2019 Men's Wimbledon Championships

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Federberg

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Federer fans want their guy to win "his" tournament and of all the majors that Nadal can win, Wimbledon is the one they want him to win the least.
for my part the slam I most want Rafa not to win is RG first(most psychologically damaging) and the AO (can't have him doing the double slam first of the big 3!) next. Rafa winning Wimbledon again is just another indictment of surface homogeneity in my head! :lol6:
 

Ricardo

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Again, not one argument. Not a single one.

And I haven't "proven" anything. Talent is not black and white at that level. But I have at least attempted to back my argument up. Something you're literally unable to do aside for "the pros said so." So since this is a tennis forum, and not somewhere to float tennis CV's and credibility, I ask you for the sake of conversation, what about Kyrgios do you think makes him such a great talent, and how are the deficiencies in his game not proof of the opposite?
you are just stuttering, what single 'argument' can prove Nick's talent? or lack of? it's absolutely nothing to do with what you think are the deficiencies of his game. I'll repeat for you again, it's a different concept to talent. If I sink a level or two and attempt to put it in a low level thinking description, i'll just say this...…..Nick finds a way to lift his overall level that's enough to beat or come close to match the best players, most of the time, and the same can't be said of almost all the other players....it's irrelevant what you think of his serve, fh or bh, or even his mental, and certainly nothing to do with how he fares against lesser players in early rounds, in which he would continue to either not show up or blow up in future as well.

So yes, the judgement from those who know him the best, have played him, has to be the strongest indicator of his talent level. Since it can't be measured in absolute terms, your beloved 'argument' of his fh, bh, accomplishment, all that is bullshit. You can try and refute when one says so, but not a group of them. In that case, my same question for you...….what makes you think you know his talent better than those who played tennis all their life, have studied Nick professionally and played him in real matches?

Answer that question before you talk about your worthless argument.
 

brokenshoelace

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you are just stuttering, what single 'argument' can prove Nick's talent? or lack of? it's absolutely nothing to do with what you think are the deficiencies of his game. I'll repeat for you again, it's a different concept to talent. If I sink a level or two and attempt to put it in a low level thinking description, i'll just say this...…..Nick finds a way to lift his overall level that's enough to beat or come close to match the best players, most of the time, and the same can't be said of almost all the other players....it's irrelevant what you think of his serve, fh or bh, or even his mental, and certainly nothing to do with how he fares against lesser players in early rounds, in which he would continue to either not show up or blow up in future as well.

So yes, the judgement from those who know him the best, have played him, has to be the strongest indicator of his talent level. Since it can't be measured in absolute terms, your beloved 'argument' of his fh, bh, accomplishment, all that is bullshit. You can try and refute when one says so, but not a group of them. In that case, my same question for you...….what makes you think you know his talent better than those who played tennis all their life, have studied Nick professionally and played him in real matches?

Answer that question before you talk about your worthless argument.

So Nick's proof of talent is he can lift his level to compete, and only occasional beat, the top 3 players in the world, despite his inability to lift his level to beat the other 2023929282727 players. Awesome.
 

britbox

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Funny thing is change a few swing points their 2014 tie breakers, and we'd be talking about Nick being the guy who gave Nadal a tough fight once, and got a few decent wins over the top guys in non majors, rather than this supposed mercurial talent, and that was a match where he literally produced his best tennis ever.

Nick's career isn't defined by 8-9 matches against the top guys. And to ignore 16 consecutive losses in the 4th round or more often, prior, and blame it on his moodiness/laziness/whatever, would be pretty rich.

Well, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before the match you gave 55/45 odds in Rafa's favour... Why so close? One of the greatest of all time vs a guy with bush league shots? That's the point with what a difference a day makes with commentary... or even a few points in a couple of tiebreaks.

Most people looked at this as a dangerous match for Rafa on this surface, and for good reason. I'm not bigging Kyrgios up here, he's got a lot of shortcomings, but he's also a big match player. ALL the top active guys recognise this. We're not talking commentators... we're talking peers.

Like I said initially, "technically superior" players to Kyrgios like the Nishikoris or Goffins of this world would have been a shoe-in for Nadal - yet I'm certain he'd rather have seen them than Kyrgios on the other side of the net.

All academic now... it's done.
 
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imjimmy

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Good post for the most part but I can't help but laugh at the notion that Roger benefitted from slowing surfaces. It is a pretty narrow way of thinking because pretty much everything about his game is suited to fast courts. I also think that no matter what the surfaces were like now you'd have the vast majority of the tour as baseliners because of string technology making it tough to live at net even at the few remaining fast events on tour. BS was arguing that it helped him a lot against big servers/hitters. I find that to be debatable but even if that's the case then we have to admit it clearly hurts him against Nadal, Djoker, Murray and probably quite a few other good baseliners. So in essence it's like getting a 1% raise in a time of 10% inflation. I think Roger would prefer to have the edge vs the capable baseliners rather than one-dimensional trees.

I think it's arguable that Roger may have benefitted from homogeneity of the courts on a week-to-week basis since it makes for less adjustments tournament to tournament. Note that that relates more to the "other tournaments". Majors are different since they are prepping more for those events, and are best of 5. If the majors didn't slow down he'd have won more, particularly Wimbledon. Saying he's benefitted from slower and higher bouncing grass just pisses in the face of common sense. Roger is a dismal 16-7 since 2008 in the QF, SF and final, and that of course is when the conditions get even slower and higher. Yeah I know the competition is tougher those rounds too but we are talking the grass court GOAT barely winning 2 of 3 in later rounds of Wimbledon.

Kind of reminds me back in the day when Huntingyou would tell me Roger was as good on clay as he was on hardcourts :lulz1:

I do agree with most of what you wrote. My view is that Fed too has benefitted (a little) from slowing of the surfaces.
Of course not as much as Novak and Nadal. And yes it has also hurt him especially vs Novak - I'd say. (He was going to lose to Nadal anyway on clay, but potentially could have beaten Djokovic on fast grass).

Still, you are underestimating the effects of faster surfaces even in this era. S-V is not always needed for a big hitter to be lethal on fast surfaces. There were serves yesterday at 143 mph+ in Wimbledon. Nick hit a forehand at 115 mph+ (the one that he aimed at Nadal).
It doesn't matter what string technology you have, but if the surface is truly fast (like in the 90s) and someone is serving over 70% at 140 mph+ and hitting 100mph+ from both wings, they will take the racquet out of your hand. There is nothing you could do. It's like the year Krajicek won Wimbledon. The way he beat Pete is the one of the best power grass court matches I've ever seen.

I'm just saying that Fed is also very good defensively and exploiting the movement of big hitters. If the surfaces were truly fast, he would have done less of that. I'd venture that in such a case there would be slam winners outside of the big 3. And yeah more would come out of Novak/Nadal than out of Federer's slam tally. But tennis would definitely be more exciting.

Anyway, my overall point of the previous post was that I'm tired of people here saying that Nadal is some talentless hack. A working class fisherman who just relies on his physicality and speed to win matches. Sure, Federer is far more talented than Nadal and no one argues that. But most tennis pundits and experts still regard Nadal as an all time great and one of the most talented players to play the game.
 
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tented

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Anyway, my overall point of the previous post was that I'm tired of people here saying that Nadal is some talentless hack. A working class fisherman who just relies on his physicality and speed to win matches. Sure, Federer is far more talented than Nadal and no one argues that. But most tennis pundits and experts still regard Nadal as an all time great and one of the most talented players to play the game.

Even they have said as much about each other. It’s only certain fans who think otherwise.
 
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britbox

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I do agree with most of what you wrote. My view is that Fed too has benefitted (a little) from slowing of the surfaces.
Of course not as much as Novak and Nadal. And yes it has also hurt him especially vs Novak - I'd say. (He was going to lose to Nadal anyway on clay, but potentially could have beaten Djokovic on fast grass).

Still, you are underestimating the effects of faster surfaces even in this era. S-V is not always needed for a big hitter to be lethal on fast surfaces. There were serves yesterday at 143 mph+ in Wimbledon. Nick hit a forehand at 115 mph+ (the one that he aimed at Nadal).
It doesn't matter what string technology you have, but if the surface is truly fast (like in the 90s) and someone is serving over 70% at 140 mph+ and hitting 100mph+ from both wings, they will take the racquet out of your hand. There is nothing you could do. It's like the year Krajicek won Wimbledon. The way he beat Pete is the one of the best power grass court match I've ever seen.

I'm just saying that Fed is also very good defensively and exploiting the movement of big hitters. If the surfaces were truly fast, he would have done less of that. I'd venture that in such a case there would be slam winners outside of the big 3. And yeah more would come out of Novak/Nadal than out of Federer's slam tally. But tennis would definitely be more exciting.

Anyway, my overall point of the previous post was that I'm tired of people here saying that Nadal is some talentless hack. A working class fisherman who just relies on his physicality and speed to win matches. Sure, Federer is far more talented than Nadal and no one argues that. But most tennis pundits and experts still regard Nadal as an all time great and one of the most talented players to play the game.

I can't see the argument where Federer has benefited at all from slowing down surfaces. Care to expand?
 

tented

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Novak and Hurkacz in a second set tiebreak, after H failed to convert a couple of set points.
 

Federberg

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I do agree with most of what you wrote. My view is that Fed too has benefitted (a little) from slowing of the surfaces.
Of course not as much as Novak and Nadal. And yes it has also hurt him especially vs Novak - I'd say. (He was going to lose to Nadal anyway on clay, but potentially could have beaten Djokovic on fast grass).

Still, you are underestimating the effects of faster surfaces even in this era. S-V is not always needed for a big hitter to be lethal on fast surfaces. There were serves yesterday at 143 mph+ in Wimbledon. Nick hit a forehand at 115 mph+ (the one that he aimed at Nadal).
It doesn't matter what string technology you have, but if the surface is truly fast (like in the 90s) and someone is serving over 70% at 140 mph+ and hitting 100mph+ from both wings, they will take the racquet out of your hand. There is nothing you could do. It's like the year Krajicek won Wimbledon. The way he beat Pete is the one of the best power grass court matches I've ever seen.

I'm just saying that Fed is also very good defensively and exploiting the movement of big hitters. If the surfaces were truly fast, he would have done less of that. I'd venture that in such a case there would be slam winners outside of the big 3. And yeah more would come out of Novak/Nadal than out of Federer's slam tally. But tennis would definitely be more exciting.

Anyway, my overall point of the previous post was that I'm tired of people here saying that Nadal is some talentless hack. A working class fisherman who just relies on his physicality and speed to win matches. Sure, Federer is far more talented than Nadal and no one argues that. But most tennis pundits and experts still regard Nadal as an all time great and one of the most talented players to play the game.
sorry but this just sounds like a lot of speculation without much substance. I would also love to understand how you come to the conclusion that Federer has benefited from slower surfaces...
 
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Moxie

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I am not too sure if he is shaky or not ...maybe more like puzzled as certain balls are coming back to him that he does not usually see come back from players not named Rafa/Roger/Murray...
He started slow, making a lot of UFEs, lots of ball-bouncing.
 

atttomole

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I do agree with most of what you wrote. My view is that Fed too has benefitted (a little) from slowing of the surfaces.
Of course not as much as Novak and Nadal. And yes it has also hurt him especially vs Novak - I'd say. (He was going to lose to Nadal anyway on clay, but potentially could have beaten Djokovic on fast grass).

Still, you are underestimating the effects of faster surfaces even in this era. S-V is not always needed for a big hitter to be lethal on fast surfaces. There were serves yesterday at 143 mph+ in Wimbledon. Nick hit a forehand at 115 mph+ (the one that he aimed at Nadal).
It doesn't matter what string technology you have, but if the surface is truly fast (like in the 90s) and someone is serving over 70% at 140 mph+ and hitting 100mph+ from both wings, they will take the racquet out of your hand. There is nothing you could do. It's like the year Krajicek won Wimbledon. The way he beat Pete is the one of the best power grass court matches I've ever seen.

I'm just saying that Fed is also very good defensively and exploiting the movement of big hitters. If the surfaces were truly fast, he would have done less of that. I'd venture that in such a case there would be slam winners outside of the big 3. And yeah more would come out of Novak/Nadal than out of Federer's slam tally. But tennis would definitely be more exciting.

Anyway, my overall point of the previous post was that I'm tired of people here saying that Nadal is some talentless hack. A working class fisherman who just relies on his physicality and speed to win matches. Sure, Federer is far more talented than Nadal and no one argues that. But most tennis pundits and experts still regard Nadal as an all time great and one of the most talented players to play the game.
I disagree that Fed would have won less on fast grass. Look at how Federer played against the most dangerous servers on most fast courts in the past 12 years or so. You will see that he hardly had problems against big servers. His results at Halle are a testament of that.
 

brokenshoelace

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Well, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before the match you gave 55/45 odds in Rafa's favour... Why so close? One of the greatest of all time vs a guy with bush league shots? That's the point with what a difference a day makes with commentary... or even a few points in a couple of tiebreaks.

Most people looked at this as a dangerous match for Rafa on this surface, and for good reason. I'm not bigging Kyrgios up here, he's got a lot of shortcomings, but he's also a big match player. ALL the top active guys recognise this. We're not talking commentators... we're talking peers.

Like I said initially, "technically superior" players to Kyrgios like the Nishikoris or Goffins of this world would have been a shoe-in for Nadal - yet I'm certain he'd rather have seen them than Kyrgios on the other side of the net.

All academic now... it's done.

Indeed, hindsight is a wonderful thing, as the 55/45 odds I gave Nadal did not involve a single word of praise for Nick beyond his serve (and I only made 2 dozen posts about the match), nor his supposed talent. It was mainly focused on Nadal's early struggles at Wimbledon and lack of grass practice.

The posts are there. If you go back and read, I don't think you'd spot a shift in narrative at all re: Nick. In fact, I'm sure you've read that I very dismissively posted: "If Nadal plays well, he wins, period." As it turns out, he didn't even need to...so I can be an even bigger condescending jerk about what an overrated hack Nick is.

And Nick IS indeed a more dangerous opponent than the guys you mentioned. He's more unpredictable, capable of riding big waves of momentum, has gamesmanship, isn't afraid of the moment, can try crazy things... That doesn't mean he's more talented as I'm sure you agree that's not how talent is defined. Nishikori is actually a perennial top 10 player and a major finalist, so I wouldn't really mention him in the same breath as Nick other than to mention that he's a superior player.
 
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