Another angle on comparing tennis greats (with a pretty chart)

Shivashish Sarkar

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Agassi has 8 majors, but wasted so many yrs., not really ever dominating! A lot of his winning occurred late after Lendl, Sampras, Courier, Edberg, & Becker "waned" or left the tour! The top players around then came & went rather quickly like Hewitt & Safin OTTH!:angry-face::astonished-face::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:

True. He kept whiling his time away.
 

El Dude

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Agassi has 8 majors, but wasted so many yrs., not really ever dominating! A lot of his winning occurred late after Lendl, Sampras, Courier, Edberg, & Becker "waned" or left the tour! The top players around then came & went rather quickly like Hewitt & Safin OTTH!:angry-face::astonished-face::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:
Which is why I see Agassi as closer to Becker and Edberg than Connors and Lendl. Meaning, there's a big gap between the Connors/Lendl/Mac/Borg/Sampras tier and Agassi/Becker/Edberg/Wilander/Murray. Agassi has longevity over Edberg and Becker, but I don't think he was a better player in terms of their respective peaks.
 
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PhiEaglesfan712

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At first I thought you meant Open Era, but you specified 21st century. Ken Rosewall was still beating top 10 guys into his 40s. The last time he beat a top 10 guy was late 1977 at age 43, beating #10 Dick Stockton. The last time he beat a top 5 guy was also in 1977 at age 42, when he beat Vitas Gerulaitis (#5). He beat #2 John Newcombe in 1974 at age 39, his last top 3 head (he also beat Newcombe that year when Nuke was #1 for a bit).

For me Pancho ranks just outside of the all-time top 5. I'd rank the Big Three, Laver, and Tilden ahead of him, but he'd probably be #6 or, at the least, definitely in the top 10. He might have been similar to Pete Sampras, but with much greater longevity - he was still a very good player into his mid-40s, winning two Masters equivalents in 1969 at age 41, winning his last title in 1972 at age 44
I wonder where you have Ken Rosewall on your Top 10 list, in relation to Poncho (who you have #6). Whatever it is, just don't tell Novak about them. Otherwise, he might play until the 2032 Olympics to break these records, lol.
 

El Dude

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I wonder where you have Ken Rosewall on your Top 10 list, in relation to Poncho (who you have #6). Whatever it is, just don't tell Novak about them. Otherwise, he might play until the 2032 Olympics to break these records, lol.
Rosewall is another underrated guy, for similar reasons to Pancho, and also because people tend to remember the "Old Muscles" that got slaughtered by Connors in 1974. But he was great for a loooong time, winning Slams over a 20-year period! His first was at 18, his last at 37.

Anyhow, Rosewall is a candidate for #7. It is hard ranking him ahead of Borg, Mac, Sampras, and Lendl, but also impossible to ignore the sum total of his accomplishments. And it wasn't like he was all longevity; he was the bridge between Pancho and Laver, but probably the best player on tour only for one year, in 1963. But he was #2-3 for most of 1956-72, which is rather incredible.

My top 13 all-time would probably be:

1-2. Laver and Djokovic - Still undecided as they are just two different eras. Novak is tempting, but Laver's greatness spanned three different tours--amateur, pro, Open Era.
3-4. Fedal - sorry, won't go there. I'm comfortable ranking them 3 & 4, but not against each other. Not only too close, but their respective greatnesses have unique elements that the other doesn't have to the same degree.
5. Tilden - so dominant for so long. Similar longevity to Rosewall but with a higher peak.
6. Pancho - His dominance on the pro tour is astonishing, and I think his longevity adds a nice element, even if he didn't win anything Slam related or a big tour after the early 60s.
7. Rosewall - see above.
8. Borg - He's the hardest player to be purely statistical about, because we really only have half a career to look at. The greatest What If story of tennis history.
9. McEnroe - It might be a bit unfair to rank him behind Borg because he sort of surpassed him in 81. But unlike Borg, we actually got the second half (or third) of Mac's career, and it was a far cry from his prime.
10. Sampras - Most rank him ahead of Borg/Mac because of the 14 Slams, but I think it can't be ignored that the competition was a bit less fierce. The 90s weren't exactly weak, but the field was more even, and with less density of greats at their peak then in the 80s.
11. Lendl - sort of the red-headed stepchild of the 70s-80s, and another candidate for most underrated great. His best years were comparable to Borg's, but he had greater longevity. I suppose he gets marks off for never winning Wimbledon, which really was the premier tournament up until the Big Three era. 8-11 could arguably go in any order.
12. Budge - An older player that I think, overall, has the most impressive record of pre-Laver/Rosewall players after Tilden and Gonzales.
13. Connors - Might be a tad over-rated, due to the dubious ranking system of the 70s and the fact that such a huge number of his titles were very low level, some more like Challengers. But we shouldn't go too far - he was a great player.


The next ten would probably be Wilding (for a really old guy), Vines, Perry, Riggs, Drobny, Kramer, Agassi, Becker, Edberg, Wilander, and Murray in some order. Again, for the old guys, it was just a different tour, and some of those guys had their careers interrupted by WW2.
 
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shawnbm

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This year is a case in point:

Alcaraz has lost before the QF in four tournaments; Sinner has reached the QF in every tournament he's played, which is a very rare feat..

Seasons in which a player reached the QF in every tournament played (10 minimum):

Sinner 2023 (14 tournaments)
Djokovic 2015 (16 tournaments)
Federer 2005 (15 tournaments)
McEnroe 1982 (15 tournaments)
Connors 1982 (18 tournaments)
Borg 1980 (14 tournaments)

Rafa did it in 2018, but in only 9 tournaments played. There were several other seasons in which the player was one tournament away.
Very interesting that McEnroe's 1984 year is not on this. He was a beast that year. I would think Connors would be world number one for 1982 with that record and winning both SW19 and the US Open, but I believe the official record is Johnny Mac was number one for 1982 (which seems odd). I was also thinking that Rafa's 2010 might be up there.
 

El Dude

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Very interesting that McEnroe's 1984 year is not on this. He was a beast that year. I would think Connors would be world number one for 1982 with that record and winning both SW19 and the US Open, but I believe the official record is Johnny Mac was number one for 1982 (which seems odd). I was also thinking that Rafa's 2010 might be up there.
1982 is one of the worst instances of the early rankings being wonky. Actually, McEnroe should have been 3rd - Lendl was also great that year, and actually ranks 1st in some of my stats. Lendl won 15 titles, more than Mac (5) and Connors (7) combined. Quite a few were minor titles, but he also won the Masters final, the WCT final, and three Masters equivalents. Mac only won a single Masters equivalent.

El Dude Proprietary Stats:
PEP: Lendl 43, Connors 38, McEnroe 30
PEP%: Lendl 64%, Connors 62%, McEnroe 52%
Title Shares: Connors 40, Lendl 36, McEnroe 11

For "real" stats:
Titles: Lendl 15, Connors 7, McEnroe 5.
Win %: Lendl 92.2% (106-9), McEnroe 88.8% (71-9), Connors 88.6% (78-10)

Its kind of baffling, honestly.

In 1984 Mac lost in the first round of the Cincinnati Open to Vijay Amritraj. Other than that he played in 14 finals, losing only 1 of them (he also lost a Davis Cup match to Henrik Sundstrom; at the time it counted towards season record, thus his 82-3 record -- the highest win% (96.5) in Open Era history, and probably all of tennis history. By my accounting, it is the 4th best season of the Open Era, after Novak in 2015, Federer in 2006, and Laver in 1969.

EDIT: Here's a chart taken from my mega-chart:
Screenshot 2024-10-11 at 3.20.15 PM.png


i think the reason Mac was #1 was that the early rankings were based on average results, so Connors' QF appearances and Lendl's 4R and QFs brought them down. But clearly both were better that year.
 
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Fiero425

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1982 is one of the worst instances of the early rankings being wonky. Actually, McEnroe should have been 3rd - Lendl was also great that year, and actually ranks 1st in some of my stats. Lendl won 15 titles, more than Mac (5) and Connors (7) combined. Quite a few were minor titles, but he also won the Masters final, the WCT final, and three Masters equivalents. Mac only won a single Masters equivalent.

El Dude Proprietary Stats:
PEP: Lendl 43, Connors 38, McEnroe 30
PEP%: Lendl 64%, Connors 62%, McEnroe 52%
Title Shares: Connors 40, Lendl 36, McEnroe 11

For "real" stats:
Titles: Lendl 15, Connors 7, McEnroe 5.
Win %: Lendl 92.2% (106-9), McEnroe 88.8% (71-9), Connors 88.6% (78-10)

Its kind of baffling, honestly.

In 1984 Mac lost in the first round of the Cincinnati Open to Vijay Amritraj. Other than that he played in 14 finals, losing only 1 of them (he also lost a Davis Cup match to Henrik Sundstrom; at the time it counted towards season record, thus his 82-3 record -- the highest win% (96.5) in Open Era history, and probably all of tennis history. By my accounting, it is the 4th best season of the Open Era, after Novak in 2015, Federer in 2006, and Laver in 1969.

EDIT: Here's a chart taken from my mega-chart:
View attachment 9726

i think the reason Mac was #1 was that the early rankings were based on average results, so Connors' QF appearances and Lendl's 4R and QFs brought them down. But clearly both were better that year.

Lendl also "owned" McEnroe until '83 & '84 seasons! John was given a pep talk by Budge or Kramer about attacking Lendl more improving his result for a couple years! After the '85 USO Final, Lendl rebounded to take over their rivalry again! Connors fell by the wayside too after his '83 USO win over Ivan! :yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::anxious-face-with-sweat::astonished-face::face-with-head-bandage:
 
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El Dude

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Oh, and my PEP score:

Jannik's at 46, making him just the 11th player with a 45+ PEP season - something Edberg, Wilander, Agassi, and Becker never did. There's still 12 possible PEP to go with Paris (4), Vienna/Basel (2), and the WTF (6). With just deep results, he can become just the 9th player to reach 50 - something Sampras and Connors never did.

Meaning, this could go down as a better seasons (by PEP, at least) than Sampras or Connors ever had, and it is already better than anything by Agassi, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Nastase, Courier, Vilas, etc.
 

Fiero425

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Jannik has now won 5 big titles this year, becoming only the 12th player to do so. Most 5 big title seasons:

7 Novak (10, 8, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5)
5 Federer (8, 7, 6, 6, 5)
4 Lendl (7, 5, 5, 5)
4 Nadal (7, 6, 6, 5)
2 McEnroe (9, 5)
2 Laver (6, 6)
2 Sampras (6, 6)
2 Borg (5, 5)
1 Murray (6)
1 Nastase (5)
1 Connors (5)
1 Sinner (5)

Obviously if he wins either Paris or the WTF, he becomes only the 10th player with a 6 big title season. If he wins both, just the 5th player to win 7. A tall order, though.

Great post! Just another way to set the Big 3 above & beyond the rest of them in tennis history as they continued their excellence well into their 30's! Nole's clone (Lendl) was the only one who measured up to them! Djokovic actually doing this at 35, almost winning a CYGS! All these players got to # 1; Nastase for about a minute early on in the so called "computer pro rankings!" :astonished-face::yawningface::face-with-hand-over-mouth::fearful-face:
 
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El Dude

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Great post! Just another way to set the Big 3 above & beyond the rest of them in tennis history as they continued their excellence well into their 30's! Nole's clone (Lendl) was the only one who measured up to them! Djokovic actually doing this at 35, almost winning a CYGS! All these players got to # 1; Nastase for about a minute early on in the so called "computer pro rankings!" :astonished-face::yawningface::face-with-hand-over-mouth::fearful-face:
I still maintain that Lendl is the most underrated great in the Open Era. He wasn't just consistent but truly dominant for 85-89, except for Wilander's big year in '88, and an elite player for over a decade.

Nastase gets the YE for 72 and 73, so more than just a "minute." I know, the ATP rankings didn't start until '73, but he would have won it in '72 as well. He's definitely a guy who is better than his 2 Slams, and probably would have won more if he played in an era that emphasized Slams more.
 

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I still maintain that Lendl is the most underrated great in the Open Era. He wasn't just consistent but truly dominant for 85-89, except for Wilander's big year in '88, and an elite player for over a decade.
Two questions for you: why do you think Lendl is underrated? Not just stats, but in prose terms. I didn't watch a lot of tennis 80-90s...just in passing. I do remember he was a bit "dry" and a bit of a Bond-villain type. He was as easy to wrap your arms around as a cactus. But, second question: what match would you have me watch on YouTube to rethink him. Thanks!
 

El Dude

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Two questions for you: why do you think Lendl is underrated? Not just stats, but in prose terms. I didn't watch a lot of tennis 80-90s...just in passing. I do remember he was a bit "dry" and a bit of a Bond-villain type. He was as easy to wrap your arms around as a cactus. But, second question: what match would you have me watch on YouTube to rethink him. Thanks!
Well, I have to mention one stat, which is "8-11." That is, 8 Slam titles, 11 final losses. I think people focus on the "8" and ignore that he made 19 finals - one more than Pete, and with overall fiercer competition that Pete faced.

I think also a lot of it has to do with the fact that he wasn't as "sexy" as Borg and McEnroe. He was, as you said, a bit of a villain. Plus, his game and court persona wasn't as flashy - he was more business like, and a bit gloomy. Perhaps he wasn't as likeable as other contemporaries in a similar fashion that another certain current Slavic great isn't....something off-putting to the Western/American sensibilities, perhaps.

He also never won Wimbledon, which back then was still the "first among equals" of Grand Slams (with the US Open maybe its equal) - at least in terms of narrative.

I don't have a particular match in mind, but why not check out the 1984 Roland Garros final? As you know, that was Mac's best year and Lendl had been playing 2nd to 4th fiddle behind Mac, Connors, and Borg for a few years. I mean, it was one of just three matches Mac lost all year. Oh, and Lendl was down two sets.
 

El Dude

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Here's highlights:



If nothing else, watch the point starting at 24:35. Such a lovely sequence, and that backhand from Lendl to win the point...good lord.
 

Moxie

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Here's highlights:



If nothing else, watch the point starting at 24:35. Such a lovely sequence, and that backhand from Lendl to win the point...good lord.

I appreciate it, but I may not be able to start there. I know that match has scared McEnroe for life, and, out of loyalty, I may not be able to start there. LOL. I'm sure I can find something.

I kind of hated to trade in the "Bond-villain" thing, which lends comfort to the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude of the Djokovic fans. But let's face it, Djokovic has about 1000% more personality than Lendl. That's why he's a lightening rod. Like him, or don't. With Lendl, it was all negative space. Basically, no one really liked him until he became Murray's coach. And then most people liked him because he got Murray over the hump in Majors. And most especially they liked him because he was the only guy who could shut Murray up. :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 
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Fiero425

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Here's highlights:



If nothing else, watch the point starting at 24:35. Such a lovely sequence, and that backhand from Lendl to win the point...good lord.


This was McEnroe's season, but this match isn't the one to judge anything! Both players were running on fumes as they each went 5 sets the day before in the SF! Just another reason to rate The USO on the bottom rung of things when speaking of Major venues! The scheduling had been a disaster for years, but that particular Sat. was labeled, "The Longest Day" w/ all the matches going the limit including Navratilova taking 3 sets to defeat Evert in the ladies' final! Lendl had to save MP's in the 5th TB & McEnroe was stretched to the limit by Connors w/ their match going long into the night past midnight! :astonished-face::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::yawningface::anxious-face-with-sweat:
 

El Dude

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This was McEnroe's season, but this match isn't the one to judge anything! Both players were running on fumes as they each went 5 sets the day before in the SF! Just another reason to rate The USO on the bottom rung of things when speaking of Major venues! The scheduling had been a disaster for years, but that particular Sat. was labeled, "The Longest Day" w/ all the matches going the limit including Navratilova taking 3 sets to defeat Evert in the ladies' final! Lendl had to save MP's in the 5th TB & McEnroe was stretched to the limit by Connors w/ their match going long into the night past midnight! :astonished-face::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::yawningface::anxious-face-with-sweat:
That was RG, not the USO.
 

shawnbm

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I was there watching all of those great battles of the mid-Seventies of Chrissie and Martina and Connors/Borg/McEnroe through the rise of Sampras and Agassi and it is my humble opinion that Lendl (being from Czechoslovakia, like Martina Navratilova) got doubly-disliked for both fandom and political reasons, at least amongst USA folk back in that epoch. From a fandom perspective, he was starting in 1984 to show both Connors and McEnroe who the new boss was going to be (and he was in 1985 through the end of the decade) and he was from communist Eastern Europe, like that other gal who by that time was dominating the beloved all American Chrissie Evert (who would get some payback in the next two years before retiring a few years later). He had that terminator-like quality to him and spoke with that accent. A lot of Americans who still had the "miracle on ice" etched into their collective memories were simply not pleased to seeing their American tennis heroes being beaten by these two, and Ivan the Terrible was like a machine, a power machine. The political part was as I mentioned--folks here were tired of Soviet and Eastern European dominance in the Olympic Games in particular, especially when there were doping issues and other things. So, that is why I think Ivan (as well as Martina) had some popularity issues forty years ago. But, time has healed those wounds and Czechoslovakia is now two nations--two growing nations who are more prosperous and energetic than way back then by a wide margin. Indeed, they are success stories of the fall of the Iron Curtain in Eastern Europe.
 

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In an era where not all the top players considered it obligatory to play all 4 Slams, the USO was the tournament the elite played. The depth of top players who could win a Slam in Lendl’s day was IMO the deepest of the Open Era. From a span of Borg, Johnny Mac & Connors through Becker, Wilander & Edberg, etc.

Lendl reached a jaw dropping eight consecutive USO finals, unmatched in nearly 100 years. (Tilden accomplished this feat by 1925)
 
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