ATP World Tour Finals

[Moxie]

See Moxie, I would argue that focusing on ancient history is what you hope. We were talking about peak Novak, right? Anything before 2011 is meaningless. Since 2011 he has held his own against Rafa at RG, more so than any other player. And yes, sets do matter. It isn't just being a stats nerd--and has nothing to do with being a Roger fan (that's a red herring if I've ever seen one)--but simply looking at the actual results. And I did watch the last few rather closely and saw Novak hold his own, moreso than anyone else has.

But the point is, as Game said, no one is denying that Rafa's RG performance is way better than anyone else's, but we were talking about right now and going forward - as you know. And of course at the end of your mostly irrelevant post, you crawl your way to saying just as much at the end. So we're agreed: right now, and as far as peak Novak is concerned (2011-present), Rafa is not "miles better" at RG.

I'm not trying to undermine your viewing of the matches. If you watched them, you did. If you find my post irrelevant, so be it. I think that's undeserved. You say that nothing before 2011 matters and you also say that nothing before now matters. Sorry I even bothered, then. You say they've played close matches and I say that, upon examination, not as close as you'd like to claim. You can pat me on the head and insist that my points are what I "hope," but I have the stats on my side. If you insist that all that came before is irrelevant, then we have no discussion. But that would have been like saying there's no argument that Roger could win Wimbledon again in 2017, just because he'd won it 7 times before. By then he was 35 so all past history was irrelevant? I know it's not a h2h, but it's comparable.

 

[mrzz]

Thiem's level on clay is light years ahead of his peers.

 

[Moxie]

Thiem's level on clay is light years ahead of his peers.

But is that a qualification? How do you measure him in terms of Rafa, Novak, Stan and Roger, for example?

 

[Carol]

This was Zverev playing to Novak....

 

[herios]

Thiem's level on clay is light years ahead of his peers.

Who are his peers?

 

[El Dude]

I'm not trying to undermine your viewing of the matches. If you watched them, you did. If you find my post irrelevant, so be it. I think that's undeserved. You say that nothing before 2011 matters and you also say that nothing before now matters. Sorry I even bothered, then. You say they've played close matches and I say that, upon examination, not as close as you'd like to claim. You can pat me on the head and insist that my points are what I "hope," but I have the stats on my side. If you insist that all that came before is irrelevant, then we have no discussion. But that would have been like saying there's no argument that Roger could win Wimbledon again in 2017, just because he'd won it 7 times before. By then he was 35 so all past history was irrelevant? I know it's not a h2h, but it's comparable.

Sorry if I had a tone.

Look, this is how this conversation unfolded:

1) You said: Rafa is "miles better" than everyone on clay.
2) I said: not peak Novak.
3) You said: yes, peak Novak.
4) I said: not if you look at the record from 2011 to the present (which is peak Novak).
5) You said: but the matches weren't that close AND let's look at the whole record.
6) I said: But we're talking about peak Novak, which isn't the whole record. And further, let's look at now and the future.

I don't see how you have the stats on your side, when comparing peak Novak to Rafa or looking at the present and near future. The stats say clearly that Rafa is NOT miles ahead of Novak at RG and hasn't been so since before 2011.

I think you're mixing several different conversations. No one will argue with you that Rafa isn't miles better than everyone at RG, as far history is concerned. But this is all based upon your statement that he IS miles better on clay, with "is" implying now. I added "not peak Novak." I won't go over it again. Let's just be clear what it is we're actually talking about.

 

[Carol]

Sorry if I had a tone.

Look, this is how this conversation unfolded:

1) You said: Rafa is "miles better" than everyone on clay.
2) I said: not peak Novak.
3) You said: yes, peak Novak.
4) I said: not if you look at the record from 2011 to the present (which is peak Novak).
5) You said: but the matches weren't that close AND let's look at the whole record.
6) I said: But we're talking about peak Novak, which isn't the whole record. And further, let's look at now and the future.

I don't see how you have the stats on your side, when comparing peak Novak to Rafa or looking at the present and near future. The stats say clearly that Rafa is NOT miles ahead of Novak at RG and hasn't been so since before 2011.

I think you're mixing several different conversations. No one will argue with you that Rafa isn't miles better than everyone at RG, as far history is concerned. But this is all based upon your statement that he IS miles better on clay, with "is" implying now. I added "not peak Novak." I won't go over it again. Let's just be clear what it is we're actually talking about.

Then why Novak has not won more than 1 RG in 7 years? only once when Nadal had to retired because his wrist? definitely until now Nadal is miles better than Novak and everyone on clay, we don't know yet the future

 

[Moxie]

Sorry if I had a tone.

Look, this is how this conversation unfolded:

1) You said: Rafa is "miles better" than everyone on clay.
2) I said: not peak Novak.
3) You said: yes, peak Novak.
4) I said: not if you look at the record from 2011 to the present (which is peak Novak).
5) You said: but the matches weren't that close AND let's look at the whole record.
6) I said: But we're talking about peak Novak, which isn't the whole record. And further, let's look at now and the future.

I don't see how you have the stats on your side, when comparing peak Novak to Rafa or looking at the present and near future. The stats say clearly that Rafa is NOT miles ahead of Novak at RG and hasn't been so since before 2011.

I think you're mixing several different conversations. No one will argue with you that Rafa isn't miles better than everyone at RG, as far history is concerned. But this is all based upon your statement that he IS miles better on clay, with "is" implying now. I added "not peak Novak." I won't go over it again. Let's just be clear what it is we're actually talking about.

Firstly, it was you making it only post 2011, and then sliding it to only going forward. But I really did argue the post-2011, so don't make that me changing it. As to your 5): I actually said that the matches weren't as close as you think (not that "they weren't that close,") and I delineated why. (If you insist on paraphrasing me, you should get it right. I added the whole record as an aside, I think, so your emphasis is wrong.) I did play by your post-2011 rules, but then you moved it to "going forward." Forgive me for mentioning their total h2h at RG, but I get really, really tired of the idea that there was no Novak, vis-a-vis Nadal before 2011. Same as I get tired of the Roger/Rafa h2h whereby there is no clay.

Not to be tiresome, and you're forgiven for being condescending. I get that there is a solid chance that Novak is top drawer and Rafa is not come next May. Who knows? But, given everything we know, Rafa at his best at RG beats Novak at his best at RG. The notion of "miles apart" is subjective, but I've got history on my side. 6-1 is one thing. 11 v 1 is another. Hell, Novak didn't even win RG when he finally beat Rafa. Maybe he felt the pressure, but Nadal has had the pressure on him to win it, except the first one, probably, and he's withstood it. This is another reason that I say Nadal is "miles better." Please don't act like I'm reinventing the wheel to suggest that Rafa is a lot better at RG than Novak is. If you really want to push all of history aside, that's on you. But you're the guy that loves to roll out history and stats, so that seems weird to me.

 

[El Dude]

^Again, you keep sliding around which period of time you're talking about, and now adding this new bit about me not wanting to talk history? We can talk about tennis history if you want, but that wasn't what we started with. This started with your assertion that "Rafa is miles better than peak Novak," which I defined as 2011 to the present. I have no issue with talking about Novak before 2011, but then we're not talking about peak Novak, and then I would agree that Rafa has been, overall, miles better.

Let me ask you; do you disagree with either of these statements?

1) Rafa is historically miles better on clay than any player, including Novak's overall career (which you keep sliding towards, presumably because it justifies your usage of "miles better")
2) Current Rafa is not miles better on clay than peak Novak (this is what I thought we were talking about)

I know you agree with 1, but 2?

 

[Mile]

Zverev and Thiem wont be part of "Lost Generation". But their GS score will be leveled because of "Big Three" era.

Lets see what will Fed do today, after 1st lost he play well now. Djokovic-Federer match would be nice to have. Maybe one of the last we can see - a historic. We might calculate sudden retirement of Fed, kind of bombastic. I dont beleive he will be playing when ATP position will be falling.

 

[Ricardo]

^Again, you keep sliding around which period of time you're talking about, and now adding this new bit about me not wanting to talk history? We can talk about tennis history if you want, but that wasn't what we started with. This started with your assertion that "Rafa is miles better than peak Novak," which I defined as 2011 to the present. I have no issue with talking about Novak before 2011, but then we're not talking about peak Novak, and then I would agree that Rafa has been, overall, miles better.

Let me ask you; do you disagree with either of these statements?

1) Rafa is historically miles better on clay than any player, including Novak's overall career (which you keep sliding towards, presumably because it justifies your usage of "miles better")
2) Current Rafa is not miles better on clay than peak Novak (this is what I thought we were talking about)

I know you agree with 1, but 2?

Peak my butt. Can say that about many players....like Fed 2005 etc was better than everyone else on hard, then you say ‘not peak Safin’ .....same thing, don’t argue bollock. What’s next? Peak Wawrinka peak Nalbandian can all be used this way, so what?

 

[DarthFed]

Rafa is still miles better than Novak at RG overall. Even since 2011 it is 6-1 in RG trophies which says it all.

But head to head I don't think he is miles better at this point or after 2011 in general. It is 3-1 there and could have easily been 2-2 and Rafa was very likely to lose in 2016 and probably 2011 had they met. Djoker is 10 times more likely to lose to someone before the final than Rafa is there.

 

[DarthFed]

Dom beating Nishi, especially in straights, would help the gramps a lot. Fed needs all the help he can get

 

[Carol]

According to some comments then we could say that Novak is too close (not even one mile) to Federer in Wimbledon 4-8

 

[The_Grand_Slam]

According to some comments then we could say that Novak is too close (not even one mile) to Federer in Wimbledon 4-8

Djokovic on grass >>> Djokovic on clay

 

[monfed]

If Fed beats this giraffe face then he can top the group and avoid playing faker in the SF.

 

[DarthFed]

If Fed beats this giraffe face then he can top the group and avoid playing faker in the SF.

And just winning one set today is enough to advance. Possibly just avoiding a beatdown would as well. But winning would help as then he wouldn't face Djoker in the semis.

 

[monfed]

And just winning one set today is enough to advance. Possibly just avoiding a beatdown would as well. But winning would help as then he wouldn't face Djoker in the semis.

Losing again to this giraffe face in a big tournament like the WTF when revenge of Wimbledon is on the cards, isn't an option for Fed. He needs to go out there and show who is boss.

 

[The_Grand_Slam]

 

[Carol]

Sock trying to open the Roger´s locker room