2015 ATP World Tour Finals: Federer vs Djokovic

[MikeOne]

Excellent post MikeOne.

and let me add, as a Rafa fan i do think he can try new things but what i have noticed is that what i think may work against Nole, doesn't come natural to Nadal. If you asked me, what would help vs Nole is a bigger serve and flatter groundstrokes. Nole eats up high bouncing spin, he loves Nadal's grounstrokes. Haven't you noticed Nole looks otherworldly vs Nadal? not so much against Murray? even though he owns Murray too? Nole is very comfortable hitting high bouncing shots but not as comfortable handling flatter shots. Serve is also very important and it's how Fed troubles Novak sometimes. The problem is that it's very difficult for Nadal to all of sudden flatten out his strokes consistently and serve big consistently, it doesn't come natural to him. The only time i saw Nadal serve huge consistently was 2010 USO and that was just strange.

So, i just don't see Nadal all of sudden become a flat ball hitter and big server from night to day. In terms of strategy, he should hit more down the line forehands and more inside out forehands, to make Djokovic defensd with his fh more; Nole is formidable off his bh side, when defending.

So i do think he can try things but for him, very challenging and so why i think Nole will always have an advantage

 

[ClayDeath]

Clay Death wrote:
Excellent post MikeOne.

and let me add, as a Rafa fan i do think he can try new things but what i have noticed is that what i think may work against Nole, doesn’t come natural to Nadal. If you asked me, what would help vs Nole is a bigger serve and flatter groundstrokes. Nole eats up high bouncing spin, he loves Nadal’s grounstrokes. Haven’t you noticed Nole looks otherworldly vs Nadal? not so much against Murray? even though he owns Murray too? Nole is very comfortable hitting high bouncing shots but not as comfortable handling flatter shots. Serve is also very important and it’s how Fed troubles Novak sometimes. The problem is that it’s very difficult for Nadal to all of sudden flatten out his strokes consistently and serve big consistently, it doesn’t come natural to him. The only time i saw Nadal serve huge consistently was 2010 USO and that was just strange. So, i just don’t see Nadal all of sudden become a flat ball hitter and big server from night to day. In terms of strategy, he should hit more down the line forehands and more inside out forehands, to make Djokovic defensd with his fh more; Nole is formidable off his bh side, when defending. So i do think he can try things but for him, very challenging and so why i think Nole will always have an advantage

 

this is a Federer vs djokovic thread general mikeone. we may have to continue our amazing discussions about this at the Rafa thread.

 

Federer and Djokovic fans are going to be getting upset with us.

 

[Billie]

Marian spoke to media in Slovakia about WTF.  I was waiting for English translation as I didn't have time to translate it from Serbian:

https://novakindiafans.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/marian-vajda-novak-won-london-masters-despite-not-being-at-his-best/

 

 

 

[Moxie]

Since 2011, when Novak is in lock down, in the zone mode, i haven’t seen him lose a big match. with some exceptions. The other losses were IMO, due to a unstable Djokovic.

I have a few qualms with some of your assessments here of big matches that Novak lost.

2012 USO. Definitely not a good showing vs Murray in finals, he seemed clearly off his best 2013 Wimbledon final. Again, just not as mentally stable as he is when he’s at his best, Murray got some help here. 2013 USO final. Same thing here, Nadal played well but Rafa sort of stole this match from the better player on hard courts 2014: FO. Not Novak’s best showing in FO final.

I don't think you should take anything away from Murray in either of those finals, esp. by saying something as limp as that Djokovic "wasn't at his best."  Murray had control of the USO 2012 final for 2 sets.  Novak mounted an admirable comeback for 2 sets, but Murray was the more committed in the 5th, and broke twice.  And to complain about the Wimbledon is a bit laughable, since Murray won in straights.  It wasn't an impressive Djokovic that showed up that day, but Andy was determined to win that Wimbledon, and was playing very fine grass tennis and deserved that win.  If he got any help, it was that Djokovic didn't make it a 4-set match.  As to the 2013 USO final, you are going for an old trope that Nadal beat the better HC player.  The better HC player at that time was Rafa.  He hadn't lost a HC match all year through the USO, and he swept the USOpen series.  I'll agree that he snuck that 3rd set past Novak by hanging in and taking his opportunities, but Djokovic accommodated him.  And then Nadal took the 4th at 1, so I don't see that he "stole" the match, at all.  He was the better player on the day, and during the course of that season. 

FO semis vs Nadal. Here Novak played brilliantly and without that famous overhead blunder, probably would’ve won. Now i don’t think one silly mistake is enough to claim he wasn’t at his best though, Rafael played unbelievable tennis in 5th set, hitting winner after winner against Novak, of all people. Only a Rafa at his very very best and possibly playing even above his normal best, could beat Novak on this day

I don't see how you can say that Novak lost the 2013 FO semi on "one silly mistake."  This is a myth that some like to foster, and I can't really let you get away with it.  Firstly, Nole wasn't the superior player on the day:  he caught fire in the 2nd to take it, and again when Rafa was serving for the match in the 4th and stumbled.  That net touch in the 5th had nothing whatsoever to do with the outcome of the match, unless you want to say that Novak let it bother him too long, which I agree with.  That particular error came on a deuce point, and they got to deuce again before Nadal won the game, so the point could be considered rather neutral.  It seemed dramatic, because net touches are relatively rare, but it's pretty much the same as any other error.  And I agree that Nadal played much of his RG/clay best on that day...it was a big battle, but to say "only" that could have beaten Djokovic on that day is a bit of hyperbole on your part, as you are talking about the now 9-times RG champion.  Novak never had the answer to Rafa at Roland Garros until this year, when he got a much-diminished version.

Of course, Djokovic is top drawer now, but I don't think you can reach back and say that he only lost those matches because he was a bit off on those days.  You are really discounting the opponents.  (I know this isn't the point of the thread, but, hey, it's the off-season, and we may as well argue about something.   B-)  )

 

[brokenshoelace]

LOL @ Nadal playing "above his normal level" at their 2013 FO semi. He played superb in the final set. But he only played well in the first 4, which would have been enough to win the match in 4 sets (including a 6-1 third set) if he didn't twice fail to serve out the match in the fourth set. This revisionist history is hilarious, and it's typical of Mike to inflate whichever player is currently Federer's biggest obstacle by spinning facts as it suits him.

 

[Federberg]

LOL @ Nadal playing “above his normal level” at their 2013 FO semi. He played superb in the final set. But he only played well in the first 4, which would have been enough to win the match in 4 sets (including a 6-1 third set) if he didn’t twice fail to serve out the match in the fourth set. This revisionist history is hilarious, and it’s typical of Mike to inflate whichever player is currently Federer’s biggest obstacle by spinning facts as it suits him.

I wasn't aware that he was a Federer supporter

 

[brokenshoelace]

Broken_shoelace wrote:
LOL @ Nadal playing “above his normal level” at their 2013 FO semi. He played superb in the final set. But he only played well in the first 4, which would have been enough to win the match in 4 sets (including a 6-1 third set) if he didn’t twice fail to serve out the match in the fourth set. This revisionist history is hilarious, and it’s typical of Mike to inflate whichever player is currently Federer’s biggest obstacle by spinning facts as it suits him.

I wasn’t aware that he was a Federer supporter

Lol he's not. He's actually one of the biggest Federer detractors. The point is any time someone is getting the better of Fed, Mike starts worshipping the ground they walk on. Case in point, his see-sawing in fandom between Rafa and Novak, based on whoever is having the better season. Mike is originally, a Sampras fan. Shocking, I know.