Are the Big Four Back? (Or is it too soon to say?)

[brokenshoelace]

My point about isner was that it's the same type of result that advocates of Murray on clay use(In general Murray is one of the best, just not on this surface IMO). It's a near win against a great player, and that is all Murray has.

Murray has more than that, in the shape of actually going deep in the biggest clay court tournaments in the world. Give me that over a 5 setter (which was far from a near win) against the king of clay any day of the week.

PS: People forget that Murray had a REALLY strong clay court season in 2011. He pushed Nadal to the limit in the MC semi, came within inches of becoming the first man to beat Djokovic that year in that epic Rome semi, and made the RG semi. 2012 was disappointing for him on clay, but last year, he was injured.

I don't think his game on clay will be where it was in 2011 (that year, he was using his forehand more "heavily" on clay, as in, hitting it with even more spin, and it was working), so I think he'll struggle, by his standards, this year. That still doesn't mean he doesn't have a better resume than many of the names thrown above.

The best player (by far) he beat en route to the semis was troicki. A lot of players could have made the semi's under those circumstances. Give a guy a 4 seed for so long and he will probably make the semi's once with a little luck in the draw.

Except he made it 3 tournaments in a row that year. I'm also anxious to hear the great names Cilic, Isner, Fognini and others have beaten on clay.

I am hoping Broken watched today the F3 vs the Brit number one affair on clay. Based on this match, could you tell me where is his"ceiling" you were referring to.

Broken will now kindly refer you to Fabio's match with Tsonga, where you'll see a giant, bagel-shaped ceiling over Fognini's head.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Looks like we do have a big four.

New B4 = old B4 - AM + SW.

The new Big Four might be here to stay for at least till the year end.

 

[Fiero425]

Looks like we do have a big four.

New B4 = old B4 - AM + SW.

The new Big Four might be here to stay for at least till the year end.

I guess this isn't the "new math!" The only surprise is how Roger's been able to hold onto the top rung, but I've been so disappointed in the rest of the ATP! All too often, no lead is safe, and they'll come within points of a huge win only to give it all back; easily Tsonga this week! :nono uzzled :huh: :angel:

 

[Front242]

Are the big four back? No. The world number 1 lost at his favourite tournament and on his favourite surface to his pigeon. The world number 2 is unfortunately not 100% physically ok right now and even before that had a poor showing at the AO but then again, he's won Indian Wells and Miami so he's definitely right up there and deserving of big four status. Seeing as we're talking the one time big four members that means Federer and Murray also and while Federer's shown patches of very high play, it's been poor in finals besides Dubai. And finals are not where you want to play less than your best. Murray hasn't even played this week so it's hard to gauge his form.

I'd say we won't be able to gauge if the "big four" are back till after Wimbledon.

 

[Kieran]

Looks like we do have a big four.

New B4 = old B4 - AM + SW.

The new Big Four might be here to stay for at least till the year end.

Given that Murray holds a slam and Federer doesn't even hold a MS title, I think it's a Big 4, = Old B4 - RF + SW, with AM as the sleeping partner...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Are the big four back? No. The world number 1 lost at his favourite tournament and on his favourite surface to his pigeon. The world number 2 is unfortunately not 100% physically ok right now and even before that had a poor showing at the AO but then again, he's won Indian Wells and Miami so he's definitely right up there and deserving of big four status. Seeing as we're talking the one time big four members that means Federer and Murray also and while Federer's shown patches of very high play, it's been poor in finals besides Dubai. And finals are not where you want to play less than your best. Murray hasn't even played this week so it's hard to gauge his form.

I'd say we won't be able to gauge if the "big four" are back till after Wimbledon.

I don't think we'll be having the big 4 back in a sustained period of dominance where all of them are clearly the best 4 players in the world for a considerable amount of time. Federer is getting older and will not be as consistent and Nadal's health is always a question mark. Even when Murray recaptures his form and Novak shakes off his injury, I doubt we'll be seeing all four of them dominate at the same time for a full calendar or something like that.

 

[herios]

Murray has more than that, in the shape of actually going deep in the biggest clay court tournaments in the world. Give me that over a 5 setter (which was far from a near win) against the king of clay any day of the week.

PS: People forget that Murray had a REALLY strong clay court season in 2011. He pushed Nadal to the limit in the MC semi, came within inches of becoming the first man to beat Djokovic that year in that epic Rome semi, and made the RG semi. 2012 was disappointing for him on clay, but last year, he was injured.

I don't think his game on clay will be where it was in 2011 (that year, he was using his forehand more "heavily" on clay, as in, hitting it with even more spin, and it was working), so I think he'll struggle, by his standards, this year. That still doesn't mean he doesn't have a better resume than many of the names thrown above.

The best player (by far) he beat en route to the semis was troicki. A lot of players could have made the semi's under those circumstances. Give a guy a 4 seed for so long and he will probably make the semi's once with a little luck in the draw.

Except he made it 3 tournaments in a row that year. I'm also anxious to hear the great names Cilic, Isner, Fognini and others have beaten on clay.

I am hoping Broken watched today the F3 vs the Brit number one affair on clay. Based on this match, could you tell me where is his"ceiling" you were referring to.

Broken will now kindly refer you to Fabio's match with Tsonga, where you'll see a giant, bagel-shaped ceiling over Fognini's head.

That large bagel over his head makes him a saint
Seriously, his ceiling will be defined mainly by his temperament, hot blooded latin who loses his temper in ablink of an eye and has multiple talents, theatre being among them surely.

 

[Front242]

Are the big four back? No. The world number 1 lost at his favourite tournament and on his favourite surface to his pigeon. The world number 2 is unfortunately not 100% physically ok right now and even before that had a poor showing at the AO but then again, he's won Indian Wells and Miami so he's definitely right up there and deserving of big four status. Seeing as we're talking the one time big four members that means Federer and Murray also and while Federer's shown patches of very high play, it's been poor in finals besides Dubai. And finals are not where you want to play less than your best. Murray hasn't even played this week so it's hard to gauge his form.

I'd say we won't be able to gauge if the "big four" are back till after Wimbledon.

I don't think we'll be having the big 4 back in a sustained period of dominance where all of them are clearly the best 4 players in the world for a considerable amount of time. Federer is getting older and will not be as consistent and Nadal's health is always a question mark. Even when Murray recaptures his form and Novak shakes off his injury, I doubt we'll be seeing them dominate at the same time for a full calendar or something like that.

Yeah, me either. It was an amazing period of dominance while it lasted but nothing lasts forever. But then, when I think of who other than those 4 could potentially win a slam this year I'm stumped. I can't see Wawrinka repeating and Berdych, Ferrer and Tsonga haven't a prayer. Tsonga and Berdych may make a Wimbledon final if the draw opens right up for them and Federer and Nadal get knocked out early again but that's about it. At the other slams forget it.

 

[herios]

Looks like we do have a big four.

New B4 = old B4 - AM + SW.

The new Big Four might be here to stay for at least till the year end.

This!

WE have now 4 big events to go by, look what happened:
AO Nadrinka
IIW Djoderer
Miami Nadovic
MC Fedrinka

Same 4 in 4 different setups. Kind of conclusive for me.

 

[Fiero425]

Looks like we do have a big four.

New B4 = old B4 - AM + SW.

The new Big Four might be here to stay for at least till the year end.

This!

WE have now 4 big events to go by, look what happened:
AO Nadrinka
IIW Djoderer
Miami Nadovic
MC Fedrinka

Same 4 in 4 different setups. Kind of conclusive for me.

Did they mention Wawrinka breaking up the "hammer-lock" over the Masters that Nole and Rafa have by dominating them for the last year? :nono :clap :angel:

 

[Moxie]

Did they mention Wawrinka breaking up the "hammer-lock" over the Masters that Nole and Rafa have by dominating them for the last year? :nono :clap :angel:

Shoot! I wish I'd thought to use that for my news post on the front page. :clap

 

[Fiero425]

Did they mention Wawrinka breaking up the "hammer-lock" over the Masters that Nole and Rafa have by dominating them for the last year? :nono :clap :angel:

Shoot! I wish I'd thought to use that for my news post on the front page. :clap

I think about it a lot and usually my ire is turned on the ATP! I find so many of the top players are helped along by the gutless wonders supporting them! It's obscene to see the same players winning all the top titles year in and year out! We thought with Delpo making his mark at the USO, it had expanded the top to 5 instead of 4, but that hasn't panned out! Murray finally won something, 2 majors in fact, but his type of play can't be sustained! He's going to break down faster than Rafa! For the tour to allow Federer to hold on like this in the top rung, the tour should be ashamed of themselves! Wawrinka is finally living up to expectations and has been the most successful vs the top 4 of late! To me it's a crime no one's been able to pump themselves up enough to take out Rafa at RG but Soderling once in '09!

 

[Moxie]

^ I don't really understand your level of anger, Fiero. Why at the ATP, and what's so bad about having a small cabal of players so talented that they dominate the field? Certainly the words "obscene" and "crime" are a bit of a stretch. Clearly it doesn't take more than a small spark to set your hair on fire, but I thought you were a Djokovic fan…don't you have some investment in the dominance of top players?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Kamakshi on Big Four

I guess this thread was started in an inauspicious time. Each member of the big four
have some problem unique to them at this time. While there have been times where one
or two of the members of Big Four in trouble (see Nadal in second half of 2012, or
Fed in entrie 2013), We have to really go very far back to imagine a time when all
four simultaneously had some issue.

So, who will win RG? Man or Dog or Fog?

 

[brokenshoelace]

So, who will win RG? Man or Dog or Fog?

Counterpuncher Lleyton Hewitt, who prefers slower surfaces.

 

[Fiero425]

Kamakshi on Big Four

I guess this thread was started in an inauspicious time. Each member of the big four
have some problem unique to them at this time. While there have been times where one
or two of the members of Big Four in trouble (see Nadal in second half of 2012, or
Fed in entrie 2013), We have to really go very far back to imagine a time when all
four simultaneously had some issue.

So, who will win RG? Man or Dog or Fog?

Djokovic has no issue as far as I know! He's won 3 Masters so far this year and only lost AO match through a career zone high of Wawrinka earlier! Nadal, Murray, & Federer obvious are in trouble, but at least Rafa is still substantially in the FO! Murray's just prolonging the inevitable! :nono :snigger :laydownlaughing Looks like the rest of ATP has caught up to Fed and Rafa though! Nole is trouncing Tsonga as I post; total embarrassment!

 

[Rose]

Nole is looking good to win this Tournament, but he has been having a wrist problem off and on himself. I don't think there is any "Big Four" anymore!

 

[TennisFanatic7]

I think if Murray has a couple of decent runs at the French, Queen's, Wimbledon, we can start talking about him being back in the big four again. Federer is still capable though he's had a dip lately, I still see him as more of a "big four" player than Stan who has woefully underdelivered in all but one tournament after winning Australia.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Andy played practically nothing on clay last year so he has a huge potential next few months to make a statement.

Potential is one thing, results are a totally different beast. Until it will happen, I will be circumspect. I would better trust others to make a move on clay than him.

Like who? Other than the usual suspects...because everyone else you name, will also be based on potential and not results.

Like any of the players who have been able to win titles on clay before, unlike Andy Murray.
There are quite a few, who are still improving: Fognini, Cilic, Wawrinka.
I am expecting all of the above to improve on their results in this clay season.

Ahem...

Like any of the players who have been able to win titles on clay before, unlike Andy Murray.
There are quite a few, who are still improving: Fognini, Cilic, Wawrinka.
I am expecting all of the above to improve on their results in this clay season.

So Fognini and Cilic should be expected to be bigger factors than Murray on clay?

Good question...

Anyway, I don't expect Murray to do that well on clay. His game just isn't suited and he's not in great form. But at RG, I'd take him far more seriously than I would Cilic, Isner, Fognini, or the like.

Hmmmm...

I will explain further why I think those 3 players I mentioned will do better on clay than before:
1. Cilic is reported to have a faster serve speed than before since working with Goran, thus his better results. That will also translate well clay as well, even with lesser impact like on hards.
And by the way, people forgot that he also has been deep in a slam before (SF at AO)

2. Fognini also has been deeper in a master event on clay, aside his RG QF run, last year he was a SF at Monte Carlo. In his case confidence will take him further. His rise last year happened only after Wimbledon, when he won his first 2 clay titles back to back. This year he has won another small one. With these under his belt, he will enter the spring clay season with much more confidence than ever before.

3. Wawrinka. I am already seeing doubts in the posters statements, after his last 2 events results, thinking that his break-out was flukish. I am giving him the benefit of doubt, because he was injured in DC and took time off after that. I don't think he was well trained before the last 2 masters.
Once he will get his mojo back, he will be as dangerous like this winter and also his confidence will make a difference. Here I am sure Norman will make the magic happen again.

Boy oh boy...

Except he made it 3 tournaments in a row that year. I'm also anxious to hear the great names Cilic, Isner, Fognini and others have beaten on clay.

I am hoping Broken watched today the F3 vs the Brit number one affair on clay. Based on this match, could you tell me where is his"ceiling" you were referring to.

 

[Front242]

Harsh