2015 French Open Final: Djokovic v. Wawrinka

[Federberg]

This. It just showed desperation as Novak clearly didn't believe in his chances in neutral rallies which is a testament to just how well Stan was playing.

100% co-signed, which again, goes back to being unable to strategically problem solve what Stan was doing, as opposed to "choking."

Yeah there was no choking from Nole yesterday. The only thing he'd point at is a better 1st serve % and maybe the forehand. Not that it was erratic I just don't think he hit it as well as normal, not the same pace and depth. Of course a lot of that goes back to the other side of the net.

Semantics I guess. But generally you drop-shot when you're tired, or your brain freezes and you can't play with the requisite calm which allows you to make good decisions. I described that as a form of mental choking, but I'm not going to die in a ditch for that descriptive. Seemed as good as any. Clearly he was desperate to find a solution, but I really think that once the realisation hit him that he might not actually win this thing, he was stuck in a loop thinking about the title and not playing the match anymore..

 

[the AntiPusher]

I doubt anyone thinks that Nole choked, but if we go back to Tignor's comment that he "looked constrained, more hopeful than aggressive. He didn’t fire himself up, rev the crowd, or try to take the match to his opponent until deep into the fourth set," we could probably agree that in the second set, just when he would be expected to hunt Stan down, and press home his advantage, his level dropped, while Stan became emboldened.

Is this "choking"? I wouldn't call it that, I'd say it was being more conservative than he needed to be. If it was a semi, I imagine he'd have been more aggressive. Stan rose then and seized the momentum, so it's a chicken and egg thingy. Stan's response to losing the first set was incredible.

But "choking" would be more like Novotna, or McEnroe in 1984, where he was dominating a player who he'd dominated for a long while, up two sets, up a break in the fourth - and he bottled it. Novak was actually scrapping quite hard out there, but the momentum swung against him.

The issue of the dropshots was to highlight just how lost he was in the face of the assault...

Choking pertaining not able to win the long GS title he desire..Stan just totally outplayed and was the aggressor

 

[DarthFed]

100% co-signed, which again, goes back to being unable to strategically problem solve what Stan was doing, as opposed to "choking."

Yeah there was no choking from Nole yesterday. The only thing he'd point at is a better 1st serve % and maybe the forehand. Not that it was erratic I just don't think he hit it as well as normal, not the same pace and depth. Of course a lot of that goes back to the other side of the net.

Semantics I guess. But generally you drop-shot when you're tired, or your brain freezes and you can't play with the requisite calm which allows you to make good decisions. I described that as a form of mental choking, but I'm not going to die in a ditch for that descriptive. Seemed as good as any. Clearly he was desperate to find a solution, but I really think that once the realisation hit him that he might not actually win this thing, he was stuck in a loop thinking about the title and not playing the match anymore..

It's possible, in a way I just think it can be perceived differently. I often think players go to the drop shot a lot for a couple reasons, 1. they are tired as you mention and 2. they lack confidence in their ability to win big points so they are trying to force the action quickly. With Djokovic the shot is also part of his strategy and he does it pretty well. It may have been a bit of both yesterday but generally his drop shot didn't work much because he was pushed back farther than he is accustomed to and at times it just seemed like a cop out to me.

 

[Federberg]

^Yes agreed. What I found particularly odd, was that the tactic that served him well in the first set was abandoned for no good reason. He was looping balls deep with his forehand which kept Stan back. But he didn't do it in the next set. I can sort of understand why, because he probably felt that once he had that set he could take control, but when that didn't happen in set 2, why not employ the tactic again? I did hear comments from the commentator that the wind picked up. If that was the case then I can well understand a reluctance to try that shot. Topspin is less reliable in windy conditions than a slice. But then why didn't he employ more slices, some short, some long. Anything to disrupt Stan's rhythm. Again, I would put it down to Nole playing the title and not the specific match. That was a brutal run in to be fair, first you face the King of Clay, then you face your strongest rival, then you face the form player of the tournament. Horrific. Great for tennis, but sad for Novak

 

[DarthFed]

^ Agreed. I remember thinking earlier in the week that after beating Rafa it might play with his mind/game to then face Roger in the final. Obviously the way Stan was playing it was much worse for Nole the way it turned out. Even going into the final he had to be thinking a bit to himself, "after all this hard work I get someone that I've gone 5 sets with 4 straight times in majors"

 

[kskate2]

^Yes agreed. What I found particularly odd, was that the tactic that served him well in the first set was abandoned for no good reason. He was looping balls deep with his forehand which kept Stan back. But he didn't do it in the next set. I can sort of understand why, because he probably felt that once he had that set he could take control, but when that didn't happen in set 2, why not employ the tactic again? I did hear comments from the commentator that the wind picked up. If that was the case then I can well understand a reluctance to try that shot. Topspin is less reliable in windy conditions than a slice. But then why didn't he employ more slices, some short, some long. Anything to disrupt Stan's rhythm. Again, I would put it down to Nole playing the title and not the specific match. That was a brutal run in to be fair, first you face the King of Clay, then you face your strongest rival, then you face the form player of the tournament. Horrific. Great for tennis, but sad for Novak

While I agree it was a less than desirable draw for him, he is the undisputed #1 for a reason. He's beaten all the players you mentioned at least once this year and pretty handily in some cases. He's expected to survive these tests. He didn't bring his best level to the final. I actually would like to see that match (where both players bring their best level at the same time).

People may not want to use the word choke and that's fine. But there's tentativeness, tightness, hesitation, a lack of confidence, no acceptance of expectation or whatever you want to call it when it comes to the business end of most slams and this one in particular. He's been a heavy favorite several times coming into this slam and he's laid an egg every year for the last 4.

As BJK once said, pressure is a privilege. I don't think he embraces the expectation or pressure.

 

[Federberg]

^Yes agreed. What I found particularly odd, was that the tactic that served him well in the first set was abandoned for no good reason. He was looping balls deep with his forehand which kept Stan back. But he didn't do it in the next set. I can sort of understand why, because he probably felt that once he had that set he could take control, but when that didn't happen in set 2, why not employ the tactic again? I did hear comments from the commentator that the wind picked up. If that was the case then I can well understand a reluctance to try that shot. Topspin is less reliable in windy conditions than a slice. But then why didn't he employ more slices, some short, some long. Anything to disrupt Stan's rhythm. Again, I would put it down to Nole playing the title and not the specific match. That was a brutal run in to be fair, first you face the King of Clay, then you face your strongest rival, then you face the form player of the tournament. Horrific. Great for tennis, but sad for Novak

While I agree it was a less than desirable draw for him, he is the undisputed #1 for a reason. He's beaten all the players you mentioned at least once this year and pretty handily in some cases. He's expected to survive these tests. He didn't bring his best level to the final. I actually would like to see that match (where both players bring their best level at the same time).

People may not want to use the word choke and that's fine. But there's tentativeness, tightness, hesitation, a lack of confidence, no acceptance of expectation or whatever you want to call it when it comes to the business end of most slams and this one in particular. He's been a heavy favorite several times coming into this slam and he's laid an egg every year for the last 4.

As BJK once said, pressure is a privilege. I don't think he embraces the expectation or pressure.

I agree with you Kate, but I just wanted to avoid any polemic by my use of the 'C' word. I think that Fedal in their prime did what they had to do to get the 'W', and a few times Novak has wobbled at the last, despite looking incredibly dominant in the lead up. I do agree with most, that he should be given a pass for this one. Stan would have beaten anyone... and I mean anyone.. yesterday. It's exactly what I said, and felt when he dispatched Roger as well. He was playing 21st century tennis that day. Obviously the accumulation of surprise defeats is building up against Nole, and it's not unreasonable to question his mentality on finals day.

But like most others, the one match I will criticise him for is his Wimbledon loss to Murray. He just seemed so passive and accepting in that one, and there was no wind or excessive heat if my recollection is right (seeing as I lived just a few hundred yards away I think I have special authority on that! ). I really didn't think that Murray did anything special, and quite frankly the pressure was on Andy. It's tough to beat the hometown favourite, but it's been done before. Was it 2006 when Roger beat Agassi at Flushing? That wasn't exactly a friendly crowd, and he was playing against an all time great to boot. Whatever Becker is doing didn't work properly this time. I sincerely hope he'll take his chance next year or the year after. He's too good not to get another opportunity

 

[Carol]

Unless things change drastically he has to be favourite again next year

Why? :huh:

Errr... he straight setted the King of Clay, he beat the de facto number 2 player in the world. He is the uncontested number 1 player in the world, he won the clay master series that he participated in.. what more do you want? As I said... unless things change drastically... what exactly are you objecting to?

Very simple. He beat the King of Clay when this one was playing his worst. He beat the 2 player who was playing better on clay than the previous years but still far to be "specialist on clay", but he lost to a player who is 30 years old and has just a few clay titles (the most important was MC 2014 beaten Federer).
So as you can see this year the clay season has changed drastically, RG has been a surprise tournament and it's clear that we don't know what is going to happen the next months. Some players could play better, others worse (including the #1)

 

[Federberg]

Why? :huh:

Errr... he straight setted the King of Clay, he beat the de facto number 2 player in the world. He is the uncontested number 1 player in the world, he won the clay master series that he participated in.. what more do you want? As I said... unless things change drastically... what exactly are you objecting to?

Very simple. He beat the King of Clay when this one was playing his worst. He beat the 2 player who was playing better on clay than the previous years but still far to be "specialist on clay", but he lost to a player who is 30 years old and has just a few clay titles (the most important was MC 2014 beaten Federer).
So as you can see this year the clay season has changed drastically, RG has been a surprise tournament and it's clear that we don't know what is going to happen the next months. Some players could play better, others worse (including the #1)

Ok... I'll humour you Based on the current information set, who would you say is the favourite for next years RG? Facts mind.. not wishful thinking. If you were a bookie who would you price as favourite?

 

[Carol]

Errr... he straight setted the King of Clay, he beat the de facto number 2 player in the world. He is the uncontested number 1 player in the world, he won the clay master series that he participated in.. what more do you want? As I said... unless things change drastically... what exactly are you objecting to?

Very simple. He beat the King of Clay when this one was playing his worst. He beat the 2 player who was playing better on clay than the previous years but still far to be "specialist on clay", but he lost to a player who is 30 years old and has just a few clay titles (the most important was MC 2014 beaten Federer).
So as you can see this year the clay season has changed drastically, RG has been a surprise tournament and it's clear that we don't know what is going to happen the next months. Some players could play better, others worse (including the #1)

Ok... I'll humour you Based on the current information set, who would you say is the favourite for next years RG? Facts mind.. not wishful thinking. If you were a bookie who would you price as favourite?

Based on the current information set, I have not any idea who is the favorite for next year RG. It all depends how they would play at the time. And I can tell you the same, not wishful thinking, just wait what we'll see since now to May 2016

 

[Federberg]

Very simple. He beat the King of Clay when this one was playing his worst. He beat the 2 player who was playing better on clay than the previous years but still far to be "specialist on clay", but he lost to a player who is 30 years old and has just a few clay titles (the most important was MC 2014 beaten Federer).
So as you can see this year the clay season has changed drastically, RG has been a surprise tournament and it's clear that we don't know what is going to happen the next months. Some players could play better, others worse (including the #1)

Ok... I'll humour you Based on the current information set, who would you say is the favourite for next years RG? Facts mind.. not wishful thinking. If you were a bookie who would you price as favourite?

Based on the current information set, I have not any idea who is the favorite for next year RG. It all depends how they would play at the time. And I can tell you the same, not wishful thinking, just wait what we'll see since now to May 2016

O..kay then! uzzled

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

Ok... I'll humour you Based on the current information set, who would you say is the favourite for next years RG? Facts mind.. not wishful thinking. If you were a bookie who would you price as favourite?

Based on the current information set, I have not any idea who is the favorite for next year RG. It all depends how they would play at the time. And I can tell you the same, not wishful thinking, just wait what we'll see since now to May 2016

O..kay then! uzzled

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/tennis/mens-french-open

some bookies seem to agree. but of course, that's a looooong way off.

 

[Federberg]

Based on the current information set, I have not any idea who is the favorite for next year RG. It all depends how they would play at the time. And I can tell you the same, not wishful thinking, just wait what we'll see since now to May 2016

O..kay then! uzzled

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/tennis/mens-french-open

some bookies seem to agree. but of course, that's a looooong way off.

Yup. simple common sense... based on current information. Fanboyism stopping simple logic.. sigh :nono. I'm not saying he'll be the favourite 10 months from now. But it's just simple common sense. Thanks johnsteinbeck

 

[kskate2]

Post 2015 French Open Pics

 

[Fiero425]

Very nice pics! Congrats to Stan!

 

[Kirijax]

These are now the most famous shorts in the history of tennis. A marketing ploy that caught lightning in a bottle.

 

[Carol]

O..kay then! uzzled

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/tennis/mens-french-open

some bookies seem to agree. but of course, that's a looooong way off.

Yup. simple common sense... based on current information. Fanboyism stopping simple logic.. sigh :nono. I'm not saying he'll be the favourite 10 months from now. But it's just simple common sense. Thanks johnsteinbeck

Yeah, the simple common sense was to think Stan would win the RG 2015 , I'm sure those bookies knew about it since 2014 :snicker :nono

 

[Moxie]

^Yes agreed. What I found particularly odd, was that the tactic that served him well in the first set was abandoned for no good reason. He was looping balls deep with his forehand which kept Stan back. But he didn't do it in the next set. I can sort of understand why, because he probably felt that once he had that set he could take control, but when that didn't happen in set 2, why not employ the tactic again? I did hear comments from the commentator that the wind picked up. If that was the case then I can well understand a reluctance to try that shot. Topspin is less reliable in windy conditions than a slice. But then why didn't he employ more slices, some short, some long. Anything to disrupt Stan's rhythm. Again, I would put it down to Nole playing the title and not the specific match. That was a brutal run in to be fair, first you face the King of Clay, then you face your strongest rival, then you face the form player of the tournament. Horrific. Great for tennis, but sad for Novak

While I agree it was a less than desirable draw for him, he is the undisputed #1 for a reason. He's beaten all the players you mentioned at least once this year and pretty handily in some cases. He's expected to survive these tests. He didn't bring his best level to the final. I actually would like to see that match (where both players bring their best level at the same time).

People may not want to use the word choke and that's fine. But there's tentativeness, tightness, hesitation, a lack of confidence, no acceptance of expectation or whatever you want to call it when it comes to the business end of most slams and this one in particular. He's been a heavy favorite several times coming into this slam and he's laid an egg every year for the last 4.

As BJK once said, pressure is a privilege. I don't think he embraces the expectation or pressure.

I agree with you Kate, but I just wanted to avoid any polemic by my use of the 'C' word. I think that Fedal in their prime did what they had to do to get the 'W', and a few times Novak has wobbled at the last, despite looking incredibly dominant in the lead up. I do agree with most, that he should be given a pass for this one. Stan would have beaten anyone... and I mean anyone.. yesterday. It's exactly what I said, and felt when he dispatched Roger as well. He was playing 21st century tennis that day. Obviously the accumulation of surprise defeats is building up against Nole, and it's not unreasonable to question his mentality on finals day.

But like most others, the one match I will criticise him for is his Wimbledon loss to Murray. He just seemed so passive and accepting in that one, and there was no wind or excessive heat if my recollection is right (seeing as I lived just a few hundred yards away I think I have special authority on that! ). I really didn't think that Murray did anything special, and quite frankly the pressure was on Andy. It's tough to beat the hometown favourite, but it's been done before. Was it 2006 when Roger beat Agassi at Flushing? That wasn't exactly a friendly crowd, and he was playing against an all time great to boot. Whatever Becker is doing didn't work properly this time. I sincerely hope he'll take his chance next year or the year after. He's too good not to get another opportunity

I'm a bit late weighing in, as I had a lovely party in the country and only caught up to the match on replay. I agree with everyone who says that there wasn't much anyone could do against Wawrinka once he caught fire and stayed committed, but it is possible that Novak was thinking more of the title, and the impending disappointment, than staying in the moment. I don't agree with Kskate that he doesn't embrace the pressure or the expectation, generally: he often does, very well. But I do agree that it seems sometimes he falls down specifically in that way in some key moments. It was a tough draw, but he was looking focused and relaxed until the final, mainly. I think it's a big monkey on his back. (Also, a minor niggle: Djokovic has not been a heavy favorite coming into the French until this year.)

And Federberg, I agree with you that Nole's performance in the 2013 final at Wimbledon was a bit of a mystery, as to why Murray won in straights, though I disagree that Murray did nothing special. That one, like yesterday's, was a focused and committed performance, that time on Andy's part. But there is no one, including Murray's family, who would have predicted in 3 sets. I don't think the Del Potro SF completely explains how flat Novak was.

 

[Moxie]

Nice pix! At least Stan is embracing/making fun of? those awful shorts. Since he's going to have to look at those pictures for the rest of his life, with the regret of a bad 80s hairdo, I suppose the title will take the sting and shame out. At least he had the good sense to look more elegant the day-after.

 

[Federberg]

While I agree it was a less than desirable draw for him, he is the undisputed #1 for a reason. He's beaten all the players you mentioned at least once this year and pretty handily in some cases. He's expected to survive these tests. He didn't bring his best level to the final. I actually would like to see that match (where both players bring their best level at the same time).

People may not want to use the word choke and that's fine. But there's tentativeness, tightness, hesitation, a lack of confidence, no acceptance of expectation or whatever you want to call it when it comes to the business end of most slams and this one in particular. He's been a heavy favorite several times coming into this slam and he's laid an egg every year for the last 4.

As BJK once said, pressure is a privilege. I don't think he embraces the expectation or pressure.

I agree with you Kate, but I just wanted to avoid any polemic by my use of the 'C' word. I think that Fedal in their prime did what they had to do to get the 'W', and a few times Novak has wobbled at the last, despite looking incredibly dominant in the lead up. I do agree with most, that he should be given a pass for this one. Stan would have beaten anyone... and I mean anyone.. yesterday. It's exactly what I said, and felt when he dispatched Roger as well. He was playing 21st century tennis that day. Obviously the accumulation of surprise defeats is building up against Nole, and it's not unreasonable to question his mentality on finals day.

But like most others, the one match I will criticise him for is his Wimbledon loss to Murray. He just seemed so passive and accepting in that one, and there was no wind or excessive heat if my recollection is right (seeing as I lived just a few hundred yards away I think I have special authority on that! ). I really didn't think that Murray did anything special, and quite frankly the pressure was on Andy. It's tough to beat the hometown favourite, but it's been done before. Was it 2006 when Roger beat Agassi at Flushing? That wasn't exactly a friendly crowd, and he was playing against an all time great to boot. Whatever Becker is doing didn't work properly this time. I sincerely hope he'll take his chance next year or the year after. He's too good not to get another opportunity

I'm a bit late weighing in, as I had a lovely party in the country and only caught up to the match on replay. I agree with everyone who says that there wasn't much anyone could do against Wawrinka once he caught fire and stayed committed, but it is possible that Novak was thinking more of the title, and the impending disappointment, than staying in the moment. I don't agree with Kskate that he doesn't embrace the pressure or the expectation, generally: he often does, very well. But I do agree that it seems sometimes he falls down specifically in that way in some key moments. It was a tough draw, but he was looking focused and relaxed until the final, mainly. I think it's a big monkey on his back. (Also, a minor niggle: Djokovic has not been a heavy favorite coming into the French until this year.)

And Federberg, I agree with you that Nole's performance in the 2013 final at Wimbledon was a bit of a mystery, as to why Murray won in straights, though I disagree that Murray did nothing special. That one, like yesterday's, was a focused and committed performance, that time on Andy's part. But there is no one, including Murray's family, who would have predicted in 3 sets. I don't think the Del Potro SF completely explains how flat Novak was.

Perhaps my recollection of that match is fuzzy Moxie. I just felt that apart from some decent serving from Murray, I don't recall thinking wow.. this guy is playing really well. My abiding memory was realising only when Andy was serving for the match, that Novak wasn't going to step up and actually play at his normal level. Don't get me wrong I was so happy for Andy. Living here in the UK, the general public hadn't really paid much attention to the US Open win, so in a very real way it was being viewed here as Andy getting the monkey off his back and also 77 zillion years of hurt finally being dealt with