World Tour Finals: Day 8 - Final - Sunday Nov. 16, Order of Play

[brokenshoelace]

I heard Rafa came close to doing the same thing Roger did right before the FO final, after being advised to do so by Denisovic. Uncle Toni had to make some last second interventions and talk him out of it: "We have to save our last injury card till after Wimbledon."

 

[nehmeth]

Who knows, maybe he thought it'd be inappropriate given that no match was played. If everyone thought it was such a bad thing the tournament director probably would've asked him to stay on court to cheer on Djokovic...

Maybe the tournament director was concerned Fed, in another narcissistic outburst, would start bawling like a baby on the platform (Oz 09') and steal the moment from the winner (*). :snigger

A single tear, brother, rolling down his lustrous cheek, that's all it woulda taken to get him a humanitarian award. The Dalai Lama Award for Empathy with Elephants, or something.

You just couldn't leave his being married to Mirka out of it could you. :nono

 

[Kieran]

:lolz:

 

[Billie]

You people would complain if Roger wasn't holding the microphone to interview Nole. Roger basically gave his apology and runner-up speech when he went on the court.

And let's not complain about him wussing out of a match when we are talking about Djokovic and Nadal fans here. The combined withdrawals, (fake) medical timeouts (ie 5th set Wimbledon this year) and quitting during matches would be an astronomic number.

From ATP rulebook:

k) Ceremonies

i) All tournament finalists must attend and participate in the post-match ceremonies, unless he is physically unable to do so as determined by the tournament Doctor. This includes retirements and finals not played due to a walkover

ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $5,000.

Since he was able to walk, the only other reason why he wouldn't participate in the post-walkover ceremonies is that he didn't give a damn and would rather pay a fine than be a sportsman.

We've heard it each time when other players had to retire or skip a tournament, so it is only fair that you guys hear it this time. And frankly, I don't remember either player ditching a final of a big tournament like this. They don't feel fit and able to compete, they still go out and get their ass kicked, such is life.

I can only imagine the reactions if it were Nole withdrawing before the final here.:nono

 

[tented]

You people would complain if Roger wasn't holding the microphone to interview Nole. Roger basically gave his apology and runner-up speech when he went on the court.

And let's not complain about him wussing out of a match when we are talking about Djokovic and Nadal fans here. The combined withdrawals, (fake) medical timeouts (ie 5th set Wimbledon this year) and quitting during matches would be an astronomic number.

From ATP rulebook:

k) Ceremonies

i) All tournament finalists must attend and participate in the post-match ceremonies, unless he is physically unable to do so as determined by the tournament Doctor. This includes retirements and finals not played due to a walkover

ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $5,000.

I wasn't aware of this rule, so thank you for pointing it out, Billie. It makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[DarthFed]

You people would complain if Roger wasn't holding the microphone to interview Nole. Roger basically gave his apology and runner-up speech when he went on the court.

And let's not complain about him wussing out of a match when we are talking about Djokovic and Nadal fans here. The combined withdrawals, (fake) medical timeouts (ie 5th set Wimbledon this year) and quitting during matches would be an astronomic number.

From ATP rulebook:

k) Ceremonies

i) All tournament finalists must attend and participate in the post-match ceremonies, unless he is physically unable to do so as determined by the tournament Doctor. This includes retirements and finals not played due to a walkover

ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $5,000.

Since he was able to walk, the only other reason why he wouldn't participate in the post-walkover ceremonies is that he didn't give a damn and would rather pay a fine than be a sportsman.

We've heard it each time when other players had to retire or skip a tournament, so it is only fair that you guys hear it this time. And frankly, I don't remember either player ditching a final of a big tournament like this. They don't feel fit and able to compete, they still go out and get their ass kicked, such is life.

I can only imagine the reactions if it were Nole withdrawing before the final here.:nono

Well like Tented I was not aware of that rule. And since Roger has so few withdrawals and has never pulled out before a final I'd imagine he was unaware as well.

As for "ditching a final" we've seen Nole retire from a grand slam semi before, Rafa has retired from a grand slam QF as well. Both are arguably bigger matches than the YEC final. There is the problem of making a bad situation worse if you play when you're injured and that's why I don't begrudge Rafa and Nole retiring from matches. Roger also has a big event ahead of him. I just think some of his, shall we say, HATERS truly think he was making it up and pulled out to save up for Davis Cup and prevent a loss to Nole. I think it's crazy...

 

[Billie]

Darth, like I said to Front's post in another thread, I will repeat it for you as well. You would buy anything that Federer sells and I don't mean just in this case. So let's leave it at that and I'll pay attention to your (Federer fans) comments next time Nole has to withdraw or retire in a match.

Nole never refused to go out and start a match, he was advised not to start Wimbledon 2007 semi final, he didn't listen, he was strongly advised not to play DC against Argentina, but he was too stubborn to listen. He had painful wrist this year in MC, yet he came out and lost meekly in the semi. He was puking his guts out in the morning of FO final this year, but he came out and also lost easily. Yes he retired a lot more than Federer in past, but Federer didn't have issues that Nole had and still has. You mock Nole and make fun of him and his retirements but I think they were all justified and were due to physical ailments. And btw, wouldn't you say that Nole made efforts in solving so many issues that he had in the beginning of his career and that he is considered one of the fair players on the tour?

I usually don't take it against players if they retire or withdraw, whoever that might be, this particular situation is a bit fishy and frankly I can't resist to poke at you guys a little bit, but trust me it won't change my opinion of Federer. It won't get any worse or better because of this withdrawal.

 

[DarthFed]

Darth, like I said to Front's post in another thread, I will repeat it for you as well. You would buy anything that Federer sells and I don't mean just in this case. So let's leave it at that and I'll pay attention to your (Federer fans) comments next time Nole has to withdraw or retire in a match.

Nole never refused to go out and start a match, he was advised not to start Wimbledon 2007 semi final, he didn't listen, he was strongly advised not to play DC against Argentina, but he was too stubborn to listen. He had painful wrist this year in MC, yet he came out and lost meekly in the semi. He was puking his guts out in the morning of FO final this year, but he came out and also lost easily. Yes he retired a lot more than Federer in past, but Federer didn't have issues that Nole had and still has. You mock Nole and make fun of him and his retirements but I think they were all justified and were due to physical ailments. And btw, wouldn't you say that Nole made efforts in solving so many issues that he had in the beginning of his career and that he is considered one of the fair players on the tour?

I usually don't take it against players if they retire or withdraw, whoever that might be, this particular situation is a bit fishy and frankly I can't resist to poke at you guys a little bit, but trust me it won't change my opinion of Federer. It won't get any worse or better because of this withdrawal.

The thing is I don't hold Nole's withdrawals against him, nor do I hold Nadal's withdrawals against him. These guys are all great competitors who believe in themselves and they live for the big matches. If they could be out there they would be. If Roger thought he could go out there this Sunday and compete risk-free I'm sure he would have. I hope you realize how crazy it sounds to think that he made this injury up and wouldn't want to try to win the YEC.

 

[nehmeth]

You people would complain if Roger wasn't holding the microphone to interview Nole. Roger basically gave his apology and runner-up speech when he went on the court.

And let's not complain about him wussing out of a match when we are talking about Djokovic and Nadal fans here. The combined withdrawals, (fake) medical timeouts (ie 5th set Wimbledon this year) and quitting during matches would be an astronomic number.

From ATP rulebook:

k) Ceremonies

i) All tournament finalists must attend and participate in the post-match ceremonies, unless he is physically unable to do so as determined by the tournament Doctor. This includes retirements and finals not played due to a walkover

ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $5,000.

Since he was able to walk, the only other reason why he wouldn't participate in the post-walkover ceremonies is that he didn't give a damn and would rather pay a fine than be a sportsman.

We've heard it each time when other players had to retire or skip a tournament, so it is only fair that you guys hear it this time. And frankly, I don't remember either player ditching a final of a big tournament like this. They don't feel fit and able to compete, they still go out and get their ass kicked, such is life.

I can only imagine the reactions if it were Nole withdrawing before the final here.:nono

Amen. Thanks for posting Billie.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

You people would complain if Roger wasn't holding the microphone to interview Nole. Roger basically gave his apology and runner-up speech when he went on the court.

And let's not complain about him wussing out of a match when we are talking about Djokovic and Nadal fans here. The combined withdrawals, (fake) medical timeouts (ie 5th set Wimbledon this year) and quitting during matches would be an astronomic number.

From ATP rulebook:

k) Ceremonies

i) All tournament finalists must attend and participate in the post-match ceremonies, unless he is physically unable to do so as determined by the tournament Doctor. This includes retirements and finals not played due to a walkover

ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $5,000.

Since he was able to walk, the only other reason why he wouldn't participate in the post-walkover ceremonies is that he didn't give a damn and would rather pay a fine than be a sportsman.

We've heard it each time when other players had to retire or skip a tournament, so it is only fair that you guys hear it this time. And frankly, I don't remember either player ditching a final of a big tournament like this. They don't feel fit and able to compete, they still go out and get their ass kicked, such is life.

I can only imagine the reactions if it were Nole withdrawing before the final here.:nono

I agree that not participating in the post-match ceremony is against the rules.
However, do we know whether he was made aware of that by the organizers/atp
in time. Given that he has never before given a walkover in a final, perhaps he
is not aware of it.

Once in a match against Andy, Novak came to the net and his racquet crossed the
net when he hit a shot. Novak was given the point as nobody noticed it. Later in the
presser, Novak admitted that his racquet indeed crossed the net in that shot, but
claimed that he did not know it is illegal. Most club players are aware of this rule,
I think. If Novak can be unaware of a rule that relates to the game, why can't
Federer be unaware of a rule that relates to post-tourney ceremony etiquette.

 

[nehmeth]

This line of thought began with some who felt that if Fed was able to walk out and apologize to the fans, he should have been able to walk out and stand there (or sit) while Novak received the year end trophy.

Billie actually looked it up and saw that it was in the rules and posted it. Fed may not have known it was against the rules to not show. I didn't know it was in there, but it makes sense.

Probably because it really is pretty crappy to call your opponent to say you forfeited, and then go out and apologize to the fans, but not show up for the ceremony.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

This line of thought began with some who felt that if Fed was able to walk out and apologize to the fans, he should have been able to walk out and stand there (or sit) while Novak received the year end trophy.

Billie actually looked it up and saw that it was in the rules and mentioned it. Fed may not have known it was against the rules. I didn't know that was in the rules, but it makes sense.

Probably because it really is pretty crappy to call your opponent, and then go out and apologize to the fans, but then not show up for the ceremony.

That is where you need to put the thinking cap on. If Roger wanted to be rude, why
did he even bother to call Novak and personally apologize? If Roger was doing some shady
withdrawal, how come he had the courage to come out openly and apologize to fans?
He was trying to be as decent as he could. Most probably he was not aware of the rules
and he was not told so by anybody in time. It does not happen every day and so it is
easy to not be aware of the rules and simply try to do what you think is decent.

 

[masterclass]

His appearance to apologize to everyone was considered his "Participation in the closing ceremonies" with full knowledge and approval from the ATP, so there is no rule breaking here. There is no rule stating exactly how one participates. I think a lot of people here try to make an unfortunate situation even worse with their keyboard opinions without thinking of the big picture.

Federer didn't want to steal Nole's glory if you will, by appearing with him, and then hogging the limelight with them both on the stage in a bad situation. You have to remember that every top official from the ATP was present, including CEO Kermode. The tournament, ATP, and chief parties involved decided this was the way to go, and I agree. Roger came on separately earlier, apologized to all, gathered his runner-up plate behind the scenes, and left the stage completely for Nole. Since Roger withdrew it seems appropriate to me.

I'm sure you will still have your own opinions about it, but I still think this was for the best, and so did the ATP.

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[tented]

Masterclass, do you work for the ATP? If not, I'm curious how you can make such statements as "His appearance to apologize to everyone was considered his 'Participation in the closing ceremonies' with full knowledge and approval from the ATP" and "The tournament, ATP, and chief parties involved decided this was the way to go."

 

[mrzz]

^Well put.

[Edit: I was refering to Masterclass post. I guess he's using common sense. Everything that happened surely was decided, or at the least finally aproved, by the ATP... ]

 

[masterclass]

I won't say whom I work for, but please think a bit. Who is the tournament run by? Who was there? Who announced the situation? Do you think for one minute that this wasn't done with the full knowledge and approval of all those there?

The officials were kept informed of Roger's situation starting earlier in the day. Mr. Kermode had to have a plan B, and made calls to Murray and talked with the other doubles participants. Federer attempted to warm up, but couldn't play and informed Mr. Kermode and others, including Nole.

Now do you think Roger Federer would decide on his own, without any discussion, approval, or agreement that he would walk on the court and apologize, constituting his closing participation, instead of having a normal trophy ceremony with maudlin interviews and comments? He may have offered this suggestion, but please consider that the organizers and officials in the end decide what and how things are going to happen.

Respectfully,
masterclass

 

[nehmeth]

If Roger was doing some shady withdrawal, how come he had the courage to come out openly and apologize to fans?He was trying to be as decent as he could. Most probably he was not aware of the rules
and he was not told so by anybody in time. It does not happen every day and so it is
easy to not be aware of the rules and simply try to do what you think is decent.

The withdrawal wasn't shady, (though it may have been suggested).

Fed is not practicing for the DC Final, and even Novak said after their phone conversation that Roger's chances of playing there were in question.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/18/us-tennis-davis-federer-idUSKCN0J21VF20141118

According to MC, the tour officials knew all about the rules. Supposedly Roger was apprised of the situation and they worked something out with him that they felt would satisfy the rule without his having to appear with Novak in the ceremony itself.

Reading the rules (again thank you for posting Billie), I still don't see how the officials finagled it (even in their minds) to say his going out to apologize to the crowd constituted his attending and participating in the post match ceremonies.

As of now, it's as done as Fed's back.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Nole never refused to go out and start a match, he was advised not to start Wimbledon 2007 semi final, he didn't listen, he was strongly advised not to play DC against Argentina, but he was too stubborn to listen. He had painful wrist this year in MC, yet he came out and lost meekly in the semi. He was puking his guts out in the morning of FO final this year, but he came out and also lost easily. Yes he retired a lot more than Federer in past, but Federer didn't have issues that Nole had and still has.

Yeah, lucky Federer never had to play with a sore throat.

You mock Nole and make fun of him and his retirements but I think they were all justified and were due to physical ailments. And btw, wouldn't you say that Nole made efforts in solving so many issues that he had in the beginning of his career and that he is considered one of the fair players on the tour?

Agreed. There was no way Novak could have played 3 more games against Roddick in Australia without ending up on his death bed. Or 3 more games against Federer in Monte Carlo without doing permanent damage to his sore throat.

I usually don't take it against players if they retire or withdraw, whoever that might be, this particular situation is a bit fishy and frankly I can't resist to poke at you guys a little bit, but trust me it won't change my opinion of Federer. It won't get any worse or better because of this withdrawal.

What's fishy about it? Seriously, why in the hell would a player reach a final then suddenly go: "You know what? I don't feel like playing tomorrow because I might lose." Yup, I'm sure that's exactly what went through Fed's mind. Someone should have sent him a youtube link to his last match with Novak. That would have eased his fears. I wonder why didn't Federer withdraw ahead of that one.

This is Mastoor level stuff. No wonder you defend him. 2014 has been an awful year for the level of discussion on these boards.

 

[brokenshoelace]

As far as the reaction to this had Novak been the one to withdraw. I can only speak for myself:

If Novak had a Davis Cup final to think of, I wouldn't say anything. It would be the wise choice for sure. However, if it had been the last match of the season, yeah, I'd criticize him for not trying to at least giving it a go. The same applies to Fed. If this had been his last match of the season, I'd criticize him for sure.

You can't BUT be understand when players retire/withdraw to conserve themselves. However, this differs on a case by case basis. I was critical of Nadal when he retired against Murray in Australia (2010). Playing 3 extra games wouldn't have done permanent damage to his knees, and he already has time off between Australia and the next tournament anyway, so there would have been plenty of time to rest. I think Rafa himself regrets that retirement, hence not retiring against Ferrer the following year and against Wawrinka this year. He even referenced the Murray match on both occasions.

 

[Federberg]

You know... if you add up the multiple threads discussing this issue, we're probably at 8 pages already