2013 Monte Carlo F: Nadal vs. Djokovic

[Mastoor]

 

[Denis]

Hehe, those faces of the others made me laugh, Söderling, Monfils and Murray especially. I like Japanese cinema. Did you make it yourself?

 

[Mastoor]

Maybe I should ask it differently: Does anyone think it's a good idea to play Barca, Madrid, and Rome leading up to the French Open?

No.

I'd skip Barca...

It could be a good idea for him to play barcelona. It's sure title no No1e to beat him

This is how No1e does that:

 

[Mastoor]

Hehe, those faces of the others made me laugh, Söderling, Monfils and Murray especially. I like Japanese cinema. Did you make it yourself?

No, it curcles around since yesterday. It's the best film ever made Sevn Samurai by Akiro Kurosawa.

 

[Denis]

Maybe I should ask it differently: Does anyone think it's a good idea to play Barca, Madrid, and Rome leading up to the French Open?

No.

I'd skip Barca...

Me too.

He said he's playing Barca, so I thought the next best thing would be to forgo Madrid since it plays the least like RG's surface.

That would be the next option.

Also, I wouldn't get hooked on superstitious musings that he 'has to beat' Novak before Paris. He doesn't. He has to improve his game as the priority, then he can plot his course against Novak...

I agree. Nadal seems very relaxed. Maybe even a bit too relaxed. And the French is obviously the big prize, the rest is nearly practice in comparison. He will like to defend one of his clay titles though, just for the rankings. If he wants to have a shot at the No 1 ranking around this time next year.

 

[Mastoor]

That's clever! My only critique is that they had Nalbandian dressed as a Samurai instead of Sumo.

You funny.

 

[Denis]

Hehe, those faces of the others made me laugh, Söderling, Monfils and Murray especially. I like Japanese cinema. Did you make it yourself?

No, it curcles around since yesterday. It's the best film ever made Sevn Samurai by Akiro Kurosawa.

Ah yes, I've seen it. Good movie, a tatch long for modern standards . Kurosawa is an excellent director, inspired a lot of western movies too.

 

[Mastoor]

Hehe, those faces of the others made me laugh, Söderling, Monfils and Murray especially. I like Japanese cinema. Did you make it yourself?

No, it curcles around since yesterday. It's the best film ever made Sevn Samurai by Akiro Kurosawa.

Ah yes, I've seen it. Good movie, a tatch long for modern standards . Kurosawa is an excellent director, inspired a lot of western movies too.

Exactly, this one was remade in Hollywood as Magnificent Seven, but it couldn't compare to the original

 

[kskate2]

Why is Muzza's mouth open and Delpo's hair like the Monkees?

 

[Mastoor]

Re: previous discussion about how much the weather can affect the outcome:

Look at what Novak was doing to Nadal in the first set before the courts dried up. That's how much tennis is affected by little things. The king of clay almost got bagelled on a court he hadn't lost on in 8 years. The ball was staying so low, Rafa's forehand had no action, and Novak's flat shots were so penetrating. Some of his DTL forehands had to be picked up by Rafa off of his shoelaces. When the courts dried up, Rafa made it more competitive, but ultimately, despite some lapses, Novak was too in the zone.

I feel after such a slow start, it was always going to be an uphill battle for Nadal. Some tactical adjustments like hitting his forehand a little more up the line, and using the backhand slice down the line to Novak's backhand were fruitful and almost won him the 2nd set, but with so many errors off of the backhand side, and a relatively tame service day was always going to make it difficult. Novak was putting so much pressure with his returning, and pinned Rafa behind his backhand, who despite hitting it well as off late, just couldn't hit with enough consistency off of that side (at least he tried to hit through it as opposed to dropping it short and getting killed).

Nadal's forehand not firing (especially his hesitancy to pull the trigger on the inside out forehand) didn't help matters. Because it's clay, Rafa just wouldn't pull the trigger early because that's not how he plays on this surface (by contrast, he was willing to make that adjustment at the US Open and AO when they played). I can't blame him to be honest, and I don't think he should have necessarily pulled the trigger early, but ultimately, there were too many instances in the second set where he worked himself into a position to hit the winner and just didn't have the confidence to go for it.

It was obvious that he wasn't defending as well as he did against Novak in say, Rome of last year, and Novak wasn't giving him nearly as many unforced errors, so Rafa had to get more aggressive with the forehand. He wasn't playing good enough to do that, and his opponent was playing too good to give him many chances at an adjustment.

As far as Novak is concerned, it was the typical winning strategy against Rafa, and it often boils down to execution (he wasn't executing that well last year, and lost 3 in a row). He was much sharper this year, and won. Serve out wide on both sides, open up the court, and dominate from there. He makes it look quite simple actually, when he's playing that well.

When they inevitably play again on clay this year, Rafa needs to play more to the middle, give Novak less angles, and get that inside out forehand going. More importantly, he needs better placement on his serving. Every service game is going to be a struggle otherwise.

I don't see that people discussed why Nadal choked in the 12th game of the second set. He seemed to be playing fine up until that stage when he served for the set and got broken to go to the TB that he lost 7-1. Is it No1e in his head again?

 

[kskate2]

Re: previous discussion about how much the weather can affect the outcome:

Look at what Novak was doing to Nadal in the first set before the courts dried up. That's how much tennis is affected by little things. The king of clay almost got bagelled on a court he hadn't lost on in 8 years. The ball was staying so low, Rafa's forehand had no action, and Novak's flat shots were so penetrating. Some of his DTL forehands had to be picked up by Rafa off of his shoelaces. When the courts dried up, Rafa made it more competitive, but ultimately, despite some lapses, Novak was too in the zone.

I feel after such a slow start, it was always going to be an uphill battle for Nadal. Some tactical adjustments like hitting his forehand a little more up the line, and using the backhand slice down the line to Novak's backhand were fruitful and almost won him the 2nd set, but with so many errors off of the backhand side, and a relatively tame service day was always going to make it difficult. Novak was putting so much pressure with his returning, and pinned Rafa behind his backhand, who despite hitting it well as off late, just couldn't hit with enough consistency off of that side (at least he tried to hit through it as opposed to dropping it short and getting killed).

Nadal's forehand not firing (especially his hesitancy to pull the trigger on the inside out forehand) didn't help matters. Because it's clay, Rafa just wouldn't pull the trigger early because that's not how he plays on this surface (by contrast, he was willing to make that adjustment at the US Open and AO when they played). I can't blame him to be honest, and I don't think he should have necessarily pulled the trigger early, but ultimately, there were too many instances in the second set where he worked himself into a position to hit the winner and just didn't have the confidence to go for it.

It was obvious that he wasn't defending as well as he did against Novak in say, Rome of last year, and Novak wasn't giving him nearly as many unforced errors, so Rafa had to get more aggressive with the forehand. He wasn't playing good enough to do that, and his opponent was playing too good to give him many chances at an adjustment.

As far as Novak is concerned, it was the typical winning strategy against Rafa, and it often boils down to execution (he wasn't executing that well last year, and lost 3 in a row). He was much sharper this year, and won. Serve out wide on both sides, open up the court, and dominate from there. He makes it look quite simple actually, when he's playing that well.

When they inevitably play again on clay this year, Rafa needs to play more to the middle, give Novak less angles, and get that inside out forehand going. More importantly, he needs better placement on his serving. Every service game is going to be a struggle otherwise.

I don't see that people discussed why Nadal choked in the 12th game of the second set. He seemed to be playing fine up until that stage when he served for the set and got broken to go to the TB that he lost 7-1. Is it No1e in his head again?

Truth be told the choking as you call it started well before the 12th game. At all the critical junctures of the match, he was not able to get over the top. At the end of the 1st set he was broken, the 8th game and 12th game of the 2nd as well as the breaker.

 

[Mastoor]

Re: previous discussion about how much the weather can affect the outcome:

Look at what Novak was doing to Nadal in the first set before the courts dried up. That's how much tennis is affected by little things. The king of clay almost got bagelled on a court he hadn't lost on in 8 years. The ball was staying so low, Rafa's forehand had no action, and Novak's flat shots were so penetrating. Some of his DTL forehands had to be picked up by Rafa off of his shoelaces. When the courts dried up, Rafa made it more competitive, but ultimately, despite some lapses, Novak was too in the zone.

I feel after such a slow start, it was always going to be an uphill battle for Nadal. Some tactical adjustments like hitting his forehand a little more up the line, and using the backhand slice down the line to Novak's backhand were fruitful and almost won him the 2nd set, but with so many errors off of the backhand side, and a relatively tame service day was always going to make it difficult. Novak was putting so much pressure with his returning, and pinned Rafa behind his backhand, who despite hitting it well as off late, just couldn't hit with enough consistency off of that side (at least he tried to hit through it as opposed to dropping it short and getting killed).

Nadal's forehand not firing (especially his hesitancy to pull the trigger on the inside out forehand) didn't help matters. Because it's clay, Rafa just wouldn't pull the trigger early because that's not how he plays on this surface (by contrast, he was willing to make that adjustment at the US Open and AO when they played). I can't blame him to be honest, and I don't think he should have necessarily pulled the trigger early, but ultimately, there were too many instances in the second set where he worked himself into a position to hit the winner and just didn't have the confidence to go for it.

It was obvious that he wasn't defending as well as he did against Novak in say, Rome of last year, and Novak wasn't giving him nearly as many unforced errors, so Rafa had to get more aggressive with the forehand. He wasn't playing good enough to do that, and his opponent was playing too good to give him many chances at an adjustment.

As far as Novak is concerned, it was the typical winning strategy against Rafa, and it often boils down to execution (he wasn't executing that well last year, and lost 3 in a row). He was much sharper this year, and won. Serve out wide on both sides, open up the court, and dominate from there. He makes it look quite simple actually, when he's playing that well.

When they inevitably play again on clay this year, Rafa needs to play more to the middle, give Novak less angles, and get that inside out forehand going. More importantly, he needs better placement on his serving. Every service game is going to be a struggle otherwise.

I don't see that people discussed why Nadal choked in the 12th game of the second set. He seemed to be playing fine up until that stage when he served for the set and got broken to go to the TB that he lost 7-1. Is it No1e in his head again?

Truth be told the choking as you call it started well before the 12th game. At all the critical junctures of the match, he was not able to get over the top. At the end of the 1st set he was broken, the 8th game and 12th game of the 2nd as well as the breaker.

But then No1e played some superb tennis towards the end of the match so question is how much Rafa could do against it.

 

[Billie]

Really happy for Nole, obviously. This meant a lot to him and his fans. 8 out of 9 masters 1000 won, very impressive.

Sadly for Nadal the streak had to stop at some time, but his words after the match were very gracious.

 

[Didi]

This year's MC final (and also Rome/Madrid 2011) reminded me of a great tv series which I used to love. Nadal played the role of Wile E. Coyote and Djokovic was the Road Runner. And no matter what trap Rafa set for Nole in those 3 finals, the Serb routinely made a mockery out of them with a compelling grin on his face. In those 3 finals Rafa threw everything at him, like Wile E. did to the Road Runner with rockets, bombs, rocks, dynamite, high bouncing trampoline kits, flesh-eating seed, super glue, magnets, guns, invisible paint, poisoned food and all the traps you could imagine and yet it had no effect at the end. All the efforts just pulverized and deflagrated. It affected Wile E. badly and he turned into an even bigger lunatic trying to desperately kill him with self-made 'Do it yourself Remote Control Missile-Bombs'. Let's hope Rafa finds his calm.

 

[brokenshoelace]

But then No1e played some superb tennis towards the end of the match so question is how much Rafa could do against it.

Agreed.

When Rafa was serving for the set at 6-5, Nole stepped up to the baseline and stayed there for the rest of the match. It's exactly where he stood when he went on the 5-0 run in the first set. He cut down the silly errors and started going for his shots. He broke Rafa's serve (at love) for 6 all and went on a 7-1 run in the tiebreak.

Yeah. Thing is, you can only raise your level to meet your opponent's so much. Meaning that if you're playing average tennis (as Nadal was in the opening set), and your opponent is playing very good, you can probably kick it a gear, play "well" and make your opponent "less good" (It sounds too simplistic, I know). Which is what Nadal kinda did in the second set.

However, once Novak kicked it a gear further towards the end of the match, it just wasn't possible for Nadal to have an answer at the level he was playing at, nor was he in good enough form (during the match itself) to realistically meet Novak's (very high) level. In many ways, it's what Nadal referred to when he said "you have to play 100% against him." Meaning Nadal really needs to be on top of his game to be able to adjust to Novak in this kind of form (which I didn't think was necessarily out of this world due to the patchy play in the second set, but his high points were REALLY high).

 

[Haelfix]

I finally watched the replay. Great match, as is often the case between the two.

The point patterns are definitely in Novak's favor, which is why people think that Rafa at times starts choking. Of course its not choking, its just an indictiment of a matchup problem and a certain level of game.

I thought that Rafa played a much smarter match in the RG final the year before in that he actually went out of his comfort zone to change up how points were being constructed, however here it was Novak who was ritualistically taking the initiative and never allowing Rafa to either be aggressive or to be the one who has the advantage of changing it up.

Meanwhile the pure baseline war is being won by Novak, as well as the serve war. Rafa looks a step slow, and knows it, and I think he's visibly frustrated by what to do. There were multiple important points where he hesitated in his footwork.

 

[the AntiPusher]

But then No1e played some superb tennis towards the end of the match so question is how much Rafa could do against it.

Agreed.

When Rafa was serving for the set at 6-5, Nole stepped up to the baseline and stayed there for the rest of the match. It's exactly where he stood when he went on the 5-0 run in the first set. He cut down the silly errors and started going for his shots. He broke Rafa's serve (at love) for 6 all and went on a 7-1 run in the tiebreak.

Yeah. Thing is, you can only raise your level to meet your opponent's so much. Meaning that if you're playing average tennis (as Nadal was in the opening set), and your opponent is playing very good, you can probably kick it a gear, play "well" and make your opponent "less good" (It sounds too simplistic, I know). Which is what Nadal kinda did in the second set.

However, once Novak kicked it a gear further towards the end of the match, it just wasn't possible for Nadal to have an answer at the level he was playing at, nor was he in good enough form (during the match itself) to realistically meet Novak's (very high) level. In many ways, it's what Nadal referred to when he said "you have to play 100% against him." Meaning Nadal really needs to be on top of his game to be able to adjust to Novak in this kind of form (which I didn't think was necessarily out of this world due to the patchy play in the second set, but his high points were REALLY high).

"When Rafa was serving for the set at 6-5, Nole stepped up to the baseline and stayed there for the rest of the match."


The 12 game.. Here is Rafa serving sequence.. 1st serve.(A slow spinning from the left hander to the right hander returner's forhand that wasnt a good angle, Djoker crushes the ball the opposite court, pulls Rafa out the court position and crushes a fh down the line winner.. 0-15 Djoker) (the proper serve:Rafa should have serve a flat body serve to begin that point)
Next Rafa tries a spinning serve wide that is called a fault.. 2nd serve a slow spinner that Djoker hits a cc bh winner that he crushes 0-30..( the proper serve should have been a body serve)

Rafa serves a spinner up the middle of the court, misses and 2nd serve is a slow spinner that Djoker jumps on, hits inside out to Rafa's Bh which Rafa blocks back in to play but djoker controls the point.. 0-40 ( the proper serve should have been the flat serve to Djoker fh.. it has been his best serve when he need free points all tourney, reference the Tsonga match.)

Rafa serves another slow spinner that kick to far wide and his 2nd serve had to be a slow spinner that was less than 85 mph hour.. Djoker steps aside and hits a flat hard ball to Rafa's bh that he blocks back and never gets control of the rally. 0-40 game Djoker (The proper serve would have been a flat serve up the middle to move djoker, if not executed a 2nd serve body serve.

Rafa did not choke but he didnt address his serve game with any type of smart aggression.. He has to start to hit more flat serves and body serves.. He needs to work on mixing his serves.. He made it much too easy for Djoker to break his serve. I would have rather seen Rafa just go for it than to just donate his service game. To be a good server you have to have the mentality of a pitcher.. you dont have to serve like Sampras or Federer but more like Agassi or even Ferrer who mixes his serve well to be a sub 5'9 guy. I am only 6 feet and I can still bring it 115-120 late in matrches( i am no where as conditioned as anyone in the top 200 or 1000 but I serve with attitude.. its my bread and butter). You have to make the returner adjust to your serve not let him stand near the baseline but if that is his "Waterloo" than so be it.. God bless him because I am going to make him pay dearly for standing that close, I guarantee you this is what is in my mind. (flat serves to his the returner's navel(belly button) all day long, no way he can take control of the point, not on my serve.. not this day)

Rafa needs a serving consultant because this is just basic tennis strategy, IMO.

 

[Kieran]

It's got nothing to do with hoo-doos or voodoo or Nadal having an attack of the mental heeby-jeebies: he just isn't at that level yet. He was playing the best player in the world and he's still stretching his pins after a seven month lay-off. His serve was like Roger's backhand, a shot that wasn't troubling Novak and in the 6-5 game, Nole stepped up and creamed him. There's a difference in level at the moment.

Nor should we think that Novak is the best in the world on clay and Nadal has to play his best to keep with him. When Nadal plays his best on clay, the others are glad to win a set. He's not at his best now, but we hope he will be before Paris.

Novak, however, is playing great and looks set to have a strong clay season again this year...

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I am not saying Nadal is back to his best levels but seriously he has made the finals of all of the tournaments he has played. He has won 3 of them. I think it is time to stop making excuses for him. Djokovic hasn't exactly been playing amazing tennis for the most part this year. I do think Djokovic is going to buckle down and make the clay and the French a top priority. The last one you have to win is always the one you fight tooth and nail to win, so Rafa better be ready. Djokovic better have plan B ready as Rafa will surely learn from each encounter with Djokovic he faces before the French Open.

 

[shawnbm]

First of all, I will say that I have not seen the match and was surprised by the outcome--not because I did not think Nole was incapable of pulling it off, but because Rafa has been the hottest player on the planet since the AO and Novak had a dislocated bone in his ankle earlier this week and, presumably, was in less than top shape. I have read all of the posts and take them with whatever bias there is in some of them--we all know who roots for who and colors the commentary accordingly.

Nevertheless, Nadal may be reaching that time that Roger reached a few years back. For no apparent reason other than the passage of time, there are certain players who are no longer intimidated, no longer "afraid" to reach up and take the trophy, no longer shackled by uncertainty in the big moments and no longer "accepting" that they will probably lose. Federer had that aura for years and Rafa did too, specially on clay, but does anyone around here really believe that Novak thinks he is going to lose to Nadal on clay the next time they play? I would think Grigor is chomping at the bit to take another shot, and I am sure Murray is tired of losing to him too. Time marches on and Nadal is going to lose on clay more than he used to. There is no shame in this, just as Roger losing a bit more was not the end of the world back in 2007 and into 2008. He has never been as dominant again since 2007, even though he managed to win five more slams.

From what I have seen, Nadal is playing at or near the level he was at early last year. He is a player who feeds off of confidence, which feeds off of a lot of match play and wins. He has done all of that this year--IW is not an event he wins nearly as much as so many clay court events. He did so this year and looked very good doing so. He looked stellar during matches I saw in MC, but the day was coming. I recall commenting about how the end of Rafa's clay court streak in 2007 (loss to Roger in Hamburg--including a bagel set in last set) was not a harbinger of Nadal no longer being the man on clay, although I did not think Roger might be more dangerous at the FO than the prior two years (Fed lost in four sets again that year). I think the same holds true for Nole-Rafa now--Novak is probably going to feel pretty good and confident, but Nadal on clay, and especially at RG, will be the clay holy grail for as long as he is at or near the top. I see no reason to still not make him the favorite, just as was the case when Roger beat him in 2007 in the run-up to Paris.