A Reevaluation of Andy Murray

[Great Hands]

i totally agree with al these points but i find it kind of funny that we have a thread about this now since i, and presumably anyone who knows about tennis, has known all this for years.

for murray to beat a memebr of the big 3, they need to underpefrmornm,

this is how it always has been, and always will be. as a massive murray fan, i have never been under any illisuiiosns about this.

this is not to put murrray down. federer and nadal are both all-time top 3 and novak is all-tome top 10 and rising. as i mentioned in another thread, how many slams would becker or edberg have won if they were in andy's shoes, playing in the era of fedalovic, playing rafa t the french, fed and wd, novak a thte ao? they'd prorbanly be about hwre andy is, with a coupky of majiors,

i firsdt saw andy at qyueens in 2005. most pundits thought he cld be a top 20 player, but probably not much higfher because, whilst talented, he didn't seem phydcially strong enough. never in my wildest dreams did i think he would become a mupltiple graqnd slam champion. it is a credit to his effort and drive that he has had the success he has had, and it has been, and contnies to be, a fun ride wathcing him.

 

[BIG3]

Novak is clearly lights ahead of everyone else now and heavy favorite in every slams. Fed and Murray need draw's help. For instance, what if Nole dueled out with Stan in RG semi and Murray waited in another half, or Nole had to face Murray and Fed back to back in W19.

Murray is in very strong condition and only lost to Novak in AO/RG and Fed in W19. No shame about it. He needs to move #2 to enhance his chance. The same applies to Fed.

With Murray's leap on clay performance, IF Novak can surpass Rafa in slams figure, why Murray is barred from career slam? You never know.

FYI, Fed is #2.

In Fed's case, he needs to KEEP #2.

 

[Great Hands]

As a huge Murray fan, I totally agree with all these points but I find it kind of funny that we have a thread about this now since I, and presumably anyone who knows about tennis, has known all this for years. So this is not a 'reevaluation' of Murray!

For Murray to beat Fedalovic, they need to underperform.

This is how it always has been. I have never been under any illusions about this.

He's still a great player. He has as many slams as greats like Rafter, Safin, Hewitt etc. You can argue he's even better than them already on the basis of his overall career and the toughness of his competition.

Broken Shoelace's analysis was great. Murray's game, especially his forehand, is not as naturally suited to offensive play which, unfortunately, tends to win you slams. My favourite things to watch in tennis are:
1. Amazing defense
2. Great hands/touch/feel
3. Variety of shot, pace and spin
4. Long rallies
5. Cat and mouse play
6. Point construction
7. Tactical adjustments

Things I find boring:
1. Overly aggressive play
2. First strike tennis
3. Short rallies
4. Ball bashing

Can you see why Murray is my favourite player? Some of the things he does so well are more subtle pleasures - it's not all about pounding winners. Murray's gifts may not win him as many slams as some others but he is a highly skilled player and a joy to watch.

 

[Great Hands]

this is not to put murrray down. federer and nadal are both all-time top 3 and novak is all-tome top 10 and rising. as i mentioned in another thread, how many slams would becker or edberg have won if they were in andy's shoes, playing in the era of fedalovic, playing rafa t the french, fed and wd, novak a thte ao? they'd prorbanly be about hwre andy is, with a coupky of majiors,

i firsdt saw andy at qyueens in 2005. most pundits thought he cld be a top 20 player, but probably not much higfher because, whilst talented, he didn't seem phydcially strong enough. never in my wildest dreams did i think he would become a mupltiple graqnd slam champion. it is a credit to his effort and drive that he has had the success he has had, and it has been, and contnies to be, a fun ride wathcing him.

 

[Great Hands]

what you say here is just admitting to a truth that non-Murray fans have known for years.

I'm a Murray fan and I've known it for years!

 

[Great Hands]

As a huge Murray fan, I totally agree with all these points but I find it kind of funny that we have a thread about this now since I, and presumably anyone who knows about tennis, has known all this for years. So this is not a 'reevaluation' of Murray!

For Murray to beat Fedalovic, they need to underperform.

This is how it always has been. I have never been under any illusions about this.

He's still a great player. He has as many slams as greats like Rafter, Safin, Hewitt etc. You can argue he's even better than them already on the basis of his overall career and the toughness of his competition.

Broken Shoelace's analysis was great. Murray's game, especially his forehand, is not as naturally suited to offensive play which, unfortunately, tends to win you slams. My favourite things to watch in tennis are:
1. Amazing defense
2. Great hands/touch/feel
3. Variety of shot, pace and spin
4. Long rallies
5. Cat and mouse play
6. Point construction
7. Tactical adjustments

Things I find boring:
1. Overly aggressive play
2. First strike tennis
3. Short rallies
4. Ball bashing

Can you see why Murray is my favourite player? Some of the things he does so well are more subtle pleasures - it's not all about pounding winners. Murray's gifts may not win him as many slams as some others but he is a highly skilled player and a joy to watch.

 

[Kirijax]

Then Wimbledon came. Again in front of a home crowd, Murray was fortunate to have Djokovic in the final. Djokovic had just fought through an incredible 5-set match with del Potro and had to be feeling the effects of it. Murray himself had come from two sets down to escape Fernando Verdasco so it's difficult to see how he was feeling by the time of the final. But he was able to ride an emotional wave to the title.

The deciding factor in that Wimbledon was, IMO that Djokovic was spent after his SF by the time the final came along, while Andy's 5 setter against Verdasco was a QF, and his SF against Janowicz did not take a lot out of him. Andy had time to recover, Nole not so much.
Other than that, this was a great post kirijax

Thanks nehmeth. I kind of implied that when I was writing but didn't stat it clearly. Murray did have more time than recover from his epic match with Verdasco, while Djokovic had less time to bounce back from his classic with del Potro. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Fiero425]

Then Wimbledon came. Again in front of a home crowd, Murray was fortunate to have Djokovic in the final. Djokovic had just fought through an incredible 5-set match with del Potro and had to be feeling the effects of it. Murray himself had come from two sets down to escape Fernando Verdasco so it's difficult to see how he was feeling by the time of the final. But he was able to ride an emotional wave to the title.

The deciding factor in that Wimbledon was, IMO that Djokovic was spent after his SF by the time the final came along, while Andy's 5 setter against Verdasco was a QF, and his SF against Janowicz did not take a lot out of him. Andy had time to recover, Nole not so much.
Other than that, this was a great post kirijax

You aren't going to believe what I thought of that Murray match vs Verdasco! I've seen the same thing happen over and over like I've said about pros of today who are gutless; gave up his 2 set lead and there was no doubt in my mind it would occur! Most 2-0 leads can be booked, but these guys just don't know how to finish; even Nole at times when serving for a match! The last 2 seasons he's given up a break against Federer, then lost the subsequent TB! That just shouldn't happen on such a regular basis! :cover :nono :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kirijax]

The Andy Murray-Guillermo Vilas comparison is very good. Someone else has brought it up before but it definitely applies here.

The stats are very similar. Vilas has a couple of cheap Slams that he won at the Australian Open. He defeated career-high No. 44 and 0 titlist John Marks in 1978 and career-high No. 14 and 2-titles John Sadri in 1979. Vilas did win the (what is now) World Tour Final in 1974. He has a whole lot more tour titles, including nine of what would be today's Masters 1000.
Vilas had a .500 mark vs. Connors-McEnroe (10-10) but had trouble with Borg (5-17). Vilas met Borg in two French Open finals and went down in straight sets both times.

It will be interesting to see how people rank Vilas and Murray when Murray's career is over.

 

[Fiero425]

The Andy Murray-Guillermo Vilas comparison is very good. Someone else has brought it up before but it definitely applies here.

The stats are very similar. Vilas has a couple of cheap Slams that he won at the Australian Open. He defeated career-high No. 44 and 0 titlist John Marks in 1978 and career-high No. 14 and 2-titles John Sadri in 1979. Vilas did win the (what is now) World Tour Final in 1974. He has a whole lot more tour titles, including nine of what would be today's Masters 1000.
Vilas had a .500 mark vs. Connors-McEnroe (10-10) but had trouble with Borg (5-17). Vilas met Borg in two French Open finals and went down in straight sets both times.

It will be interesting to see how people rank Vilas and Murray when Murray's career is over.

If you look at the cold, hard numbers there seems to be similarities, but I can't agree in reality! Vilas was a legitimate GS winner who just happened to play against someone more superior in Borg! Vilas wasn't as vulnerable as Murray IMO, winning on clay routinely when Borg wasn't there! Murray can't say that; save this season with a couple events! Vilas had a 50+ match winning streak; never happen with Murray! Vilas sabotaged his own career by getting busted taking appearance money! I can only remember the one suspension for that offense, but it could have happened more often behind the scenes to protect the game! He had a ton of ability and desire, but having Ion Tiriac as his manager put him on a course of self-destruction acquiring money IMO! Becker didn't fair much better in his personal life listening to that guy's counsel! :cover :nono :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Backhand_DTL]

Then Wimbledon came. Again in front of a home crowd, Murray was fortunate to have Djokovic in the final. Djokovic had just fought through an incredible 5-set match with del Potro and had to be feeling the effects of it. Murray himself had come from two sets down to escape Fernando Verdasco so it's difficult to see how he was feeling by the time of the final. But he was able to ride an emotional wave to the title.

The deciding factor in that Wimbledon was, IMO that Djokovic was spent after his SF by the time the final came along, while Andy's 5 setter against Verdasco was a QF, and his SF against Janowicz did not take a lot out of him. Andy had time to recover, Nole not so much.
Other than that, this was a great post kirijax

Thanks nehmeth. I kind of implied that when I was writing but didn't stat it clearly. Murray did have more time than recover from his epic match with Verdasco, while Djokovic had less time to bounce back from his classic with del Potro. Thanks for pointing that out.

And Murray had to play Janowicz after his 5-setter, where he could win comfortably playing at a solid level but nowhere near his best. It's similar to Novak's situation this year where he had a comfortable match-up in Cilic after his win against Anderson or playing Berdych after the match against Wawrinka in the Australian Open 2013.

Getting through a somewhat tough five setter before the semi finals might even be quite helpful for the confidence and mental readiness in the important matches if you can get through the next match(es) without too much effort.

 

[nehmeth]

Then Wimbledon came. Again in front of a home crowd, Murray was fortunate to have Djokovic in the final. Djokovic had just fought through an incredible 5-set match with del Potro and had to be feeling the effects of it. Murray himself had come from two sets down to escape Fernando Verdasco so it's difficult to see how he was feeling by the time of the final. But he was able to ride an emotional wave to the title.

The deciding factor in that Wimbledon was, IMO that Djokovic was spent after his SF by the time the final came along, while Andy's 5 setter against Verdasco was a QF, and his SF against Janowicz did not take a lot out of him. Andy had time to recover, Nole not so much.
Other than that, this was a great post kirijax

Thanks nehmeth. I kind of implied that when I was writing but didn't stat it clearly. Murray did have more time than recover from his epic match with Verdasco, while Djokovic had less time to bounce back from his classic with del Potro. Thanks for pointing that out.

:snicker I know we both love Nole, but his name is herios.

 

[Kirijax]

The deciding factor in that Wimbledon was, IMO that Djokovic was spent after his SF by the time the final came along, while Andy's 5 setter against Verdasco was a QF, and his SF against Janowicz did not take a lot out of him. Andy had time to recover, Nole not so much.
Other than that, this was a great post kirijax

Thanks nehmeth. I kind of implied that when I was writing but didn't stat it clearly. Murray did have more time than recover from his epic match with Verdasco, while Djokovic had less time to bounce back from his classic with del Potro. Thanks for pointing that out.

:snicker I know we both love Nole, but his name is herios.

LOL Chalk that one up as a 5 am Wimbledon fatigue faux pas. :cover:snicker

 

[Carol]

The most incredible thing is that not too long ego he had better H2H than Roger and Novak
What happen later? well, I think his back injury given him too much trouble which made him to give a step back. After the surgery it took him time to start to play well again but little by little he improved a lot
Sincerely I was expecting to see him in the Wimbedon final and surprisely he couldn't made it. He has enough game to play against to anyone and to win as he has showed it before so I can't finish to understand why he is so irregular after to change coaches and been healthier

 

[jhar26]

A lot will also depend on what Murray achieves from now on. If he wins another couple of majors, some more masters 1000's and/or a YEC and makes it to number one at some point like the others did history will in retrospect accept him as one of the big four of this era. One could argue that it wouldn't count since the big four thing has lost some of it's lustre with Nadal struggling and others like Wawrinka and Cilic getting into the mix, but that's no different than Federer and Nadal winning slams and dominating before Djokovic and to a lesser degree Murray made their move. But he'll always be regarded as the fourth best player of this era. Whether that makes him one of the big four or the best of the rest hardly matters. For me personally he's one of the big four because he's one of the four that I always regarded as the legitimate contenders for the biggest titles. Besides Federer, Nadal and Djokovic it was always Murray's name that came to my mind - not Berdych' or Tsonga's.

Yes, I hear you and agree. He is the Guillermo Vilas of his era. Vilas was a borderline great player who just happened to peak alongside better players in Jimmy Connors and Bjorn Borg, and then McEnroe and Lendl a bit as well. As with Vilas, history might not remember how good Murray was IF he doesn't win several more Slams. The eye of history tends to overemphasize Slams and miss nuances - like consistency, how deep a player goes into Slams, other tournaments, rankings, etc. For instance, on first blush one might think that Jan Kodes was a better player than Ilie Nastase, given that Kodes won 3 Slams to Nastase's 2. But Nastase won 58 titles to Kodes' 11, and Nastase also won 4 Tour Finals and was year-end #1 in 1973. The point being, Nastase was a better player - perhaps much better.

In a similar sense, Murray and Wawrinka both have 2 Slams but Murray has had a much better career. The difference, I think, is that Stan has a much better "champion mentality" and may be a better player when playing at his absolute best.

That said, I think Murray will win at least win another Slam or two.

Definitely true. You sometimes get the impression that a tennis season consists of just two months of play with anything other than slams being treated by fans and the media as little more than glorified exho's. It's not so much that slams are overvalued but more that everything else is undervalued. Plus slam records themselves can be deceiving as well. "Djokovic already has more slam titles than Connors and McEnroe!" Well, yes. But Connors skipped the French during much of his his prime and only played the Australian twice if I remember correctly. Mac didn't play the Australian in his prime either. The oldies weren't as obsessed by their slam total as players became since the mid-80's. Most would only take the journey to Australia if they would have won the other three first to complete the calender year grand slam.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

for the first time since 2008 I don't have a feeling that murray can grab a few weeks as world no1.

he blew his big chance in autumn of 2012 when after reaching wimb final winning OLympicgold and usopen murray lost that epic shanghai final to djokoovic and then didn't win wtf. and lost ao final to djokovic..in 2013 (feathergate).

i've been holding off waiting to see what happened after his back op, but now djokovic is so far out in front and so good I just don't see murray being world no1 now, plus he hasn't sorted out his essence-of-Sabatini 2nd serve. what with all that and being 28yrs old already.

naah. that hedgehog has ambled off into the sunset.

 

[Fiero425]

For the first time since 2008 I don't have a feeling that Murray can grab a few weeks as world no. 1.

He blew his big chance in autumn of 2012 when after reaching Wimb final, winning Olympic gold, and US Open, Murray lost that epic Shanghai final to Djokoovic and then didn't win WTF; and lost AO final to Djokovic..in 2013 (feathergate).

i've been holding off waiting to see what happened after his back op, but now Djokovic is so far out in front and so good I just don't see Murray being world no. 1 now, plus he hasn't sorted out his essence-of-Sabatini 2nd serve. what with all that and being 28 yrs old already.

naah. that hedgehog has ambled off into the sunset.

Thank goodness! It would have only lasted a short time like for Becker or Muster; a 2nd rate #1! :nono :angel: As long as he has these obvious weakness, he'll be relegated to the "B" team IMO! :angel:

 

[Kirijax]

For the first time since 2008 I don't have a feeling that Murray can grab a few weeks as world no. 1.

He blew his big chance in autumn of 2012 when after reaching Wimb final, winning Olympic gold, and US Open, Murray lost that epic Shanghai final to Djokoovic and then didn't win WTF; and lost AO final to Djokovic..in 2013 (feathergate).

i've been holding off waiting to see what happened after his back op, but now Djokovic is so far out in front and so good I just don't see Murray being world no. 1 now, plus he hasn't sorted out his essence-of-Sabatini 2nd serve. what with all that and being 28 yrs old already.

naah. that hedgehog has ambled off into the sunset.

Thank goodness! It would have only lasted a short time like for Becker or Muster; a 2nd rate #1! :nono :angel: As long as he has these obvious weakness, he'll be relegated to the "B" team IMO! :angel:

So...is it better to be a great No. 2 than a poor No. 1?

Me no tink so.

 

[Borehamwood]

Have never understood Murray's approach to playing the Big 3. He is bigger and stronger than all of them. Yet, he continues to accept being dictated to. There is no technical reason for Murray to do this, it's psychological. Having played like this for so long, i think it will be too hard for him to change his approach, at least for any extended length of time in a match. Lendl did have Murray headed in that direction, but it didn't stick after they parted ways. Not sure what Mauresmo has him doing, other than going bigger on the 2nd serve. And that serve (1st & 2nd) is not nearly what it could and should be. Why Murray waited so long to make the change to his 2nd serve is puzzling. He's still technically all over the place, tends to sway into it instead of popping with his legs. These are things that could, and were, being said about Novak's game before he made the changes 5 years ago. What the heck has been holding Murray back from doing similar things?

 

[BratSrbin]

The most incredible thing is that not too long ego he had better H2H than Roger and Novak
What happen later? well, I think his back injury given him too much trouble which made him to give a step back. After the surgery it took him time to start to play well again but little by little he improved a lot
Sincerely I was expecting to see him in the Wimbedon final and surprisely he couldn't made it. He has enough game to play against to anyone and to win as he has showed it before so I can't finish to understand why he is so irregular after to change coaches and been healthier

Murray never had better H2H against No1e or was equal.

Year Event Winner
2015 Roland Garros Novak Djokovic 63 63 57 57 61
2015 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami Novak Djokovic 763 46 60
2015 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Indian Wells Novak Djokovic 62 63
2015 Australian Open Novak Djokovic 765 674 63 60
2014 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Paris Novak Djokovic 75 62
2014 Beijing Novak Djokovic 63 64
2014 US Open Novak Djokovic 761 671 62 64
2014 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami Novak Djokovic 75 63
2013 Wimbledon Andy Murray 64 75 64
2013 Australian Open Novak Djokovic 672 763 63 62
2012 Barclays ATP World Tour Finals Novak Djokovic 46 63 75
2012 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Shanghai Novak Djokovic 57 7611 63
2012 US Open Andy Murray 7610 75 26 36 62
2012 London Olympics Andy Murray 75 75
2012 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami Novak Djokovic 61 764
2012 Dubai Andy Murray 62 75
2012 Australian Open Novak Djokovic 63 36 674 61 75
2011 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Cincinnati Andy Murray 64 30 RET
2011 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Rome Novak Djokovic 61 36 762
2011 Australian Open Novak Djokovic 64 62 63
2009 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Miami Andy Murray 62 75
2008 ATP Masters Series Cincinnati Andy Murray 764 765
2008 ATP Masters Series Canada Andy Murray 63 763
2008 ATP Masters Series Monte Carlo Novak Djokovic 60 64
2007 ATP Masters Series Miami Novak Djokovic 61 60
2007 ATP Masters Series Indian Wells Novak Djokovic 62 63
2006 ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Madrid Novak Djokovic 16 75 63