2013 Monte Carlo F: Nadal vs. Djokovic

[britbox]

My suspicion is Rafa doesn't beat Nole again this summer. Huge statement by the Serb.

 

[Andrew William]

Congratulations to Djokovic! He broke a streak that will likely never be paralleled in the sport again. Coming into it, I thought it could go either way, but I leaned in favor of Nadal. Sometimes you have to see it with your very own eyes when someone wins a tournament as many times as the King of Clay stood victorious in Monte Carlo. Onto the match itself!

Nadal

I think everyone can agree that Rafa is not completely back to his old self. And even that term is relative. The Nadal of 08' we shall never see again. By 'old self' I am referring to the player who graced our televisions before the long hiatus. Clearly his mobility is still hampered to some degree and there maybe some rust to work off and despite his early successes on clay and at Indian Wells, Rafael when faced with truly elite competition those tiny flaws enlarge significantly.

His buggy-whip forehand was pretty good. As some posters made mention of earlier, when it got sunny in the second set that forehand was noticeably more effective. I clearly remember one cross court forehand followed by a dtl monster that Djokovic (as fast as he is) could not hope to reach. The one thing I want to comment on is his tendency to overwork the topspin on his forehand on a number of occasions, driving it right into the net when he was attempting to win the point. I don't recall this theme happening with such regularity in past matches for the Spaniard. Perhaps it is just a case of him lacking court time, but could it be that his footwork is a little off and he's not quite in ideal position to attempt these 'particular' forehands? I'll have to go back and look, but I was a little mystified by it.

As seen in the Dimitrov match, again I found Rafa struggling from the backhand side. He is as bad there as I have ever seen. Djokovic routinely exploited it. Perhaps the best adjustment Nadal made in the match was to slice practically everything from that wing. I don't think Nadal couldn't drive the bh if necessary, just that his mobility was such and the placement of Nole's shots were such that Nadal could not execute the backhand without being way out of position and at Novak's mercy afterward. Thus the slice, the perfect counter and one I believe we will see exclusively when these two meet again.

Nadal has continued to struggle at the service line. The one glaring moment was the df at a critical juncture which you rarely ever see from Rafa. Many have harped on this and it is true -- Nadal at this stage in his career needs to win cheap points now more than ever on his serve and that just didn't happen.

Djokovic

I saw a confident player from the onset. He knew what he wanted to do, and he executed it. Work Nadal's bh ruthlessly, then go out wide to the fh with gusto. Nadal would later on counter this with the slice, and that kept the rallies neutral. Nole wasn't afraid when Rafa attacked his backhand, keeping him at bay with tremendous control, changing direction at will. Nole stayed aggressive for most of the match, putting pressure on Nadal, keeping him off balance and finishing at net when the moment was ripe. Overall, I didn't think this was one of Djoker's best performances. He played well enough to win and got the job done.

I enjoyed Monte Carlo immensely. One of the best clay venues around in my opinion. Time for work. Adios!

 

[Kieran]

Thanks for posting AW. I enjoyed reading it.

Ditto!

 

[herios]

On Saturday, when i browsed my twitter news, I saw D. Cahill, whom I follow posting that he picks Nole to win on Sunday. I was still skeptical, due to the fact that Nole started so tentatively this event and despite improving trough the week, I doubted he'll be as sharp as he was. Now i have a pretty good feeling for the rest of the clay season, He'll try to make the most of it.
And next time, I will try to make some $$ of Cahill's picks:exclamation:

 

[Andrew William]

Appreciate it Nehmeth & Kieran. The chess match that goes on between these two is just so darn fun to watch. I hope Nadal can continue to steadily improve and gain a bit of ground to make the matches truly epic as they once were.

Great interviews. Enjoyed them.

 

[calitennis127]

A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

Again, Nadal gave us yet another example, in terms of psychological prowess, of why he has achieved the degree of results that he has. Combined with his stamina, this mental constancy and persistence explains why he has 11 Slams and all the MS and other titles he does, more than simply raw tennis talent in terms of shotmaking. Without question, Nadal is elite in that respect, but he is not is so far superior to the rest of the Top 10 that, based on shotmaking alone, he should have 11 Slams to Murray's 1, or Delpo's 1, or Tsonga's and Berdych's zilch.

So, what am I referring to? Well, the end of the first set. Only Nadal - and I mean only Nadal - would have made matters so complicated with the score 5-0 Djokovic and 15-40 on Nadal's own serve. "If memory serves me right", as the fabulous announcer Jason Goodall would put it, Nadal forced Djokovic to 8 set points before he finally took the first set.

How did he do it? Well, for the most part, by suddenly making pinpoint first serves time after time and drawing return errors from Djokovic.

Again, I cannot stress enough how this is one of those little things that in terms of tennis ability isn't the most noteworthy item, but in terms of psychological quality, it is immensely significant in determining the outcomes of tight matches, i.e. who wins and who loses, plain and simple. I know that Djokovic and Murray are quite persistent, as has been Federer at times throughout his career, but none of them can really match Nadal when it comes to this gnat-like quality to just never go away and suddenly start making shots at the most inopportune moments for opponents. It is remarkable what Nadal forced Djokovic to do to simply conclude a set that he had dominated to take the lead to 5-0: he forced him to grind and push like it was a 4th set tiebreak after 4 hours on court.

Djokovic being who Djokovic is now, he knows that to consistently beat Nadal, especially on clay, he must be this strong in response to Nadal. So in this case, he simply refused to back down and eventually forced so many set points that Nadal ultimately hit a double fault - but note, that wasn't even Djokovic winning the point; that was Nadal completely losing it by himself.

The end of the first set was a testament to Nadal's psychological strength, mental constancy, mental stability, and ceaseless persistence. It didn't win him the match in this case, but in so many others it has, and for that reason it is noteworthy.

 

[Riotbeard]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

I am curious to see how Nadal fans will be offended by this. Interesting points Cali. I agree that mental strength and physicality are Nadal strengths that make him standout from the rest of the field, and certainly not his shotmaking ability, although he obviously can do this to some degree.

 

[Kieran]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

My brother-in-law has the stubbornness of an ox who just took a dose of his stubborn tablets. He's fitter and stronger than that ox, too. Could drag a train out a dark tunnel. I think if I put a racket in his hand he could win against Nole. Seems like that's all it takes to make a highly disciplined and super-skilled top tennis athlete to lose a few points...

---

I am curious to see how Nadal fans will be offended by this. Interesting points Cali. I agree that mental strength and physicality are Nadal strengths that make him standout from the rest of the field, and certainly not his shotmaking ability, although he obviously can do this to some degree.

I would doubt anyone is offended, it's just that Cali reduces Nadal's game a little. Just a smidgen. A tad, I'd say.

You'll never find me argue that tennis is a game of mere mechanics and match-up, because big matches are famously won between the ears, and not between the lines, but Nadal has more to him than just a giant heart and a big soppy kids desire to please his uncle...

 

[herios]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

For me, in this mtch, is not Rafa's mental strength which is glaring, rather his mental collapse in the TB, following the previous game, when he was broken at love. This match end was a deer in the headlight peformance by Rafa, exactly the opposite of a mental strength.
But, of course, all of us e pick different moments in a match, depending on our point of view.

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

I am curious to see how Nadal fans will be offended by this. Interesting points Cali. I agree that mental strength and physicality are Nadal strengths that make him standout from the rest of the field, and certainly not his shotmaking ability, although he obviously can do this to some degree.

Yes, sure, only to "some" degree...

How many players do you see with Nadal's shotmaking ability? More than 3-4? If not, then, guess what, his shotmaking ability makes him standout from the rest of the field, as does his mental strength and physicality (which was lacking against Djokovic, by Nadal's own admission).

I find this funny to be honest. After winning his first slam in 2008, Djokovic, despite his immense talent and undeniable shotmaking ability, more or less disappointed for 3 years (which is not to say that he's done poorly). However, clear improvements in physicality, conditioning and mental strengths in 2011 turned him into near unplayable. Does that mean that his mental and physical capabilities are what make him standout from the rest of the field?

Couldn't it be a combination of both?

To answer your question, there's nothing "offensive" about what you're saying (and certainly not in Cali's OP), but with regard to your post, it's not so much that it's offensive as much as it's inaccurate.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

I am curious to see how Nadal fans will be offended by this. Interesting points Cali. I agree that mental strength and physicality are Nadal strengths that make him standout from the rest of the field, and certainly not his shotmaking ability, although he obviously can do this to some degree.

Silly

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

For me, in this mtch, is not Rafa's mental strength which is glaring, rather his mental collapse in the TB, following the previous game, when he was broken at love. This match end was a deer in the headlight peformance by Rafa, exactly the opposite of a mental strength.
But, of course, all of us e pick different moments in a match, depending on our point of view.

Actually I have to agree. And this is the best example of just people picking up examples to suit their narrative.

Listen, nobody's going to argue that Nadal is a physical streak, and one of the mentally toughest individuals to grace any sport. That much is so obvious that making threads about it off of minor (and inconsequential) occurrences is needless.

However, to pick this particular match as an example would be ignoring that Nadal broke Djokovic twice in the second set, including once to serve out the set, and and got broken back immediately, the second time without managing to put a single first serve in play. One could easily make the argument that he wasn't mentally tough enough in those moments (I don't think it's so much that, though, to be honest). What was glaring in those moments, is that Nadal, as he said in the press conference, lacked some physicality in key moments and that hurt him. Never mind the fact that he played a poor tie-break.

Yet here we are dealing with the same old threads praising Nadal's mental toughness for managing to adjust his water bottle symmetrically.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

In am match where Nadal df at set point, got broken at love while trying to close the second set and played one of his worst TB I can remember...the resident "expert" on everything rafa reminds us how Nadal's "mental" qualities are head and shoulder of his peer.

too much failure in this thread......my only and last post.

 

[Riotbeard]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

I usually avoid cali threads, but for some reason I felt like throwing gas in the fire today...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

Why is it so hard to accept that in addition to being very strong mentally, Nadal has elite shot making ability, hence the 11 slams and countless other achievements? Nadal himself said after MC that it is almost impossible to separate mental from physical. I firmly believe the reason Nadal is so strong upstairs is BECAUSE of his belief in his amazing shot making ability, that he can turn things around no matter what.

Nobody ever put spin on a tennis ball by thinking about it.

 

[Andrew William]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

My brother-in-law has the stubbornness of an ox who just took a dose of his stubborn tablets. He's fitter and stronger than that ox, too. Could drag a train out a dark tunnel. I think if I put a racket in his hand he could win against Nole. Seems like that's all it takes to make a highly disciplined and super-skilled top tennis athlete to lose a few points...

Haha! Good stuff Kieran.

 

[Billie]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final...

I think that most people look at things in tennis (as well as in life) too much in black and white colours, no shades or any other colour.

So in that kind of world (and with a lot of bias) we get to read that 11-time slam champion is not that talented and wins on stamina and physicality alone. Furthermore somebody who is the most talented player ever hasn't really won even 1 of these.

Or somebody who is emotional about private difficulties can't be affected on court by the circumstances.

My opinion is that first of all they are not only great tennis players (Nadal, Federer, Nole) but they have something else that separates them from the rest - something mental, some determination, call it a champion mentality. Every player can hit a great forehand or backhand many times in a match, but they can't keep it up like these champions can. But even these greats can slip a bit, lose some matches, look ordinary, but they usually get back on top and continue winning after a short downfall. There is a reason why some players win big titles and some don't.

 

[Moxie]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final...

I think that most people look at things in tennis (as well as in life) too much in black and white colours, no shades or any other colour.

So in that kind of world (and with a lot of bias) we get to read that 11-time slam champion is not that talented and wins on stamina and physicality alone. Furthermore somebody who is the most talented player ever hasn't really won even 1 of these.

Or somebody who is emotional about private difficulties can't be affected on court by the circumstances.

My opinion is that first of all they are not only great tennis players (Nadal, Federer, Nole) but they have something else that separates them from the rest - something mental, some determination, call it a champion mentality. Every player can hit a great forehand or backhand many times in a match, but they can't keep it up like these champions can. But even these greats can slip a bit, lose some matches, look ordinary, but they usually get back on top and continue winning after a short downfall. There is a reason why some players win big titles and some don't.

Good post, Billie. Lose the stuff and the noise and remember why champions do what they do, which is so rare and difficult.

 

[calitennis127]

RE: A little thing to take note of regarding Nadal in the Monte Carlo final....

In am match where Nadal df at set point,

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! After saving 7?

How many players would save 7 set points after being down 5-0 in the first set? How many would have the resiliency and persistence to fight in that situation and not just drop the set?

You are clueless.

got broken at love while trying to close the second set

Maybe Djokovic got ticked from having his serve broken and played ball in the next game that Nadal can't touch?

and played one of his worst TB I can remember

Ever heard of momentum shifts? With the bar that Djokovic himself has set vis-a-vis Nadal, losing the game at 5-4 in the second set was devastating to Nadal's psyche in light of everything that happened up to that point.

It's amazing at how poor you and others are at reading the psychology of players or understanding what their mindset is at given moments.

my only and last post.

Good for you. You can maintain more respect for your own beliefs that way instead of throwing them out to get refuted.

---

I am curious to see how Nadal fans will be offended by this. Interesting points Cali. I agree that mental strength and physicality are Nadal strengths that make him standout from the rest of the field, and certainly not his shotmaking ability, although he obviously can do this to some degree.

Silly

I doubt Broken will call you out on failing to provide an argument. LOL

 

[Moxie]

Cali, at this point what are you arguing? That Rafa nearly won that match by his mental prowess? I think everyone agrees that Djokovic was the one playing relaxed, confident, and had the upper-hand at almost all moments. Rafa has some way to go to regain his intensity for the big matches, post-injury.