2019 NBA Finals: Golden State vs. Toronto Raptors

[Federberg]

The guy is crazy sensitive especially in regards to his legacy and he feels under appreciated. I think he is clearly a better player than Curry but it will always be the latter'a franchise.

I think he was gone before the injury, and if the worry is about him getting a max...I highly doubt this injury affects that. Also, who knows if the team was pushing really hard for him to play and he didn't want to. I'm guessing it was completely mutual. He shouldn't have been cleared, I could tell you that before last night but obviously he was going to play down 3-1. That quarter may have saved the title for them.

ok I get what you're saying. I thought there was something I was missing given the conviction you and Kate both expressed. Of course it could all hang on if he felt pressured by the franchise, but it's just as possible that he might have insisted on playing. I just don't get why you both feel so sure that he might not change his mind. I mean.. .seeing how authentic the sympathy from his team mates and even Dub staff for his predicament that could easily sway someone who doesn't have some pathological insecurity. Let's face it... in 10yrs it's almost certain that an older more mature KD will look back and realise that leaving a place where he's almost guaranteed to accumulate rings was catastrophically stupid

 

[DarthFed]

ok I get what you're saying. I thought there was something I was missing given the conviction you and Kate both expressed. Of course it could all hang on if he felt pressured by the franchise, but it's just as possible that he might have insisted on playing. I just don't get why you both feel so sure that he might not change his mind. I mean.. .seeing how authentic the sympathy from his team mates and even Dub staff for his predicament that could easily sway someone who doesn't have some pathological insecurity. Let's face it... in 10yrs it's almost certain that an older more mature KD will look back and realise that leaving a place where he's almost guaranteed to accumulate rings was catastrophically stupid

The value of the rings is kind of diluted though especially for him and even for Steph if the whole team stays together. They are expected to win with the dream team.

We all know how insecure KD is, I'd be extremely surprised if he doesn't leave regardless of the injury. He wants to climb the all-time great ladder which probably contributed to him wanting to play here even when he probably realized it was risky. And the thing is I think he did prove quite a bit. This was probably a 5 game win for Warriors with him (even with Klay out 1 game) and a 5 game series loss for Warriors if he didn't play last night

 

[kskate2]

He had no business in that game last night. He didn't start practicing until Sun. If I was KD I wouldn't want to play for an org that cleared me to play when I wasn't even ready to practice yet (no matter what the player says). Players will say anything to get in the game. He should have been told no, period. It's not like they don't have other talented players. It shows how much they really care about his health and his career.

 

[DarthFed]

He had no business in that game last night. He didn't start practicing until Sun. If I was KD I wouldn't want to play for an org that cleared me to play when I wasn't even ready to practice yet (no matter what the player says). Players will say anything to get in the game. He should have been told no, period. It's not like they don't have other talented players. It shows how much they really care about his health and his career.

KS I wouldn't attack GSW over this. It was a unique situation and there isn't an organization that would have done a thing differently given the situation. Obviously he wasn't ready and they knew it, but he's gone after this and your team is getting taken to the cleaners and you have maybe the best player in the world that you can put in. Why would they care about his long-term health?

And obviously it took both sides to agree, no one held a gun to KD's head here.

 

[Federberg]

I'm just stunned at the refusal to assign any responsibility to KD. He was a part of the decision, and no doubt he had his own doctors and entourage involved in the process. In fact if the Warriors are to blame for anything it's more likely that they were only to happy to let him go with his impulses. Given his sensitivities it was surely intolerable for him to see all the comments about "the team being better without him" and then the fact that Iggy and Klay were playing injured probably didn't help either.

 

[DarthFed]

FB, I know you watch Bball and football and I'm sure you are therefore familiar with "non-contact" leg and knee injuries where the player isn't hit and doesn't necessarily land awkwardly. When these non-contact injuries happen it is always serious. If you think for a second that the Warriors thought he was healthy enough to play you are kidding yourself here. As I mentioned above the Warriors were in a unique situation where the player in question is 99% out the door next season. So why would they value his health? If KD was under contract I'm not sure they'd have played him, but they may have still been willing to risk it even in that situation. The way it played out it was a nobrainer for GSW to play him. KD would not have been fully healthy for at least another few months as again this was non-contact. I knew that he wouldn't be close to healthy but as long as he didn't re-injure himself he'd still be very impactful.

And yes KD is also to blame, he of course had to OK it and he knew the risks. I obviously feel bad for him suffering a serious injury but it's not exactly bad luck. But do you really believe GSW thought he was healthy...come on man, you know better than that

 

[Federberg]

FB, I know you watch Bball and football and I'm sure you are therefore familiar with "non-contact" leg and knee injuries where the player isn't hit and doesn't necessarily land awkwardly. When these non-contact injuries happen it is always serious. If you think for a second that the Warriors thought he was healthy enough to play you are kidding yourself here. As I mentioned above the Warriors were in a unique situation where the player in question is 99% out the door next season. So why would they value his health? If KD was under contract I'm not sure they'd have played him, but they may have still been willing to risk it even in that situation. The way it played out it was a nobrainer for GSW to play him. KD would not have been fully healthy for at least another few months as again this was non-contact. I knew that he wouldn't be close to healthy but as long as he didn't re-injure himself he'd still be very impactful.

And yes KD is also to blame, he of course had to OK it and he knew the risks. I obviously feel bad for him suffering a serious injury but it's not exactly bad luck. But do you really believe GSW thought he was healthy...come on man, you know better than that

Yup, I'm fully aware

What amuses me about these types of discussions is the fact that KD could just as easily trigger a one year payment of $31m while he just recuperates. At least that's my understanding. I don't know any business, no matter how large, that is happy to just sink that sort of money without any guarantee that they will be able to lock the player in for future years. Please correct me if I've got his options wrong. If I'm right then it's absurd - in the real world - to make the sort of accusations that are being levelled against GSW. But that wasn't really my point. It's not about whether GSW thought he was healthy. I contend that KD is a superstar with his own agency. The man is a walking Fortune 500 enterprise in his own right, but people act like he's some mindless automaton. The idea that he is dumb enough (consider the fact that he doesn't need to make these decisions by himself, his agent and personal doctors and entourage were an available resource for him) to have just gone along with what the Dubs wanted without his own desires having primacy make no sense at all... in the real world.

 

[DarthFed]

Yup, I'm fully aware

What amuses me about these types of discussions is the fact that KD could just as easily trigger a one year payment of $31m while he just recuperates. At least that's my understanding. I don't know any business, no matter how large, that is happy to just sink that sort of money without any guarantee that they will be able to lock the player in for future years. Please correct me if I've got his options wrong. If I'm right then it's absurd - in the real world - to make the sort of accusations that are being levelled against GSW. But that wasn't really my point. It's not about whether GSW thought he was healthy. I contend that KD is a superstar with his own agency. The man is a walking Fortune 500 enterprise in his own right, but people act like he's some mindless automaton. The idea that he is dumb enough (consider the fact that he doesn't need to make these decisions by himself, his agent and personal doctors and entourage were an available resource for him) to have just gone along with what the Dubs wanted without his own desires having primacy make no sense at all... in the real world.

You seem to think he's going to stay in GSW. I find that highly unlikely. He is ALL about legacy and he hates the narrative that these rings don't build him up that much because the team is so good. He also of course has to hate the fact that the GSW fans are never going to love him the same way they love Steph. I will eat my words in a major way but everyone and their mother around here thinks he is gone regardless of injury.

I will say this though, if any team is going to offer him the one year deal it'd be GSW with the thought being they will be playing next April and May for sure even without him. So maybe he heals enough to come back for the playoffs. I still don't think he will go that route but it is worth noting that GSW is probably the one team in the league that would offer that aside from maybe my Bucks (if they have the space). But I do think he will still get close to a max contract, just with way less guaranteed. Maybe someone will only give him 3 years with a team option the 3rd year in case he never truly recovers.

The thing about "Warriors doctors vs KD's personal team" is that the team has to clear him. That is a simple fact with any injury. Maybe KD pushed them really hard to play but the team doctors still had to "clear" him knowing he wasn't close to healthy and was at a major risk for making it way worse.

But I don't like how people are attacking the Warriors for this. They were getting destroyed and this is the Finals. Everyone knew they'd bring him back if they were in trouble. KD is of course also to blame here. People probably feel too sorry for him right now to put some blame on him too.

 

[Federberg]

You seem to think he's going to stay in GSW. I find that highly unlikely. He is ALL about legacy and he hates the narrative that these rings don't build him up that much because the team is so good. He also of course has to hate the fact that the GSW fans are never going to love him the same way they love Steph. I will eat my words in a major way but everyone and their mother around here thinks he is gone regardless of injury.

I will say this though, if any team is going to offer him the one year deal it'd be GSW with the thought being they will be playing next April and May for sure even without him. So maybe he heals enough to come back for the playoffs. I still don't think he will go that route but it is worth noting that GSW is probably the one team in the league that would offer that aside from maybe my Bucks (if they have the space). But I do think he will still get close to a max contract, just with way less guaranteed. Maybe someone will only give him 3 years with a team option the 3rd year in case he never truly recovers.

The thing about "Warriors doctors vs KD's personal team" is that the team has to clear him. That is a simple fact with any injury. Maybe KD pushed them really hard to play but the team doctors still had to "clear" him knowing he wasn't close to healthy and was at a major risk for making it way worse.

But I don't like how people are attacking the Warriors for this. They were getting destroyed and this is the Finals. Everyone knew they'd bring him back if they were in trouble. KD is of course also to blame here. People probably feel too sorry for him right now to put some blame on him too.

You’ve got me all wrong. I think he’s foolish to leave. Like you I think it’s inevitable he leaves

 

[kskate2]

KS I wouldn't attack GSW over this. It was a unique situation and there isn't an organization that would have done a thing differently given the situation. Obviously he wasn't ready and they knew it, but he's gone after this and your team is getting taken to the cleaners and you have maybe the best player in the world that you can put in. Why would they care about his long-term health?

And obviously it took both sides to agree, no one held a gun to KD's head here.

This is where we disagree. Obviously it took both parties to agree but like you said mgmt had to know he wasn’t ready. And in that instance the team bears the lion’s share of responsibility. I know it’s the finals, but again they have Allstar players on their team.


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[DarthFed]

This is where we disagree. Obviously it took both parties to agree but like you said mgmt had to know he wasn’t ready. And in that instance the team bears the lion’s share of responsibility. I know it’s the finals, but again they have Allstar players on their team.


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Convince me that Golden State should value Durant's health over winning another title...I don't know what team would have done differently.

 

[Federberg]

This is where we disagree. Obviously it took both parties to agree but like you said mgmt had to know he wasn’t ready. And in that instance the team bears the lion’s share of responsibility. I know it’s the finals, but again they have Allstar players on their team.


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I don't get it.

(1) GSW doctors thought he was ok to play.
(2) KD's doctors thought he was ok to play.
(3) KD wanted to play
(4) GSW wanted him to play

Why is the team any more responsible than the player? This is a league where the superstars have agency. They can't be bullied by teams. To try to take that away from him is disrespectful to his own autonomy. Sure we can say that the team put pressure on him, but all the evidence has been that if any outside agent should be blamed it's punditry and social media. And that's really down to KD allowing himself to be swayed by that...

 

[DarthFed]

I don't get it.

(1) GSW doctors thought he was ok to play.
(2) KD's doctors thought he was ok to play.
(3) KD wanted to play
(4) GSW wanted him to play

Why is the team any more responsible than the player? This is a league where the superstars have agency. They can't be bullied by teams. To try to take that away from him is disrespectful to his own autonomy. Sure we can say that the team put pressure on him, but all the evidence has been that if any outside agent should be blamed it's punditry and social media. And that's really down to KD allowing himself to be swayed by that...

It comes down to whether or not you actually believe they thought he was ok to play. I don't think any party (1-3) thought he was anywhere near healthy enough to play under normal circumstances but these obviously were not normal circumstances. NBA finals and the team was getting clobbered without him, all parties involved were willing to take the risks. I laid out why it was a nobrainer for GSW. If anyone should be accused of stupidity here it is Durant.

 

[Federberg]

It comes down to whether or not you actually believe they thought he was ok to play. I don't think any party (1-3) thought he was anywhere near healthy enough to play under normal circumstances but these obviously were not normal circumstances. NBA finals and the team was getting clobbered without him, all parties involved were willing to take the risks. I laid out why it was a nobrainer for GSW. If anyone should be accused of stupidity here it is Durant.

I'm with you there. I just don't get the view point that he's some ignorant scrub that isn't being supplied with the best risk assessment possible from his own personal team paid for with his $300m fortune. Let's not disrespect him. We can speculate about GSW's motives all we want, but the final decision comes down to KD... and the K doesn't stand for Kunta Kinte. Let's get that right...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I would really be happy if we can close it out tonight . No need for a game 7

 

[kskate2]

Convince me that Golden State should value Durant's health over winning another title...I don't know what team would have done differently.

I can't convince you. You have your view I have mine. The way I see it, it's like workers comp. If you get seriously hurt at work you're not allowed to come back to work until you're not a liability to the company or any of its employees (yes I understand this is sports, but to me the principal is the same)

 

[kskate2]

I don't get it.

(1) GSW doctors thought he was ok to play.
(2) KD's doctors thought he was ok to play.
(3) KD wanted to play
(4) GSW wanted him to play

Why is the team any more responsible than the player? This is a league where the superstars have agency. They can't be bullied by teams. To try to take that away from him is disrespectful to his own autonomy. Sure we can say that the team put pressure on him, but all the evidence has been that if any outside agent should be blamed it's punditry and social media. And that's really down to KD allowing himself to be swayed by that...

Again, we don't have to agree here. I don't believe the doctors thought he was OK to play. The telltale sign is that he didn't start practicing until the day before. If he was really healthy enough to play, he would have started practicing well before G5.

 

[kskate2]

It comes down to whether or not you actually believe they thought he was ok to play. I don't think any party (1-3) thought he was anywhere near healthy enough to play under normal circumstances but these obviously were not normal circumstances. NBA finals and the team was getting clobbered without him, all parties involved were willing to take the risks. I laid out why it was a nobrainer for GSW. If anyone should be accused of stupidity here it is Durant.

No, I don't believe they thought he was OK to play. You're saying under normal circumstances he wouldn't have been out there and my argument is normal or not, he shouldn't be out there. I don't give a rip about it being the finals. He was no where near ready. In my eyes there's plenty of stupidity to go around.

 

[kskate2]

I'm with you there. I just don't get the view point that he's some ignorant scrub that isn't being supplied with the best risk assessment possible from his own personal team paid for with his $300m fortune. Let's not disrespect him. We can speculate about GSW's motives all we want, but the final decision comes down to KD... and the K doesn't stand for Kunta Kinte. Let's get that right...

Who on this board said he was an ignorant scrub?

 

[kskate2]

I would really be happy if we can close it out tonight . No need for a game 7

I have to be honest Murat. I have about 2% belief they will close it out tonight.