Andy Murray's Clay Court Prospects

[Luxilon Borg]

Clay has never been great for counter punchers????:huh::huh::huh::huh:

I REALLY have to wrap my head around that one.

You'd have to go back a very long way to find a counterpuncher who won much on clay. Off the top of my head Wilander is probably the last great one, and that was before the power era really took off.

Nadal does not counterpunch at least 75% of the time at the French? You have to be kidding.

 

[Moxie]

Are you saying he's too bulky (hardly!) for clay or not bulky enough? I'm lost 'cos a fella who's pretty good on clay used to be much bigger and even now when smaller he's still winning RG every year. Hint: he used to look like a pirate in clay season. So does that really make even the slightest bit of difference?

I would have been totally lost without your hint.

I am saying the later one (not bulky enough).

What I really mean is not so much the physical size, but the stamina. Andy did not
have the stamina to play long time on clay against good players. But, of late
he has developed some stamina and we need to see when it starts paying off.

I don't think his bad results on clay can be attributed to the notion that
"his game does not suit clay".

His stamina has definitely improved over the years but I can't say he's ever been too small for clay. I can't really say there are many massive tennis players out there right now, especially if we're talking guys who post their best results on clay. Technique wins over strength. Federer was easily the 2nd best clay courter after Nadal before his decline and he's hardly a bulky/strong guy. It's clearly technique that makes you hit balls hard. David "Marty McFly" Goffin even hits the ball hard and he's about as strong as Radwanska!

I don't see a problem with Murray's stamina. He's gone some very long ones with Djokovic, in both winning and losing efforts. (And he got stronger years ago, i.e., the gym work.) I agree that the best results on clay don't come from the biggest guys. This is why I've always wondered why so many were looking for JMDP to be a huge threat at RG. He hits big and flat like Soderling, but doesn't move as well, and isn't as fit for the long haul. And even Soderling was just a very successful spoiler, there. I'm intrigued by those who explain why his game doesn't translate as well to the surface, like Haelflx. All the best players have enough game to threaten on any surface, into the deep rounds, but not so many can close the deal on clay. As for Murray, though, he's had some quality results and I think he has better ones in his future. He has a multi-faceted game.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

This can go into the definition of counter puncher...

 

[Iona16]

I seem to post on this subject every year when the inevitable 'Murray' and 'clay' threads start. I'm just going to post my thread from last year.

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=188

 

[Rose]

I seem to post on this subject every year when the inevitable 'Murray' and 'clay' threads start. I'm just going to post my thread from last year.

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=188

:laydownlaughing :clap

 

[herios]

I seem to post on this subject every year when the inevitable 'Murray' and 'clay' threads start. I'm just going to post my thread from last year.

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=188

:laydownlaughing :clap

I feel for Iona. Why the heck this is a recurring subject EVERY year? So what if he is not as good on clay like on hard or grass?
By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

 

[Moxie]

By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

I'd be curious who you'd rate ahead of him. While there is a fair raft of mid-range clay specialists out there, there is also a pretty big gulf between the top-tier players and the mid-pack. Most of the best clay players, besides Ferrer, are aging out or are already retired. And Andy has won MS1000s and Slams. Who else do you see between Murray, Rafa, Novak and Roger on clay?

 

[herios]

By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

I'd be curious who you'd rate ahead of him. While there is a fair raft of mid-range clay specialists out there, there is also a pretty big gulf between the top-tier players and the mid-pack. Most of the best clay players, besides Ferrer, are aging out or are already retired. And Andy has won MS1000s and Slams. Who else do you see between Murray, Rafa, Novak and Roger on clay?

OK, probably we talk about two different things. Was the subject the hierarchy on clay among those who have won slams and amsters ONLY or all the active players ?

 

[Riotbeard]

I seem to post on this subject every year when the inevitable 'Murray' and 'clay' threads start. I'm just going to post my thread from last year.

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=188

At risk of asking a dumb question, if it is a knee problem at the core of murray's lack of success on clay, why would Lendl not be aware of this and think things will turn around for Andy on clay?

Also is it really that bad to discuss why a clearly great player has problems on one surface? Can't we all settle down. There have been threads critical of every player, if I had a nickel for every reference to Nole shirt ripping mentioned...

 

[Riotbeard]

Murray is a counter puncher at heart, and clay has never been great for counterpunchers. Whether it's Hewitt or Simon, they have the movement and high percentage play but they tend to drown on these courts.

Partially it's a testament to the fact that a lot of weapons they have are neutralized somewhat. You don't get to see Murray's net game, slice and his flat serve obviously loses some mph. Meanwhile his best shot, the bh is quite flat and doesn't penetrate as much. His fh also doesn't generate much pace, even though it's slight more effective on this surface than hards.

He still is formidable, it's just clear that he loses something in translation, unlike say Rafa where literally everything he does is amplified by the surface.

Thank you for better expressing what I was trying to say.

 

[Riotbeard]

By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

I'd be curious who you'd rate ahead of him. While there is a fair raft of mid-range clay specialists out there, there is also a pretty big gulf between the top-tier players and the mid-pack. Most of the best clay players, besides Ferrer, are aging out or are already retired. And Andy has won MS1000s and Slams. Who else do you see between Murray, Rafa, Novak and Roger on clay?

Delpo, ferrer, and monfils just off the top of my head. I would also probably put stan ahead of murray. Good cases can also be made for the likes of almagro and other clay court specialists.

 

[Moxie]

By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

I'd be curious who you'd rate ahead of him. While there is a fair raft of mid-range clay specialists out there, there is also a pretty big gulf between the top-tier players and the mid-pack. Most of the best clay players, besides Ferrer, are aging out or are already retired. And Andy has won MS1000s and Slams. Who else do you see between Murray, Rafa, Novak and Roger on clay?

Delpo, ferrer, and monfils just off the top of my head. I would also probably put stan ahead of murray. Good cases can also be made for the likes of almagro and other clay court specialists.

I mentioned Ferrer, and obviously he has pedigree. I've already expressed my reservations about DelPo on clay. Personally, I think people have long overrated him on the surface, and I'd cite stamina and movement as issues, and on both points I'd rate Murray above him. I won't bite on Monfils. If you look at their record on clay, Murray's is slightly better. (.621 v. .612.) And I'd always take Murray in the clutch. I also think Almagro is a fairly weak entry, at this stage of his career. I'd be curious if you'd actually make a case for another clay specialist, rather than just nodding to them in a blanket way. Fognini, maybe, as he's also trending these days.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Stan, as he's always been very good on clay, though I don't know what his results are. And I think he could be the bane of many this year during the clay season, though I wouldn't take him for the win at RG.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

JMDP also took out Federer in 2009 FO.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

JMDP also took out Federer in 2009 FO.

Wha? Roger Federer: 2009 FO Champion. JMDP has no wins over Fed there.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

JMDP also took out Federer in 2009 FO.

Wha? Roger Federer: 2009 FO Champion. JMDP has no wins over Fed there.

Oops, It was TWI (typing while intoxicated) error. I meant to type almost
and instead typed also

 

[Riotbeard]

By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

I'd be curious who you'd rate ahead of him. While there is a fair raft of mid-range clay specialists out there, there is also a pretty big gulf between the top-tier players and the mid-pack. Most of the best clay players, besides Ferrer, are aging out or are already retired. And Andy has won MS1000s and Slams. Who else do you see between Murray, Rafa, Novak and Roger on clay?

Delpo, ferrer, and monfils just off the top of my head. I would also probably put stan ahead of murray. Good cases can also be made for the likes of almagro and other clay court specialists.

I mentioned Ferrer, and obviously he has pedigree. I've already expressed my reservations about DelPo on clay. Personally, I think people have long overrated him on the surface, and I'd cite stamina and movement as issues, and on both points I'd rate Murray above him. I won't bite on Monfils. If you look at their record on clay, Murray's is slightly better. (.621 v. .612.) And I'd always take Murray in the clutch. I also think Almagro is a fairly weak entry, at this stage of his career. I'd be curious if you'd actually make a case for another clay specialist, rather than just nodding to them in a blanket way. Fognini, maybe, as he's also trending these days.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Stan, as he's always been very good on clay, though I don't know what his results are. And I think he could be the bane of many this year during the clay season, though I wouldn't take him for the win at RG.

I did say Stan...

I think Delpo clearly has better results on clay, same with monfils. (RG Semis each and titles on the surface). Robredo isn't currently better, but would have been closer to his prime.

I think people make a big deal out of a couple close losses murray did against top clay courters and one rg semi. It's worth noting that in that semi's run andy beat one seeded player, the fifteenth seed Victor Troiki, and it took five sets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_French_Open). Frankly there have been few easier runs to the semi-finals of any grand slam.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

JMDP also took out Federer in 2009 FO.

Wha? Roger Federer: 2009 FO Champion. JMDP has no wins over Fed there.

Oops, It was TWI (typing while intoxicated) error. I meant to type almost
and instead typed also

No worries...gimme some of what you got...

 

[tented]

I seem to post on this subject every year when the inevitable 'Murray' and 'clay' threads start. I'm just going to post my thread from last year.

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=188

I remembered this thread, but was certain it was on the old forum, so I didn't look for it. Thanks for reminding us, Iona.

 

[Riotbeard]

Also the only top 10 player he has EVER beaten on the surface, was davydenko in 09. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Murray_career_statistics#Wins_over_top_10s_per_season

 

[herios]

By the way, I do not consider him right behind Rafa, Roger and Nole on clay. There are plenty others ahead of him beside those 3.

I'd be curious who you'd rate ahead of him. While there is a fair raft of mid-range clay specialists out there, there is also a pretty big gulf between the top-tier players and the mid-pack. Most of the best clay players, besides Ferrer, are aging out or are already retired. And Andy has won MS1000s and Slams. Who else do you see between Murray, Rafa, Novak and Roger on clay?

Delpo, ferrer, and monfils just off the top of my head. I would also probably put stan ahead of murray. Good cases can also be made for the likes of almagro and other clay court specialists.

And Robredo for example. He mas many clay court titles including a master. Murray has never been in a clay court final. That is glaring to me on his portfolio. I would put him behind Monaco as well.