2019 Australian Open Quarterfinals: Nadal vs. Tiafoe

[rafanoy1992]

Also, I would rather have this version of Nadal than the 2018 US Open version of Nadal. Man, that was tough to watch because he could barely hit the ball through the court.

 

[DarthFed]

Who cares about semis, it's about winning the title.


Have to agree with this. Money + extreme competition=cheating. They likely all do it. Better to accept it and find out ways to improve the system. If any of the big 3 get caught, I think they will find a way to make it go away.

No argument there. Everyone on this board knows I think you either win the title or you're nothing. And any year without a major title is a weak year too. Trust me I get a lot of pushback on that, especially from Nadal and Nole tards who act like Roger was in decent form all those years in his 30's where he won nothing and often was bounced early in majors. 2014 and 2015 particularly crack me up, the idiots act like Roger was good those years despite winning diddly squat and even finishing behind Murray in 2015.

But I was just foolishly responding to a Nad troll.

 

[Carol]

I wouldn't exactly say so. The Fed troll hasn't graced us with his presence yet so we're saved from that.

Neither a Rafa troll but I've read someone around here calling troll to one of his fans which is a total fallacy

 

[Horsa]

Neither a Rafa troll but I've read someone around here calling troll to one of his fans which is a total fallacy

I agree with you & wish that everyone would get on with each other & have a laugh, joke & chat in a civilised manner but it doesn't really matter what I think.

 

[tented]

D) The implications that Nadal is on PEDs by a Roger Federer fan are hilarious. Of all the things Fed fans lack any sort of awareness about, their PEDs accusations always take the cake. I will state this again: Your favorite athlete takes banned substances. Not you Front. A general "you." Cristiano Ronaldo? Messi? Mayweather? Serena? Nadal? Federer? Djokovic? Tom Brady? They've all done it, as they should. I don't understand how naive you have to be to think that with all the advancement in science, that athletes with so much on the line aren't looking to take advantage. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're injecting themselves with steroids like pro wrestlers, but they are taking banned substances, or substances that will go on to be banned in the future (all the more reason why current drug testing rules are a joke).

Why is it that all of a sudden guys are able to play at a insanely high level in EVERY sport at an age where athletes used to be washed up or retired all of a sudden? Advanced training and nutrition? Like you said, modern medicine, eh?

Tom Brady, Lebron, Roger Federer, Serena, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zlatan... At their respective ages, no athletes in history performed at this high a level.

So you're telling me Nadal is a potential abuser but the most successful tennis player in history, who still moved like a fucking gazelle late into his 30's and plays for 4+ hours without breaking a sweat is all natural eh? Yeah, makes sense. Also, didn't Roger take 6 months off in 2016 and returned in 2017 magically moving, hitting and playing better than he has in years?

I suspect all of this is true, even though it can’t be definitively proven. But it is noteworthy, to say the least, that these athletes are still so successful at their relatively advanced ages.

Microdosing? I guess that’s at least one possibility you’re implying, hence not showing up on drug tests.

But it is hard for me to wrap my mind around athletes doing this. How much can these wins mean if they know they’ve been aided by breaking the rules and taking banned or soon-to-be-banned substances?

Not to mention their reputations. Can anyone look at Maria Sharapova or Lance Armstrong, and think anything other than drug cheats? Does Roger really want to risk being in this category?

 

[Front242]

This post is garbage. I mean that's a pretty impressive feat, considering you're responding to A-P, whose post itself in this thread (and in general) is barf inducing. Sorry man, you know I like you but:

A) Nadal had ankle surgery last fall.

B) Nadal "not having the offensive skills" being a narrative in 2019 is a fucking joke. That talking point has sailed a long time ago.

C) Nadal's offensive skills this tournament are not some improvement or anything. In fact, he's played a bit below par and has played much better offensive tennis in the past.

D) The implications that Nadal is on PEDs by a Roger Federer fan are hilarious. Of all the things Fed fans lack any sort of awareness about, their PEDs accusations always take the cake. I will state this again: Your favorite athlete takes banned substances. Not you Front. A general "you." Cristiano Ronaldo? Messi? Mayweather? Serena? Nadal? Federer? Djokovic? Tom Brady? They've all done it, as they should. I don't understand how naive you have to be to think that with all the advancement in science, that athletes with so much on the line aren't looking to take advantage. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're injecting themselves with steroids like pro wrestlers, but they are taking banned substances, or substances that will go on to be banned in the future (all the more reason why current drug testing rules are a joke).

Why is it that all of a sudden guys are able to play at a insanely high level in EVERY sport at an age where athletes used to be washed up or retired all of a sudden? Advanced training and nutrition? Like you said, modern medicine, eh?

Tom Brady, Lebron, Roger Federer, Serena, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zlatan... At their respective ages, no athletes in history performed at this high a level.

So you're telling me Nadal is a potential abuser but the most successful tennis player in history, who still moved like a fucking gazelle late into his 30's and plays for 4+ hours without breaking a sweat is all natural eh? Yeah, makes sense. Also, didn't Roger take 6 months off in 2016 and returned in 2017 magically moving, hitting and playing better than he has in years?

Didn't get the chance to reply last night as I got home late from the gym and was wrecked. In reply to the points in your post as you labelled them:

(A) The ankle surgery was a mickey mouse procedure for removal of a foreign body that wasn't affecting his movement. They simply needed to wait till the off season to have time to get it done. Sounds like it was about as invasive as chopping one's toenails though.

(B) + (C) He still lacks offensive skills when playing a highly skilled, attacking player who isn't a choker otherwise why the hell is he playing crazy long matches against Thiem on a hardcourt when Thiem absolutely sucks on everything but clay?! As you and others stated here, he doesn't look anywhere near as amazing as the commentators or some posters here are making out. Talk about over hype and overreaction. Anyone can look good against Duckworth, De Minaur, Tiafoe or Berdych putting on a clown performance. The only difference so far in this tournament is he's trying to pull the trigger earlier in rallies and it's working against the donkeys but let's see how it pans out against any good player. For the record, his best match ever I still say was Monte Carlo 2010 against Verdasco 6-0 6-1. Never played better imo.

(D) I've stated before it's quite possible they all take stuff, however, I've also stated what is true and, that is, there's way more to go on for Roger NOT being on PEDs because he tires like a normal person (none of this patented Spanish endless energizer bunny stamina, and I don't just mean Nadal, hence why I said Spanish). Ferrer is the most obvious doper to ever hit a tennis ball and has been linked to Lance Armstrong's doctor (Luis Garcia Del Moral - or Del No Fucking Morals Really) at Tennis Val in Valencia as was Sara Errani. I mentioned Sara Errani had been linked to this doctor here and many regular posters dismissed it and said it was the usual slander and bs but guess what? I was right all along and she was caught doping not long afterwards.

Not just now at 37, but for a long time, if Federer played a long match he likely lost the next one. Why's that? Surely his supposed PEDs would give him great recovery like the Spaniards? But, no, he usually loses. That's a major flaw in the theory that he's a doper. But he played a 5 set match at the AO 2017 against Wawrinka people will say. So what? He had to tank 2 sets to recover for the 5th and, what's more, he's gone on record saying he had to do this against Novak back in 2010 and 2011 in those 2 USO semis where he held match points. That was a long time ago and he was a good deal younger and yet he STILL even then needed to tank sets to conserve energy for a deciding 5th set. Not exactly what one would expect for a doper really now is it? I can list countless numbers of Spaniards who could run consecutive marathons and not be tired and then play a 5 hour tennis match the next day and WIN it. Not a bit suss...

Another thing to bear in mind is that merely looking at numbers is not a good idea. On paper one sees, for example, Federer playing 5 set matches against Nishikori and Wawrinka and then a 5 set match against Nadal at the AO 2017 but Federer's 5 set matches are WAY shorter than Nadal's ones. Quite often a 5 set Federer match is the same as a 3 or 4 set Nadal match so of course it's not as physically draining. If he was pumped full of shit he'd likely have never stopped playing on clay and wouldn't be playing a lot less events. Why not play when you can run all day and night? 'cos he can't that;s why. Age isn't an issue if you're pumped to the gills full of shit, right? But I don't think he is because his stamina is NOTHING like that of the Spaniards (any of them) or Djokovic or Murray when he could actually play properly (see AO 2012).

Another reason to think he's innocent of PEDs is that NO ONE at all except Federer has asked for the authorities to keep samples on file for 10 years so they can retroactively retest as technology improves. We all know the cheats are miles ahead of the testers so why push for this if you're riddled with drugs? 'cos he's probably not is why. Nadal and Murray to cite just 2 have been very vocally against testing in the past and only changed their tune in light of the Armstrong debacle when their PR teams told them to man up and improve their image in the public eye by being more for testing. If Federer was truly guilty of PED use then he'd be a total idiot to be pushing so hard to get them to rest samples retroactively and keep the samples on file for 10 years.

Now, I know damn well they ALL use whatever legal means they can to get an edge and that's perfectly understandable and acceptable (your buddy is renowned for his dubious TUE abuse both of which preceded his 2 career best years 2010 and 2013, but no TUE records have ever been released about Federer). My personal take from Federer wanting them to get samples kept on file for 10 years and retested in future is he knows damn well he's been shafted and wants to appear buddies in the public eye with you know who but he doesn't want to go down in history having played second fiddle to a guy who is much more likely to have doped than he has. When I say doped, I mean hardcore shit, not legally acceptable means. You don't go from brawny to scrawny and have endless energy without anyone with half a brain noticing. Most of us not in denial have noticed.

I don't think Federer is playing at an insane level btw at 37. He's playing pretty damn rubbish imo given the player he once was and is playing as you'd expect from an aging guy who still has incredible shot making skills when the ball actually makes it over the net. It very often doesn't. He has flashes of brilliance but can't sustain it because he's most likely NOT on PEDs. He's lost to a bunch of donkeys since the AO last year and if he was on cake loads of drugs then why is he embarrassing himself at the last few slams?! Keep looking deeper at his losses and you'll see he's likely not taking anything dubious or he'd be winning all these matches rather than losing them. If he was world number 1 at 37 and making everyone look 2nd rate then of course it'd turn heads but he's not. He's playing error filled, sloppy matches where he can't convert a break point to save his life, blowing potentially massive leads and losing when match point up on way too many occasions for a long time now. Those points are all completely countering your claim he's on PEDs.

Roger returned after a well needed break refreshed and obviously this gave him time to heal up any nagging physical issues. The time off was the first time he truly got to practice hitting through his backhand properly with his "new" racquet. I say "new" because he started using it in 2013 but funnily enough never got the chance to fully come to grips with it till around 2016 as he started using it during the injury riddled year in 2013 when his back was at him. He ended the year still physically a mess and then before you know it, it's 2014 and the new season has already begun and he never had 6 full months to get used to that new racquet till mid 2016 when he had the time off after Wimbledon.

Full credit to Ljubicic who got him to consciously hit his backhand more aggressively at the AO 2017 and much of that year. That wasn't PED related, he just told him stop blocking back serves and go for more winners. Not exactly earth shatteringly hard to believe. Seems his back injury that flared up at Montreal 2017 spelt the end of his hard hit backhands as his movement was compromised. He didn't come back like superman with boundless energy. He came back healthy and hitting his backhand with more purpose. Nothing too dubious there and he still played a lot 5 set matches (albeit short). It's not like he came back and straight setted everyone all the way to lifting the trophy. He struggled in the 2018 AO final against Cilic and has been pretty diabolical for much of the time since then by his standards so I personally see absolutely no indication of PEDs. Might be nice if he DID actually take some to compete with those clowns who aren't fooling anyone by never getting tired...

Yes he could be taking PEDs, as could all of them as you said, but there's a lot less of a case for him than others. He's never sprouted muscles overnight and then shrunk very noticeably and he's never had boundless energy. What these supposed PEDs are doing for him is anyone's guess...but I see no evidence of it. All I see is an aging player who used to be great, on occasion is still very good but loses matches you'd probably expect him to at this stage and has blown matches left, right and centre for years now out of nowhere...not really what you'd expect from a fella many claim is pumped full of chemicals.

Rant over.

 

[Denis]

Indeed quite the rant Front, but an informative one. I think many countries are suspicious when it comes to doping but I’ve never quite liked what was coming out of Spain. Look at Valverde, the cyclist, treated as a complete hero while it’s proven he did blood doping yet refuses to talk about it acknowledge it. Won the world championship last year at age 38 or so.

 

[Front242]

Indeed quite the rant Front, but an informative one. I think many countries are suspicious when it comes to doping but I’ve never quite liked what was coming out of Spain. Look at Valverde, the cyclist, treated as a complete hero while it’s proven he did blood doping yet refuses to talk about it acknowledge it. Won the world championship last year at age 38 or so.

The infamous Fuentes said "If I would talk, the Spanish football team would be stripped of the 2010 World Cup." That says all you need to know about Spain..

 

[Moxie]

The infamous Fuentes said "If I would talk, the Spanish football team would be stripped of the 2010 World Cup." That says all you need to know about Spain..

I'd never heard that quote before, so I went looking for it and didn't find it. If you have a link, I'd be interested. I've always found it surprising how willing you are to believe Fuentes. He also says that he did nothing but help his athletes whose blood was a bit too thin, which I would assume you'd say is a lie. What are the chances that other things he's said are lies and self-serving?

 

[brokenshoelace]

The infamous Fuentes said "If I would talk, the Spanish football team would be stripped of the 2010 World Cup." That says all you need to know about Spain..

This is a quote that an inmate alleges Fuentes said. Just to be clear. Not that it changes the general point since that was a shitshow and Spain should be ashamed from the way it handled it but you're better off looking for slightly more reliable sources

I see your previous post is pretty long so I'll get to it tomorrow.

 

[Moxie]

Indeed quite the rant Front, but an informative one. I think many countries are suspicious when it comes to doping but I’ve never quite liked what was coming out of Spain. Look at Valverde, the cyclist, treated as a complete hero while it’s proven he did blood doping yet refuses to talk about it acknowledge it. Won the world championship last year at age 38 or so.

Imho, you "never quite liked what is coming out of Spain" because you spend a lot of time on these forums and listen to the endless slurs by Front and Darth. There are a lot more cases of doping coming out of the US, and across many sports. Then there's Russia. Or how about this WADA report from 2016: Top 6 are Italy, France, US, Australia, Begium, Russia/India. I downloaded the PDF. Countries with more violations than Spain include also: Brazil, China, Chinese Taipei, El Salvador, Georgia, Kazakstan, Poland, Romania, So. Africa, (list not complete, I just stopped there.) In fact, Spain was tied with Sri Lanka.

 

[Moxie]

This is a quote that an inmate alleges Fuentes said. Just to be clear. Not that it changes the general point since that was a shitshow and Spain should be ashamed from the way it handled it but you're better off looking for slightly more reliable sources

I see your previous post is pretty long so I'll get to it tomorrow.

It's very true that Spain handled that whole case poorly. Which certainly feeds tinfoil hat folks like Front.

 

[DarthFed]

"Handled poorly" is how you put it? As in a giant fucking national coverup of dozens if not hundreds of cheaters? I'm still waiting to hear which tennis players from that honorable nation were working with Fuentes.

 

[Moxie]

"Handled poorly" is how you put it? As in a giant fucking national coverup of dozens if not hundreds of cheaters? I'm still waiting to hear which tennis players from that honorable nation were working with Fuentes.

That you don't know. Put away the drums and tune your radio back to the conspiracy channel. Seriously.

 

[DarthFed]

That you don't know. Put away the drums and tune your radio back to the conspiracy channel. Seriously.

Don't know what exactly? We do know there were tennis players (plural) among his clients.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Didn't get the chance to reply last night as I got home late from the gym and was wrecked. In reply to the points in your post as you labelled them:

(A) The ankle surgery was a mickey mouse procedure for removal of a foreign body that wasn't affecting his movement. They simply needed to wait till the off season to have time to get it done. Sounds like it was about as invasive as chopping one's toenails though.

(B) + (C) He still lacks offensive skills when playing a highly skilled, attacking player who isn't a choker otherwise why the hell is he playing crazy long matches against Thiem on a hardcourt when Thiem absolutely sucks on everything but clay?! As you and others stated here, he doesn't look anywhere near as amazing as the commentators or some posters here are making out. Talk about over hype and overreaction. Anyone can look good against Duckworth, De Minaur, Tiafoe or Berdych putting on a clown performance. The only difference so far in this tournament is he's trying to pull the trigger earlier in rallies and it's working against the donkeys but let's see how it pans out against any good player. For the record, his best match ever I still say was Monte Carlo 2010 against Verdasco 6-0 6-1. Never played better imo.

(D) I've stated before it's quite possible they all take stuff, however, I've also stated what is true and, that is, there's way more to go on for Roger NOT being on PEDs because he tires like a normal person (none of this patented Spanish endless energizer bunny stamina, and I don't just mean Nadal, hence why I said Spanish). Ferrer is the most obvious doper to ever hit a tennis ball and has been linked to Lance Armstrong's doctor (Luis Garcia Del Moral - or Del No Fucking Morals Really) at Tennis Val in Valencia as was Sara Errani. I mentioned Sara Errani had been linked to this doctor here and many regular posters dismissed it and said it was the usual slander and bs but guess what? I was right all along and she was caught doping not long afterwards.

Not just now at 37, but for a long time, if Federer played a long match he likely lost the next one. Why's that? Surely his supposed PEDs would give him great recovery like the Spaniards? But, no, he usually loses. That's a major flaw in the theory that he's a doper. But he played a 5 set match at the AO 2017 against Wawrinka people will say. So what? He had to tank 2 sets to recover for the 5th and, what's more, he's gone on record saying he had to do this against Novak back in 2010 and 2011 in those 2 USO semis where he held match points. That was a long time ago and he was a good deal younger and yet he STILL even then needed to tank sets to conserve energy for a deciding 5th set. Not exactly what one would expect for a doper really now is it? I can list countless numbers of Spaniards who could run consecutive marathons and not be tired and then play a 5 hour tennis match the next day and WIN it. Not a bit suss...

Another thing to bear in mind is that merely looking at numbers is not a good idea. On paper one sees, for example, Federer playing 5 set matches against Nishikori and Wawrinka and then a 5 set match against Nadal at the AO 2017 but Federer's 5 set matches are WAY shorter than Nadal's ones. Quite often a 5 set Federer match is the same as a 3 or 4 set Nadal match so of course it's not as physically draining. If he was pumped full of shit he'd likely have never stopped playing on clay and wouldn't be playing a lot less events. Why not play when you can run all day and night? 'cos he can't that;s why. Age isn't an issue if you're pumped to the gills full of shit, right? But I don't think he is because his stamina is NOTHING like that of the Spaniards (any of them) or Djokovic or Murray when he could actually play properly (see AO 2012).

Another reason to think he's innocent of PEDs is that NO ONE at all except Federer has asked for the authorities to keep samples on file for 10 years so they can retroactively retest as technology improves. We all know the cheats are miles ahead of the testers so why push for this if you're riddled with drugs? 'cos he's probably not is why. Nadal and Murray to cite just 2 have been very vocally against testing in the past and only changed their tune in light of the Armstrong debacle when their PR teams told them to man up and improve their image in the public eye by being more for testing. If Federer was truly guilty of PED use then he'd be a total idiot to be pushing so hard to get them to rest samples retroactively and keep the samples on file for 10 years.

Now, I know damn well they ALL use whatever legal means they can to get an edge and that's perfectly understandable and acceptable (your buddy is renowned for his dubious TUE abuse both of which preceded his 2 career best years 2010 and 2013, but no TUE records have ever been released about Federer). My personal take from Federer wanting them to get samples kept on file for 10 years and retested in future is he knows damn well he's been shafted and wants to appear buddies in the public eye with you know who but he doesn't want to go down in history having played second fiddle to a guy who is much more likely to have doped than he has. When I say doped, I mean hardcore shit, not legally acceptable means. You don't go from brawny to scrawny and have endless energy without anyone with half a brain noticing. Most of us not in denial have noticed.

I don't think Federer is playing at an insane level btw at 37. He's playing pretty damn rubbish imo given the player he once was and is playing as you'd expect from an aging guy who still has incredible shot making skills when the ball actually makes it over the net. It very often doesn't. He has flashes of brilliance but can't sustain it because he's most likely NOT on PEDs. He's lost to a bunch of donkeys since the AO last year and if he was on cake loads of drugs then why is he embarrassing himself at the last few slams?! Keep looking deeper at his losses and you'll see he's likely not taking anything dubious or he'd be winning all these matches rather than losing them. If he was world number 1 at 37 and making everyone look 2nd rate then of course it'd turn heads but he's not. He's playing error filled, sloppy matches where he can't convert a break point to save his life, blowing potentially massive leads and losing when match point up on way too many occasions for a long time now. Those points are all completely countering your claim he's on PEDs.

Roger returned after a well needed break refreshed and obviously this gave him time to heal up any nagging physical issues. The time off was the first time he truly got to practice hitting through his backhand properly with his "new" racquet. I say "new" because he started using it in 2013 but funnily enough never got the chance to fully come to grips with it till around 2016 as he started using it during the injury riddled year in 2013 when his back was at him. He ended the year still physically a mess and then before you know it, it's 2014 and the new season has already begun and he never had 6 full months to get used to that new racquet till mid 2016 when he had the time off after Wimbledon.

Full credit to Ljubicic who got him to consciously hit his backhand more aggressively at the AO 2017 and much of that year. That wasn't PED related, he just told him stop blocking back serves and go for more winners. Not exactly earth shatteringly hard to believe. Seems his back injury that flared up at Montreal 2017 spelt the end of his hard hit backhands as his movement was compromised. He didn't come back like superman with boundless energy. He came back healthy and hitting his backhand with more purpose. Nothing too dubious there and he still played a lot 5 set matches (albeit short). It's not like he came back and straight setted everyone all the way to lifting the trophy. He struggled in the 2018 AO final against Cilic and has been pretty diabolical for much of the time since then by his standards so I personally see absolutely no indication of PEDs. Might be nice if he DID actually take some to compete with those clowns who aren't fooling anyone by never getting tired...

Yes he could be taking PEDs, as could all of them as you said, but there's a lot less of a case for him than others. He's never sprouted muscles overnight and then shrunk very noticeably and he's never had boundless energy. What these supposed PEDs are doing for him is anyone's guess...but I see no evidence of it. All I see is an aging player who used to be great, on occasion is still very good but loses matches you'd probably expect him to at this stage and has blown matches left, right and centre for years now out of nowhere...not really what you'd expect from a fella many claim is pumped full of chemicals.

Rant over.

I'll get to this tomorrow and I'll respond paragraph by paragraph, but some of the arguments are laughable. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Moxie]

Don't know what exactly? We do know there were tennis players (plural) among his clients.

No, we don't. We know what he said, but he's a criminal and a liar. You're so willing to believe what you want to, and unwilling to be skeptical when there is reason to be. You're unwilling to think Roger could be culpable, even faced with reasons to at least scratch the head, but completely convinced about Rafa, even when faced with plenty of reasons why not. You are both naive and agenda-driven.

 

[tented]

I'll get to this tomorrow and I'll respond paragraph by paragraph, but some of the arguments are laughable. Just throwing that out there.

[Clicks “Watch Thread”]

 

[DarthFed]

No, we don't. We know what he said, but he's a criminal and a liar. You're so willing to believe what you want to, and unwilling to be skeptical when there is reason to be. You're unwilling to think Roger could be culpable, even faced with reasons to at least scratch the head, but completely convinced about Rafa, even when faced with plenty of reasons why not. You are both naive and agenda-driven.

What exactly is his motive to make up that soccer and tennis players are among his clients? If anything one would think he'd want to understate how many athletes he was doping. But speaking of naive I'm sure you'll come up with some reason he just decided to mention soccer and tennis players.

 

[Moxie]

What exactly is his motive to make up that soccer and tennis players are among his clients? If anything one would think he'd want to understate how many athletes he was doping. But speaking of naive I'm sure you'll come up with some reason he just decided to mention soccer and tennis players.

I did mention earlier...who knows what self-service could come of it. But I'm going to let my attorney take over, at this point. You and I have gone 18 rounds on it already.