2014 Masters Series Rome Final: Djokovic v. Nadal

What is your pick?


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    18
  • Poll closed .

DarthFed

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tented said:
the AntiPusher said:
nehmeth said:
This is great for Novak. This match will be in Ralf's mind when they meet in Par. Unless Fed knocks Nole out in the semis again. :(

Congrats to Djoker, he deserves to Win. Not, this match won't be in Rafael' head , it's just another day at the office when he wasn't able to finish the job. No big deal, Rafa will just have to take a few days off and go back to work by lacing em up Wednesday morning practice.

A Rafa-fan mantra: Best of 5 ... best of 5 ... best of 5 ... best of 5 ...

If it's another 2011 the Rafa-fan mantra might be "Go Roger"
 

tented

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DarthFed said:
tented said:
the AntiPusher said:
nehmeth said:
This is great for Novak. This match will be in Ralf's mind when they meet in Par. Unless Fed knocks Nole out in the semis again. :(

Congrats to Djoker, he deserves to Win. Not, this match won't be in Rafael' head , it's just another day at the office when he wasn't able to finish the job. No big deal, Rafa will just have to take a few days off and go back to work by lacing em up Wednesday morning practice.

A Rafa-fan mantra: Best of 5 ... best of 5 ... best of 5 ... best of 5 ...

If it's another 2011 the Rafa-fan mantra might be "Go Roger"

:laydownlaughing Touche.

However ...

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2325&pid=101658#pid101658
 

GameSetAndMath

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tented said:
1972Murat said:
Also a quick kudos here to Nestor (41) and Zimonjic (37) for their second Masters 1000 title in a row. Aging like fine wine those two...

There's clearly a chemistry between them. I'll add that they beat the Bryans en route to these titles, for those who didn't notice.

It's too bad we don't get to see more doubles. Just the little bit the Tennis Channel airs now and then.

I don't even know why they split a few years ago. They are a powerful combo.
 

Front242

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Kieran said:
Cali, please tell me that you don't think that the player who hits most winners in a match is by definition the better player. :nono

It's the player who wins most sets in a match, the player who wins the match, is the better player...

Actually you could outhit/outplay your opponent all match and still lose in 2 tiebreaks because of a few poor errors at the end but technically you were the better player throughout and the opponent often has little to do with the errors made in tiebreaks that ultimately determine the winner.

But generally yeah of course the guy who wins more sets is better. Just saying it's not always the case. Why else do players win tight matches and say they got lucky? 'cos the barrage of winners from the opponent stopped just in time for them to make two lame errors and lose 2 straight tiebreaks.
 

masterclass

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The Roman Wind God was merciful to Nole today and this tournament...

Final Match start time 4:21 PM
Final Match end time 6:41 PM
Winds from the WSW-SW - Gusts - N/A - cross wind from right to left on the viewing screen

Time - Wind Speed
4:50 PM - 12.7 mph
5:50 PM - 10.4 mph
6:50 PM - 8.1 mph

Not saying this is why Nole was able to beat Rafa today, as there are obviously other reasons, but in such a close match, it sure didn't hurt to have more manageable conditions to give himself a chance to play at his best.

Take a look at Wednesday* during the early afternoon for comparison.
Winds from the North - directly behind the player at the bottom of the viewing screen.

Time - Wind Speed - Wind Gust
11:50 AM - 23.0 mph - 36.8 mph
12:50 PM - 19.6 mph - 34.5 mph
1:50 PM - 18.4 mph - 33.4 mph
2:50 PM - 19.6 mph - 31.1 mph
3:50 PM - 16.1 mph - 27.6 mph

*Djokovic didn't play Wednesday, played Thursday after 9 pm when the winds had died down to less than 7 mph, Friday's winds after 4 pm were under 5 mph, Saturday's winds at 2 pm, similar to today

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Front242

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^ Yeah, poor old Roger got the brunt of bad conditions.
 

tented

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Front242 said:
Kieran said:
Cali, please tell me that you don't think that the player who hits most winners in a match is by definition the better player. :nono

It's the player who wins most sets in a match, the player who wins the match, is the better player...

Actually you could outhit/outplay your opponent all match and still lose in 2 tiebreaks because of a few poor errors at the end ...

That's essentially how Karlovic beat Federer in Cincinnati several years ago.
 

Front242

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^ Exactly yup. Just saying it's not always the guy who wins more sets who was better.
 

masterclass

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Front242 said:
^ Yeah, poor old Roger got the brunt of bad conditions.

Yeah, as did his opponent, Chardy. But Federer is normally one of the best players in the wind because of his usually impeccable footwork. But on such a day, no matter if you are good in the wind or not, it's a crap shoot, and it's difficult to be at your best no matter who you are. You can only hope to handle it better than the opponent and be a little lucky that it doesn't gust at the wrong time. :)

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Kieran

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Front242 said:
^ Exactly yup. Just saying it's not always the guy who wins more sets who was better.

It is.

The nature of competition is Darwinian. This isn't a beauty pageant. Aesthetics is strictly for the highlights reel...
 

Murat Baslamisli

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You can even win a match in tennis with winning fewer points than your opponent , let alone "beauty" issues and such. You win the important points, Bob's your uncle.

Hey I am still not over Edberg losing to Stich at Wimby 91 without dropping his serve once. Feces take place.
 

Kieran

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Exactly. And if you hit more winners than your opponent and still lose, then you were weaker in the areas of play that decided the match. Hitting more winners, in other words, is not enough on its own to judge somebody as the "better player..."
 

coban

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1972Murat said:
ricardo said:
Sundaymorningguy said:
ricardo said:
nehmeth said:
This is great for Novak. This match will be in Ralf's mind when they meet in Par. Unless Fed knocks Nole out in the semis again. :(

a bit pointless for Fed to beat Djoker, since he would go to meat grinder in the final.... but wait, there are still others who are capable of beating either of them on their day.

I don't know that Federer's mind will be on RG probably more like Wimbledon. Federer has a lot going on in his personal life with the birth of the twins, so I can see maybe another fade at the French.

I am sure Fed won't be 100% mentally or physically but will have no regrets about the distractions.....


I agree %100. The other day I was thinking about this... two sets of twins, a happy life, an amazing career...I mean what can possibly motivate Roger any more, make him maintain an edge still? I could not come up with anything ...I mean, how much can you really LOVE competing after a certain point in life?

From now on, I am watching Roger with minimal expectations, just enjoying his beautiful game.:)

Another set of twin -- with different sexes (one boy, one girl)
 

the AntiPusher

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tented said:
the AntiPusher said:
nehmeth said:
This is great for Novak. This match will be in Ralf's mind when they meet in Par. Unless Fed knocks Nole out in the semis again. :(

Congrats to Djoker, he deserves to Win. Not, this match won't be in Rafael' head , it's just another day at the office when he wasn't able to finish the job. No big deal, Rafa will just have to take a few days off and go back to work by lacing em up Wednesday morning practice.

A Rafa-fan mantra: Best of 5 ... best of 5 ... best of 5 ... best of 5 ...

Yep buddy..I saw that you thought it was gonna be a tough day, how do u feel about Rafa vs Djoker at RG
 

herios

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Very happy to see Nole winning again in Roma and doing it by coming back from a set down
 

nehmeth

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tented said:
Kiu said:
JesuslookslikeBorg. said:
who said rafa was not down on speed.

I think Rafa is hiding injury , he is hush hush about such things, he is not 100%

OMG, please don't go there! :please:

:snigger It's always fun to go back over the thread to see what I missed during the height of everyone posting... this one - too good!
 

mrzz

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Kieran said:
Exactly. And if you hit more winners than your opponent and still lose, then you were weaker in the areas of play that decided the match. Hitting more winners, in other words, is not enough on its own to judge somebody as the "better player..."

This is obviously right in general, but there may be exceptions, triggered by lucky accidents (e.g. netcords), bad calls, injuries, sudden wind bursts (!) on decisive moments of a match, etc and etc. But you know this.

In the end is always the same discussion: if the notion of "better player" includes keeping calm and playing well at the decisive moments, and some player looses a match by failing to do so, in that case he hardly can be called the better player. If you exclude this, than yes, the "better player" can loose a lot of matches. Things can get too subjective in this case... so I would rather stick to the winner is (most of the times) the better (at that match).

But keep in mind that numbers, and black and white who won/who lost, also have their short comings. To give an example, If player A has a 5x2 H2H against player B, who has a 4X1 H2H against player C, who by its turn has a 5x1 H2H against player A, who is the "better"? I know there's a lot of things to take in to account... that is precisely the point. Sometimes objective analysis is not enough. If numbers (and who won, who lost) could tell the whole story why would we debate?
 

Kieran

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Good post, mrzz! :)

mrzz said:
If player A has a 5x2 H2H against player B, who has a 4X1 H2H against player C, who by its turn has a 5x1 H2H against player A, who is the "better"?

Rafa. ;)
 

Fiero425

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mrzz said:
Kieran said:
Exactly. And if you hit more winners than your opponent and still lose, then you were weaker in the areas of play that decided the match. Hitting more winners, in other words, is not enough on its own to judge somebody as the "better player..."

This is obviously right in general, but there may be exceptions, triggered by lucky accidents (e.g. netcords), bad calls, injuries, sudden wind bursts (!) on decisive moments of a match, etc and etc. But you know this.

In the end is always the same discussion: if the notion of "better player" includes keeping calm and playing well at the decisive moments, and some player looses a match by failing to do so, in that case he hardly can be called the better player. If you exclude this, than yes, the "better player" can loose a lot of matches. Things can get too subjective in this case... so I would rather stick to the winner is (most of the times) the better (at that match).

But keep in mind that numbers, and black and white who won/who lost, also have their short comings. To give an example, If player A has a 5x2 H2H against player B, who has a 4X1 H2H against player C, who by its turn has a 5x1 H2H against player A, who is the "better"? I know there's a lot of things to take in to account... that is precisely the point. Sometimes objective analysis is not enough. If numbers (and who won, who lost) could tell the whole story why would we debate?

I think I touched on the subject of H2H and matchups a while back! As much as we put Laver on a pedestal, he was owned by Lew Hoad; at one time 0-8! The only reason we don't know more about the guy is he just missed the USO win in the '59 final to complete his Grand Slam and went off to war or something! In turn Laver owned Ashe even when the old man was past it and only giving brief glimpses of his legendary play by the mid '70's! Going back to that era, even Rosewall wouldn't succumb to old age taking match after match against a seasoned and talented Ilie Nastase! I think Ilie only won once that I saw and it was on clay! Moving ahead 20 years, Sampras was being perceived as the best ever for a while; even without a FO victory; 1 semi and 2 quarters IIRC! He was still vulnerable to a couple players you would think couldn't compete! One of them was Richard Krajicek of the Netherlands! Everytime I saw Pete go up against Richard, they just got into this power tennis game where the Euro pretty much just blew him off the court; including his win over Pete at Wimbledon in '96! These matches were inexplicable then and they still are! :nono :puzzled :huh:
 

calitennis127

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Kieran said:
Exactly. And if you hit more winners than your opponent and still lose, then you were weaker in the areas of play that decided the match. Hitting more winners, in other words, is not enough on its own to judge somebody as the "better player..."

I never said it was. But it also isn't meaningless either, which is how you and Murat evidently see winner counts.

If you have one player who routinely hits more winners than the other, and the two players are each well-rounded in their skills (as Djokovic and Nadal are), then the one who hits more winners on a regular basis is the better player at his peak.