2023 US Open SF: Djokovic vs. Shelton

[the AntiPusher]

I think when Kyrgios acts up, it’s his way of signalling unconsciously that he’s chickening out. All those flirty texts with Novak before the Wimbledon final last year were Kyrgios way of submitting to defeat before the match. He was trying to reduce the significance of the occasion to let himself down lightly…

Do we ever know if wacky Nicky is ever completely check in

 

[Kieran]

Missed this before writing my post. Yeah, I agree with your take re: Shelton. Again, contrast that with Alcaraz. I know they're individuals, but man does it make Americans look like tools.

It’s a modern show off Instagram mentality. Instead of focusing, he’s busy wheedling more from the crowd. Carlos is definitely one focussed on winning, but I can’t help but feel a difference between him and Rafa is that Rafa always entered a match as if he’s the underdog. No matter who he plays, he fights like he might lose. I remember way back in the old millennium, where we left the Titanic, the discovery of new continents, and Leeds United’s prospects of winning the league, Larry Holmes fought Gerry Cooney, the Great White Hope.

Holmes was a good champ, by no means on a par with the greatest, but he was far better than Cooney. Still and all, it seemed he had a man in his corner whose sole task was simply to chastise him by repeating, “Don’t let that bum take away your title.”

No matter how well Larry was doing, this voice was always in his ear: you’re facing a bum and you need to do better or he’s taking your title. I get the feeling Carlos expected to beat Medvedev, and he became impatient and a little panicked by how difficult it was. I get the feeling he expected to face Novak on Sunday. If he’d had Larry Holmes cornerman with him since Zverev, he might have…

 

[Moxie]

It’s a modern show off Instagram mentality. Instead of focusing, he’s busy wheedling more from the crowd. Carlos is definitely one focussed on winning, but I can’t help but feel a difference between him and Rafa is that Rafa always entered a match as if he’s the underdog. No matter who he plays, he fights like he might lose. I remember way back in the old millennium, where we left the Titanic, the discovery of new continents, and Leeds United’s prospects of winning the league, Larry Holmes fought Gerry Cooney, the Great White Hope.

Holmes was a good champ, by no means on a par with the greatest, but he was far better than Cooney. Still and all, it seemed he had a man in his corner whose sole task was simply to chastise him by repeating, “Don’t let that bum take away your title.”

No matter how well Larry was doing, this voice was always in his ear: you’re facing a bum and you need to do better or he’s taking your title. I get the feeling Carlos expected to beat Medvedev, and he became impatient and a little panicked by how difficult it was. I get the feeling he expected to face Novak on Sunday. If he’d had Larry Holmes cornerman with him since Zverev, he might have…

I saw Carlos's post-match interview after Zverev, and they asked him about the potential final, v. Novak. He DID say they both had difficult semis still to play, but he also looked forward to it. Part of me gave him kudos for bravado, but part of me said, "NO...be like Rafa. Take it one match at a time." I think he looked ahead when he should have focused on the task at hand. I always felt that Novak did that, when he played Nishikori in the SF of the USO 2014. He put himself in the final, mentally, before he'd fought the SF. Not to take away from Medvedev, who played one of his best matches, ever. But Charlie started out in control of it. He should have been ready for a big fight.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I saw Carlos's post-match interview after Zverev, and they asked him about the potential final, v. Novak. He DID say they both had difficult semis still to play, but he also looked forward to it. Part of me gave him kudos for bravado, but part of me said, "NO...be like Rafa. Take it one match at a time." I think he looked ahead when he should have focused on the task at hand. I always felt that Novak did that, when he played Nishikori in the SF of the USO 2014. He put himself in the final, mentally, before he'd fought the SF. Not to take away from Medvedev, who played one of his best matches, ever. But Charlie started out in control of it. He should have been ready for a big fight.

I dont know if you are aware Charly has withdrawn from Spain DC team, for next week, I feel that is a good choice, to me he needs a rest.

 

[El Dude]

It’s a modern show off Instagram mentality. Instead of focusing, he’s busy wheedling more from the crowd. Carlos is definitely one focussed on winning, but I can’t help but feel a difference between him and Rafa is that Rafa always entered a match as if he’s the underdog. No matter who he plays, he fights like he might lose. I remember way back in the old millennium, where we left the Titanic, the discovery of new continents, and Leeds United’s prospects of winning the league, Larry Holmes fought Gerry Cooney, the Great White Hope.

Holmes was a good champ, by no means on a par with the greatest, but he was far better than Cooney. Still and all, it seemed he had a man in his corner whose sole task was simply to chastise him by repeating, “Don’t let that bum take away your title.”

No matter how well Larry was doing, this voice was always in his ear: you’re facing a bum and you need to do better or he’s taking your title. I get the feeling Carlos expected to beat Medvedev, and he became impatient and a little panicked by how difficult it was. I get the feeling he expected to face Novak on Sunday. If he’d had Larry Holmes cornerman with him since Zverev, he might have…

Yeah, I can see that and agree with this difference, which is why I noted that Carlos seemed shell-shocked, as if he couldn't imagine losing. I see this as a big moment for him - one he needs to learn from. Based on what he said, I think he gets that intellectually, at least.

Rafa was so weird, in that regard. He always seemed surprised that he won, especially vs. Roger - but certainly even in recent years against other opponents. I've always admired him for that, if also often thought, "Come on Rafa, you've got to know by now how good you are."

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, I can see that and agree with this difference, which is why I noted that Carlos seemed shell-shocked, as if he couldn't imagine losing. I see this as a big moment for him - one he needs to learn from. Based on what he said, I think he gets that intellectually, at least.

Rafa was so weird, in that regard. He always seemed surprised that he won, especially vs. Roger - but certainly even in recent years against other opponents. I've always admired him for that, if also often thought, "Come on Rafa, you've got to know by now how good you are."

I think we can blame uncle Toni for that. It was maybe his one mistake, but he always talked up both Novak and Roger to Rafa, giving him the impression he was inferior. And that stayed with him. I think he did that so Rafa would fight harder, but I think it went too far.

I remember when Sampras was in the doldrums just before he won his last USO he re-hired Paul Annacone, who was amazed that Pete was struggling with confidence. Annacone told him, ‘just remember when you step out there to play, you're Pete Sampras, and the other guy isn’t!’

I think if Rafa had been inflamed with a bit of that belief he’d have done a lot better, even given how amazing he’s been…

 

[atttomole]

I think Tony did a good job with Nadal. Nadal’s game was limited and Tony made him think he wasn’t good enough. And look at the results; Nadal became one of the best players at the net, his serve improved.. His drop shots became Federer-like.

 

[Kieran]

I think Tony did a good job with Nadal. Nadal’s game was limited and Tony made him think he wasn’t good enough. And look at the results; Nadal became one of the best players at the net, his serve improved.. His drop shots became Federer-like.

Yeah he did all that but you can overdo aspects of making somebody feel they’re not good enough. Toni is a tennis coaching genius but that’s his blind spot…

 

[El Dude]

I think we can blame uncle Toni for that. It was maybe his one mistake, but he always talked up both Novak and Roger to Rafa, giving him the impression he was inferior. And that stayed with him. I think he did that so Rafa would fight harder, but I think it went too far.

I remember when Sampras was in the doldrums just before he won his last USO he re-hired Paul Annacone, who was amazed that Pete was struggling with confidence. Annacone told him, ‘just remember when you step out there to play, you're Pete Sampras, and the other guy isn’t!’

I think if Rafa had been inflamed with a bit of that belief he’d have done a lot better, even given how amazing he’s been…

I can't really go with you on this hypothetical, Kieran, as the results speak for themselves. I mean, we could also imagine Rafa being more confident and losing because of it. I tend to see his mentality as being a major component of his success - that feeling inferior to Roger early on drove him to the height he reached; similar to Novak later on. I think whatever Toni instilled in him worked out just fine. I know that you as a Rafa devotee like to imagine What If scenarios in which he "should have" won 30 Slams, but we could do this for pretty much every player.

It is sort of like time travel. We can imagine going back in the past and correcting our seeming errors, but we have no idea how it would effect other things.

 

[Kieran]

I can't really go with you on this hypothetical, Kieran, as the results speak for themselves. I mean, we could also imagine Rafa being more confident and losing because of it. I tend to see his mentality as being a major component of his success - that feeling inferior to Roger early on drove him to the height he reached; similar to Novak later on. I think whatever Toni instilled in him worked out just fine. I know that you as a Rafa devotee like to imagine What If scenarios in which he "should have" won 30 Slams, but we could do this for pretty much every player.

It is sort of like time travel. We can imagine going back in the past and correcting our seeming errors, but we have no idea how it would effect other things.

I think we can only imagine the what if with Rafa because he’s actually observably missed so many slams through injury.

But I’m not saying he’s a basket case shredded with nerves. I believe Toni himself says somewhere that he wishes he’d been less hard on Rafa. Toni also had said that Novak is more talented that Rafa. I’d look that up but I’m on my holidays waiting for the missus to get ready to go out. But you’re right too, we don’t know if Rafa was cocky if he’d do worse. But Rafa would never be cocky. He could, at times, have been more confident though…

 

[Nadalfan2013]

It's disgusting and very immature how Djokovic imitated Shelton with the celebration. Even at nearly 40 years old Djokovic is still as arrogant and immature as ever.

And for everyone thinking it's funny and cute, how would you feel if Medvedev after beating Djokovic today rubs it in and imitates Djokovic by greeting the crowd with the boob throw celebration? Would you find it nice and cute? No, Djokovic and his fans wouldn't find it funny and they would complain.

 

[atttomole]

I think we can blame uncle Toni for that. It was maybe his one mistake, but he always talked up both Novak and Roger to Rafa, giving him the impression he was inferior. And that stayed with him. I think he did that so Rafa would fight harder, but I think it went too far.

I remember when Sampras was in the doldrums just before he won his last USO he re-hired Paul Annacone, who was amazed that Pete was struggling with confidence. Annacone told him, ‘just remember when you step out there to play, you're Pete Sampras, and the other guy isn’t!’

I think if Rafa had been inflamed with a bit of that belief he’d have done a lot better, even given how amazing he’s been…

I know you will never forget to include the great Pete Sampras in discussions. He was great, but just like Nadal his game was limited, the opposite way. He could have done better on slow surfaces, while Nadal actually improved on faster surfaces, in part because of uncle Tony. Without uncle Tony, I think Nadal would have remained largely a clay courter, and still would have had an amazing career with at least 14 RGs. In some ways, Nadal has been punching above his weight, which is truly commendable.

 

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[Fiero425]

It's disgusting and very immature how Djokovic imitated Shelton with the celebration. Even at nearly 40 years old Djokovic is still as arrogant and immature as ever.

And for everyone thinking it's funny and cute, how would you feel if Medvedev after beating Djokovic today rubs it in and imitates Djokovic by greeting the crowd with the boob throw celebration? Would you find it nice and cute? No, Djokovic and his fans wouldn't find it funny and they would complain.

That would never happen as you well know! Daniil reveres Novak & has stated more than a few times that "he's the GOAT!" I remember him musing about how Djokovic spoke to him very early on in his career, asking about his family, seeming to really care! Find another anecdote!

 

[Nadalfan2013]

That would never happen as you well know! Daniil reveres Novak & has stated more than a few times that "he's the GOAT!" I remember him musing about how Djokovic spoke to him very early on in his career, asking about his family, seeming to really care! Find another anecdote!

It has nothing to do with revering or liking someone. Shelton has never dissed Djokovic to merit such an arrogant, smug and disrespectful imitation after the win. Djokovic and his fans would have been FURIOUS if someone did this to you, but here you are finding an excuse and finding it amusing when your guy did. Find another anecdote. Let's go Meddy, trash Pushovic once more and celebrate with the boob throw in his face. Maybe Djokovic and his fans will finally get how the imitation their guy did in the SF was inappropriate and smug behaviour.

 

[Fiero425]

It has nothing to do with revering or liking someone. Shelton has never dissed Djokovic to merit such an arrogant, smug and disrespectful imitation after the win. Djokovic and his fans would have been FURIOUS if someone did this to you, but here you are finding an excuse and finding it amusing when your guy did. Find another anecdote. Let's go Meddy, trash Pushovic once more and celebrate with the boob throw in his face. Maybe Djokovic and his fans will finally get how the imitation their guy did in the SF was inappropriate and smug behaviour.

Well I was going to let this pass, but since your rant continues, SHELTON deserved anything & everything he got from Novak! This kid showed disrespect showboating over a few winners! He only got back what he delivered; Novak admitting it in the player's press conference!

 

[tented]

Well I was going to let this pass, but since your rant continues, SHELTON deserved anything & everything he got from Novak! This kid showed disrespect showboating over a few winners! He only got back what he delivered; Novak admitting it in the player's press conference!

Two wrongs make a right. Got it.

 

[Kieran]

I know you will never forget to include the great Pete Sampras in discussions. He was great, but just like Nadal his game was limited, the opposite way. He could have done better on slow surfaces, while Nadal actually improved on faster surfaces, in part because of uncle Tony. Without uncle Tony, I think Nadal would have remained largely a clay courter, and still would have had an amazing career with at least 14 RGs. In some ways, Nadal has been punching above his weight, which is truly commendable.

Of course, we can’t have a discussion about modern greats and forget Sampras. This was a man who achieved all the records he set himself. He finished his career with twice as many slams as his nearest rival. Every single season of his peak years, he finished as the world number one. A record six seasons in succession. Tennis was different then, but Pete was always best. And you know, if he played during the years of the Big 3, he’d be as great as any of them. He was an alpha predator. He didn’t take kindly to being second best…