Agassi: Nadal best ever, not Federer

[atttomole]

It is a let down, but he's still better and more successful across the surfaces than anyone Roger faced between 2004-2007, that's the point...

It is very true that Djokovic was a big threat in 2011, but let us not forget that he was a top player from 2008, and he took three years to reach his 2011 level. We could say he was adjusting to the players who were already dominant. He also had to deal with health issues, which limited his stamina. As has been discussed over the years, Roger's dominance also contributed to the high level that Rafa, Djokovic and Murray attained.

 

[DarthFed]

I'll break my promise of not posting here, and remind everyone that after 2011, Novak has done the following:

2012: Won the AO. Reached FO final. Wimbledon semi. US Open final. (3 out of 4 finals and a slam win).
2013: Won the AO. Reached FO semi final (technicality since he played Nadal "early" due to Rafa's seeding post injury, otherwise he would have made the final), reached Wimbledon final, reached US Open final (3 out 4 finals and a slam win, and had Nadal's seeding not been low due to injury, Novak would have made all 4 finals).

So please, this "not exemplary," "mediocre," and other BS needs to stop. Yes, he wasn't as good or as consistent as he was in 2011, but he was still ridiculously good. And everyone knows I consider Federer GOAT, but please, to everyone playing down Novak's consistency since 2011, name me a Fed rival circa 2004-2007 who came even close...

Now I'll be back to not posting until I post again.

Nadal was already the best anyone had seen in clay by 2007 and also made back to back Wimbledon finals and like Nole, won 1 slam each year. So I wouldn't say he was significantly better all things considered. We can also throw in the start of 2014 where Nole lost in the QF of his best slam.

That's two surfaces, Darth. And on grass, he was still a work in progress. He wasn't a dangerous player on all surfaces, like Novak has been for the last few years. Throw in Nole's two WTF titles, ending 2012 as #1, and the guy is plainly no schmo.

As for runs by Gonzo and baggy, these are runs. Like Stan this year, but without the bad back. But where are these guys at any other slams, that you can say they stack up to Nole, of post-2011? I know that you, DarthFed, haven't made this mistake, but trumpeting guys who were never gonna win a major, but did well as snipers along the way, is unfair to Nole, who's a respected and feared factor at every major going.

If we need proof of this statement, just look at him the last two years, at his worst major...

So you think Nole of 2012-2013 was better than 2006-2007 Rafa on grass? I don't. I've never said that Gonzo, Baghs, Roddick, etc. measure up to Djokovic but certain fans are quick to forget Rafa from 05-07 just like some suddenly mark old man Federer (who has won 1 slam of the past 16 and only made 1 other final) as some amazing competition.

I will put this another way, knowing what we know do you think Roger would trade out Rafa from 05-07 for 11-13 Djokovic? And yes, I'm throwing 2011 Nole in there and the answer is still the same...

 

[Kieran]

I don't think anyone said Nole is better than Rafa on grass: I said Nole is more dangerous and successful across all surfaces over the last two seasons than anyone Roger faced from 2004-2007.

And this is true.

As for whether or not you'd be a macho man and want 2011 Nole or even later versions, you don't have a choice, mate: you're stuck with Baggy and Gonzo, for your troubles...

 

[DarthFed]

Nole was good on more surfaces than Rafa, that we agree on. However, he didn't have a stranglehold on any surface to the same degree that Rafa already had on clay. So Rafa back then is way way better than Nole on clay and is also better than him on grass. Whereas Nole is way way better than Rafa on hards and indoors.

Now don't dodge the question, do you think, knowing what we do now, that Roger would trade Rafa of 05-07 for Nole 11-13? Yes or no, bro!

 

[atttomole]

I see where you're going El Dude, but for me it doesn't stack up. In theory you could look at tennis players as static entities with consistent form, but that's not how it works in reality. Front made a good point about the level of Gonzo's play at the Australian Open. To me, it's not good enough to look at who the player was who was beaten, it has to be refined, and their level of play at that particular time is essential to get the right picture. That's not to say that the exercise isn't valid, as long as we all accept it for what it is...

For a similar reason I find it difficult to fault Rafa for some of his losses at the faster slams. The guy ran into a guy who was playing sick tennis... think Rosol or Tsonga. And that for me is what makes Federer's dominance exceptional. The guy simply didn't lose. Even if his opponent was having a Rosol like moment, he just elevated to the most ridiculous levels. I guess I'm often baffled by how that consistency of extreme performance gets dismissed to fit a narrative. I still remember how truly great he was...

I agree with this. It is the level of play at a particular time that matters. Gonzo did not win a slam in his career but played excellent in 2007, and some people may look at him as insignificant. Same applies to Baghdatis in 2006. I also think that Roger beating Nalbandian in 2004 was huge, because Nalbandian had been troubling him for some time, and I really feared he could have lost that match. But because Nalbandian did not win a slam, he is seen as an insignificant opponent.

 

[Kieran]

Nole was good on more surfaces than Rafa, that we agree on. However, he didn't have a stranglehold on any surface to the same degree that Rafa already had on clay. So Rafa back then is way way better than Nole on clay and is also better than him on grass. Whereas Nole is way way better than Rafa on hards and indoors.

Now don't dodge the question, do you think, knowing what we do now, that Roger would trade Rafa of 05-07 for Nole 11-13? Yes or no, bro!

If you had Nole 2011 back in 2004-2007, Roger isn't winning so many majors.

Nole of post-2011 is better than whatever Roger faced, if you exclude Rafa on clay. Rafa on grass in 2006 was no trouble for Roger. He was still too raw and green for his first Wimbledon final.

I know what you're getting at: the French Open. But you're going to lose a lot of HC majors in the trade off, especially if you have 2011 Nole. It's hypothetical, and impossible to prove. In other words, you'd have to ask Mr Federer what he wants! :laydownlaughing

 

[DarthFed]

Nole was good on more surfaces than Rafa, that we agree on. However, he didn't have a stranglehold on any surface to the same degree that Rafa already had on clay. So Rafa back then is way way better than Nole on clay and is also better than him on grass. Whereas Nole is way way better than Rafa on hards and indoors.

Now don't dodge the question, do you think, knowing what we do now, that Roger would trade Rafa of 05-07 for Nole 11-13? Yes or no, bro!

If you had Nole 2011 back in 2004-2007, Roger isn't winning so many majors.

Nole of post-2011 is better than whatever Roger faced, if you exclude Rafa on clay. Rafa on grass in 2006 was no trouble for Roger. He was still too raw and green for his first Wimbledon final.

I know what you're getting at: the French Open. But you're going to lose a lot of HC majors in the trade off, especially if you have 2011 Nole. It's hypothetical, and impossible to prove. In other words, you'd have to ask Mr Federer what he wants! :laydownlaughing

Hmmm, last I checked 04-07 is 4 years not 1. Has anyone ever suggested you should move to the States and start a career in politics? I take the dodging as some form of reluctant agreement. I don't think we will ever get to ask Mr. Federer that question so we are left to guess what he would want.

If we are going 05-07 then I think Roger has 1 or 2 less AO's (he won 2 total during that period) and probably 1-2 more RG's and a much higher probability of having a calendar year slam as well. I don't think anything else changes, any version of Nole we've seen, 2011 included, is a large underdog to prime Roger on grass and fast hards.

 

[Kieran]

As you say, brother, we're left to guess what Roger would want. We're also left to speculate as to what might happen. They both might have calendar year slams, and the heat would really be on Young Ralph to come up with something new...

 

[Federberg]

Darth I'm not a huge fan of these hypotheticals, but from where I'm sitting peak Federer doesn't have that much to worry about vs prime Novak, so I tend to agree with you. I would only concede the AO as a place where they're a match. I don't see much of a contest on grass, and I would put money on Roger at Flushing. And I also see a fitter faster Federer winning on clay. It's all very well folks (possibly?) using Rafa as a benchmark, but match ups are a significant issue. The consistency of peak Federer's forehand as a point ender, and his ability to move quickly enough to cover the deuce court neutralises Novaks edge on him now. And we're left with the variety Roger has that would still bamboozle Novak. Let's not forget Roger beat this guy at RG when he was zoning.. The key point I'm trying to promote is that peak to peak comparisons will fail because it forgets match ups in my view

 

[Kieran]

Again, none of this proves that Roger faced anyone as dangerous across the surfaces as Nole, post-2011. He didn't. Nole has to his name - currently - 5 MS titles, and the WTF. I don't really have to read his CV out again. Of course it would be great for Roger fans, if he had no rafa to face.

It would be great, in a similar fantasy, for Rafa that he had been five years older and peaked in 2003, and stayed fit.

As for hypotheticals, they're great, but it's like introducing an unknown into stable ecological system. Everything might change, and nobody could have guessed it beforehand...

 

[DarthFed]

Again, none of this proves that Roger faced anyone as dangerous across the surfaces as Nole, post-2011. He didn't. Nole has to his name - currently - 5 MS titles, and the WTF. I don't really have to read his CV out again. Of course it would be great for Roger fans, if he had no rafa to face.

It would be great, in a similar fantasy, for Rafa that he had been five years older and peaked in 2003, and stayed fit.

As for hypotheticals, they're great, but it's like introducing an unknown into stable ecological system. Everything might change, and nobody could have guessed it beforehand...

Yes, Nole can play on all the surfaces while Rafa wasn't good on hard courts yet. But that does little to negate the fact that he was already incredible on clay and good on grass. So who is truly the greater threat to Roger those years? Nole might be very good on fast hards but he is badly overmatched there, same as grass. And Roger definitely has better chances vs. Nole at AO than he did vs. Rafa at RG.

 

[Front242]

Again, none of this proves that Roger faced anyone as dangerous across the surfaces as Nole, post-2011. He didn't. Nole has to his name - currently - 5 MS titles, and the WTF. I don't really have to read his CV out again. Of course it would be great for Roger fans, if he had no rafa to face.

It would be great, in a similar fantasy, for Rafa that he had been five years older and peaked in 2003, and stayed fit.

As for hypotheticals, they're great, but it's like introducing an unknown into stable ecological system. Everything might change, and nobody could have guessed it beforehand...

Let's be honest here, you don't give a damn about MS titles or the WTF and it's all about slams and the fact that many Nadal fans are pissed at the amount of slams Roger won between '04-07.

For your dig at Baggy AO '06 I give you Puerta RG '05.
For your dig at Gonzo AO '07 (amazingly high level making monkeys out of Nadal in the 1/4s and Haas in the semi (3! ufes in 3 sets as I mentioned earlier) I give you the fearsome (cough) Berdych Wimbledon 2010.
For your dig at Roddick, well....he was clearly a very tough player in his prime (and during Roger's, just the latter had an uncanny read of his serve which frustrated the hell out of him) and as late as 2009 still played a blinder of a final at Wimbledon losing 16-14 in the 5th. A poor opponent indeed. You said these 3: Baggy, Gonzo and Roddick were never gonna win a slam. Well, I'm sure you feel the same way about Soderling RG 2010 then too. A very big spoiler that year and in '09 obviously, but was he ever the favourite to win it? Can't be therefore any more fearsome than Baggy, Gonzo or Roddick can he?

 

[Front242]

^ That's 3-3 there!

 

[Kieran]

Again, none of this proves that Roger faced anyone as dangerous across the surfaces as Nole, post-2011. He didn't. Nole has to his name - currently - 5 MS titles, and the WTF. I don't really have to read his CV out again. Of course it would be great for Roger fans, if he had no rafa to face.

It would be great, in a similar fantasy, for Rafa that he had been five years older and peaked in 2003, and stayed fit.

As for hypotheticals, they're great, but it's like introducing an unknown into stable ecological system. Everything might change, and nobody could have guessed it beforehand...

Yes, Nole can play on all the surfaces while Rafa wasn't good on hard courts yet. But that does little to negate the fact that he was already incredible on clay and good on grass. So who is truly the greater threat to Roger those years? Nole might be very good on fast hards but he is badly overmatched there, same as grass. And Roger definitely has better chances vs. Nole at AO than he did vs. Rafa at RG.

Actually, Roger should have done better at RG in 2005, than he did. That's my view. I think he had an opportunity to stomp louder around Rafa when Rafa was green, and maybe take that semi final.

Rafa wasn't a threat to Roger on grass until 2007.

He wasn't a threat on hards...at all. Nor was he a threat at the WTF.

I think you're speculating about the rest. Especially since you allowed Novak 2011 to enter the hypothesis.

But you know, you're quite a nifty politician yourself. You're saying that Rafa in 2005-2007 was a better all-court player and more dangerous to Roger on all courts, than Nole 2012-2103?

Because that's the point I've been making, buddy. Just because Roger couldn't handle Rafa on clay doesn't mean he was under any serious threat at the other majors...

 

[Kieran]

Let's be honest here, you don't give a damn about MS titles or the WTF and it's all about slams and the fact that many Nadal fans are pissed at the amount of slams Roger won between '04-07.

For your dig at Baggy AO '06 I give you Puerta RG '05.
For your dig at Gonzo AO '07 (amazingly high level making monkeys out of Nadal in the 1/4s and Haas in the semi (3! ufes in 3 sets as I mentioned earlier) I give you the fearsome (cough) Berdych Wimbledon 2010.
For your dig at Roddick, well....he was clearly a very tough player in his prime (and during Roger's, just the latter had an uncanny read of his serve which frustrated the hell out of him) and as late as 2009 still played a blinder of a final at Wimbledon losing 16-14 in the 5th. A poor opponent indeed. You said these 3: Baggy, Gonzo and Roddick were never gonna win a slam. Well, I'm sure you feel the same way about Soderling RG 2010 then too. A very big spoiler that year and in '09 obviously, but was he ever the favourite to win it? Can't be therefore any more fearsome than Baggy, Gonzo or Roddick can he?

Hey, I'll take your Soderling 2010 and raise you a Sod 2009.

The question being put is this: is Novak post-2011 a bigger danger on all courts than Roger faced from 2004-2007?

Your answer is...?

And that's it. Forget about Roger, let's make the question about Nole: Would you agree that this post-2011 version of Nole was a bigger danger on all courts than Roddick, Hewitt and so on, even Rafa, who was still a work in progress (albeit number 2 in the world) from 2004-2007?

 

[DarthFed]

Again, none of this proves that Roger faced anyone as dangerous across the surfaces as Nole, post-2011. He didn't. Nole has to his name - currently - 5 MS titles, and the WTF. I don't really have to read his CV out again. Of course it would be great for Roger fans, if he had no rafa to face.

It would be great, in a similar fantasy, for Rafa that he had been five years older and peaked in 2003, and stayed fit.

As for hypotheticals, they're great, but it's like introducing an unknown into stable ecological system. Everything might change, and nobody could have guessed it beforehand...

Yes, Nole can play on all the surfaces while Rafa wasn't good on hard courts yet. But that does little to negate the fact that he was already incredible on clay and good on grass. So who is truly the greater threat to Roger those years? Nole might be very good on fast hards but he is badly overmatched there, same as grass. And Roger definitely has better chances vs. Nole at AO than he did vs. Rafa at RG.

Actually, Roger should have done better at RG in 2005, than he did. That's my view. I think he had an opportunity to stomp louder around Rafa when Rafa was green, and maybe take that semi final.

Rafa wasn't a threat to Roger on grass until 2007.

He wasn't a threat on hards...at all. Nor was he a threat at the WTF.

I think you're speculating about the rest. Especially since you allowed Novak 2011 to enter the hypothesis.

But you know, you're quite a nifty politician yourself. You're saying that Rafa in 2005-2007 was a better all-court player and more dangerous to Roger on all courts, than Nole 2012-2103?

Because that's the point I've been making, buddy. Just because Roger couldn't handle Rafa on clay doesn't mean he was under any serious threat at the other majors...

No, the whole point of the weak competition talk is to downgrade Roger's resume as a whole. Well I am giving the hypothetical where Roger's #1 rival from 2005-2007 is traded out for Rafa's #1 rival from 2011-2013. We could also talk of how hard Rafa's 2010 must have been but we won't go there :snigger Surely if Rafa has had it so much tougher this means that Roger's resume would take a huge hit right? Nole would be more of a threat at hard court slams than Rafa was, but what about clay and grass?

 

[Kieran]

No, the whole point of the weak competition talk is to downgrade Roger's resume as a whole. Well I am giving the hypothetical where Roger's #1 rival from 2005-2007 is traded out for Rafa's #1 rival from 2011-2013. We could also talk of how hard Rafa's 2010 must have been but we won't go there :snigger Surely if Rafa has had it so much tougher this means that Roger's resume would take a huge hit right? Nole would be more of a threat at hard court slams than Rafa was, but what about clay and grass?

Well, it's interesting that it was Agassi who raised this issue, isn't it? It's Agassi who said that Rafa faced tougher guys. Why do you think he said this?

I'll make a deal with you on mentioning Rafa's 2010, which you most likely think is similar to Roger's buddy-years where he won his early majors: I won't mention 2010 if you don't mention 2011! That's still a sore topic round these parts - but it was healthy for the sport, that the top dog had a fearsome and capable rival, even on his own favoured patch...

 

[Kieran]

Anyway lads, it's been good fun, so let me agree with you's on this: I disagree with Agassi.

I don't believe in GOATs. I don't believe Federer is greater than Nadal, either, but that's a different argument. Or maybe it's the same argument, put differently.

But I agree with this most of all: I'm off to bed! :snigger :smooch

 

[bobvance]

No, the whole point of the weak competition talk is to downgrade Roger's resume as a whole. Well I am giving the hypothetical where Roger's #1 rival from 2005-2007 is traded out for Rafa's #1 rival from 2011-2013. We could also talk of how hard Rafa's 2010 must have been but we won't go there :snigger Surely if Rafa has had it so much tougher this means that Roger's resume would take a huge hit right? Nole would be more of a threat at hard court slams than Rafa was, but what about clay and grass?

Well, it's interesting that it was Agassi who raised this issue, isn't it? It's Agassi who said that Rafa faced tougher guys. Why do you think he said this?

I'll make a deal with you on mentioning Rafa's 2010, which you most likely think is similar to Roger's buddy-years where he won his early majors: I won't mention 2010 if you don't mention 2011! That's still a sore topic round these parts - but it was healthy for the sport, that the top dog had a fearsome and capable rival, even on his own favoured patch...

Your post implies that the only feather in Federer's cap is that bunch of early majors. You're choosing to ignore the fact that old Roger has had considerable success against the field including Novak and Andy even in Roger's down years. In 2011 he even graciously derailed the Novak freight train since he knew Rafa wasn't proving capable of doing it

 

[Kieran]

Rafa did it to Nole five times in Paris, Bob, he'd have taken his chances...