentence might seem too low, there might be good reasons for it related to the personal circumstances of the offender.

There is a difference there. I hope you are able to see the difference.

he had a fair trail :huh:..and he had it reviewed..

in fact his review made it even worse by saying something like troiki had no intention of deceiving the/hiding from the test..?? :huh:..umm he refused a test and then started making up stuff in his head..:spacecadet: troiki is out of his tree.

also they should not say there was no intention to cheat or dodge/deceive, the committee don't know what was going on in trioki's head..they got no idea if he really wanted to avoid a blood test because he thought he might be test positive for something.

the crime is refusing the test..all his nonsense after is not valid.
 

Denis

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,067
Reactions
691
Points
113
In any event, I wonder what kind of precedent this sets. It looks to me that it will actually mean that doping authorities need to be less sloppy in their work. If there are witnesses and you are instructed properly of the consequences, nausea and needle phobia will not help if you refuse to take the test and you will get you a two year ban right?
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,081
Reactions
7,374
Points
113
I think they set a bad precedent. They basically said a skipped test isn't the same as a failed one. I don't think their procedures were sloppy, until it came to the judgments...
 

Denis

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,067
Reactions
691
Points
113
britbox said:
http://www.itftennis.com/media/152389/152389.pdf

Troicki's mitigating circumstances (P22):

Mr Troicki acted in the way that he did in consequence of the stress that he was under - in this case, as a result of a combination of his physical condition and his panic at the prospect of giving blood. On all other occasions when he was in good health (including on 16 April 2013 – see paragraph 23 above), he gave blood, despite his phobia. On the other hand, we agree with the ITF that his circumstances only warrant affording Mr Troicki limited mitigation, given our finding that he was nonetheless aware at the time that there was a risk (however small) that his actions might result in a sanction. We have concluded in all the circumstances that the right course for us is to accept that Mr Troicki has established that he was not guilty of Significant Fault or Negligence and reduce the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility by six months.

Laughable.


I just found out you posted the wrong judgement. I am getting a lot of crap here because of it.

This is the CAS Report.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/160500/160500.pdf

bad on you britbox :nono:nono:nono

It is clear that the reduction is the result of the conduct of the officials. The only precedent it sets is that the procedures need to be in place and working.
 

Front242

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
22,992
Reactions
3,924
Points
113
Haven't had the chance to read though this whole thread but my personal opinion is the shortened bans are laughable and they should not have been shortened. Canas was banned for 2 years and they cut it to 15 months. All he took was a diuretic too. So these clowns (Cilic and Troicki) imo should serve much longer than Canas did. Completely unjust.
 

brokenshoelace

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,380
Reactions
1,334
Points
113
Federer does not come to Troicki's defense, saying no excuse to miss test: "It doesn't matter how bad you feel. I'm sorry."

Thank god.
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,081
Reactions
7,374
Points
113
Broken_Shoelace said:
Federer does not come to Troicki's defense, saying no excuse to miss test: "It doesn't matter how bad you feel. I'm sorry."

Thank god.

Andy Murray on Twitter:

"Read and respect the rules and everything is very simple."

The lads on BBC commentary today were interpreting that as referring to Troicki. Tim Henman agreed with it. I think it's basic, that regardless of whatever happens, the players know their responsibility and that if they skip a test, it's not down to whatever the tester on site says, but it's down to the rules: a skipped test is a failed one...
 

brokenshoelace

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,380
Reactions
1,334
Points
113
Kieran said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Federer does not come to Troicki's defense, saying no excuse to miss test: "It doesn't matter how bad you feel. I'm sorry."

Thank god.

Andy Murray on Twitter:

"Read and respect the rules and everything is very simple."

The lads on BBC commentary today were interpreting that as referring to Troicki. Tim Henman agreed with it. I think it's basic, that regardless of whatever happens, the players know their responsibility and that if they skip a test, it's not down to whatever the tester on site says, but it's down to the rules: a skipped test is a failed one...

Pretty much.
 

masterclass

Masters Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
652
Reactions
246
Points
43
The full article from Tennis.com on the top players reactions (friend and fellow Serbian Novak Djokovic previously made his feelings known quite extensively)... I bolded what I think are the most important points...

Discussing Viktor Troicki’s suspension for failing to take a blood test, Roger Federer says players must not be allowed to delay testing for any reason because of the potential for cheating.

“I don't know the conversation, the situation, exactly what happened,” Federer said of Troicki’s situation. "It's very important, I guess, the chaperone, the guy who comes and is next to you like a shadow, sometimes you don't know who that guy is. Sometimes they're a little hesitant because you just lost a match and you look extremely angry, so they don't dare to talk to you. They should probably just introduce themselves and say what is going on.

“Then you run to the toilet, [and you] can't go to the toilet. It's happened to me one time. Then the guy has to stay with you all night. It just becomes really complicated. But I do believe that when you are requested for a sample, you have to give the sample. It doesn't matter how bad you feel. I'm sorry. Like the test the next day for me is not a test anymore because what could have happened overnight. I don't believe anything. I believe whatever they decided on. I think it's just very important to give the sample when you're requested to give it because there you are in front of them and there is no way to escape anymore. That's where we just need to be extremely firm... Overall I trust the system.”

Troicki’s friend Novak Djokovic has said he no longer trusts the system, while Rafael Nadal says that while he believes Troicki did not take a performance-enhancing drug, the Serbian should have taken the test.

Andy Murray appeared to comment on the situation on Wednesday when he tweeted: “Read and respect the rules and everything is very simple.”


Respectfully,
masterclass
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,436
Reactions
6,262
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
Denisovich said:
britbox said:
http://www.itftennis.com/media/152389/152389.pdf

Troicki's mitigating circumstances (P22):

Mr Troicki acted in the way that he did in consequence of the stress that he was under - in this case, as a result of a combination of his physical condition and his panic at the prospect of giving blood. On all other occasions when he was in good health (including on 16 April 2013 – see paragraph 23 above), he gave blood, despite his phobia. On the other hand, we agree with the ITF that his circumstances only warrant affording Mr Troicki limited mitigation, given our finding that he was nonetheless aware at the time that there was a risk (however small) that his actions might result in a sanction. We have concluded in all the circumstances that the right course for us is to accept that Mr Troicki has established that he was not guilty of Significant Fault or Negligence and reduce the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility by six months.

Laughable.


I just found out you posted the wrong judgement. I am getting a lot of crap here because of it.

This is the CAS Report.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/160500/160500.pdf

bad on you britbox :nono:nono:nono

It is clear that the reduction is the result of the conduct of the officials. The only precedent it sets is that the procedures need to be in place and working.

OK, wrong judgment paper - honest mistake - apologies.

The facts remain the same though and that is what I'm basing my opinion on. The paper I read was the ITF judgement. I thought they were too quick to reduce the sentence and think CAS are even worse by reducing it more. I didn't agree with the ITF and I agree with the CAS judgement even less.
 

Denis

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
6,067
Reactions
691
Points
113
All right witchhunters, your next victim is Robin Haase:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698/Sport/article/detail/3549407/2013/11/22/Robin-Haase-testte-in-2006-positief-op-testosteron.dhtml

PS of course Troicki should have taken the test. That's a moot point. He got a reduction because of the conduct of officials.
 

GameSetAndMath

The GOAT
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
21,141
Reactions
3,398
Points
113
The druggies get 6 months off and the fixers get 5 years. What does this
mean? If you are going to choose between winning unethically or losing
unethically, I guess you should choose winning. Moreover you should
cheat after reaching top 30 or so, as otherwise ATP/ITF might not want
to protect you that much.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/12/olaso-banned-five-years-fixing-offenses/50049/#.UrlEOmB3uM8
 

Front242

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
22,992
Reactions
3,924
Points
113
GameSetAndMath said:
The druggies get 6 months off and the fixers get 5 years. What does this
mean? If you are going to choose between winning unethically or losing
unethically, I guess you should choose winning. Moreover you should
cheat after reaching top 30 or so, as otherwise ATP/ITF might not want
to protect you that much.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/12/olaso-banned-five-years-fixing-offenses/50049/#.UrlEOmB3uM8

Agree, the ATP/ITF are slowing killing tennis with BS antics like this. They're a laughing stock at this stage. All these announcements about nobody players too and they're the ones getting the most severe punishments, while they buy the lame excuses by the likes of Cilic and let him back playing in no time. A sad, sad bunch of clowns.