Will Novak pass Rafa?

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
As has been said before, we have to adjust probabilities after each Slam, but RG is particularly important. Rafa buys himself some breathing room by winning, but if Novak wins, not only does he narrow the gap, but he takes away Rafa's easiest Slam for a year. If neither wins, I think it helps Novak slightly because Rafa needs RG more than Novak does.

As much as it pains me to say this, I'll go ahead and say it: as sloppy as Djokovic has been at the US Open and as haphazard as Federer's game is there, I would not downplay Nadal's chances. I have never seen a player overachieve at a Grand Slam the way that Nadal has at the US Open, but a lot of that has to do with the underperforming of his main rivals and other Top 5/Top 10 players. And there is no reason to discount those as factors going forward.

Obviously, if Djokovic plays Nadal on hardcourts anywhere, he is a definitive favorite because he is just a better player, especially on that surface. But the question is how they each handle the field and the conditions at that particular event. So while I do expect Djokovic to win the US Open, my optimism remains cautious. I could see the great overachiever winning by default again because everyone else underperforms, although such good fortune is unlikely two years in a row.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,529
Reactions
14,665
Points
113
As much as it pains me to say this, I'll go ahead and say it: as sloppy as Djokovic has been at the US Open and as haphazard as Federer's game is there, I would not downplay Nadal's chances. I have never seen a player overachieve at a Grand Slam the way that Nadal has at the US Open, but a lot of that has to do with the underperforming of his main rivals and other Top 5/Top 10 players. And there is no reason to discount those as factors going forward.

Obviously, if Djokovic plays Nadal on hardcourts anywhere, he is a definitive favorite because he is just a better player, especially on that surface. But the question is how they each handle the field and the conditions at that particular event. So while I do expect Djokovic to win the US Open, my optimism remains cautious. I could see the great overachiever winning by default again because everyone else underperforms, although such good fortune is unlikely two years in a row.
You will never stop saying that Rafa has "over-achieved." But that's kind of a sloppy phrase. I know it's partisan, from you, but let's look at how meaningless it is, vis-a-vis Rafa, the big 3, and in relation to other players. If a player wins a Major, they did achieve that goal. However, let me offer you Marin Cilic. He certainly found his top game for one US Open, but it doesn't really correspond to the rest of the results in his career, even though he's managed a couple of other finals at Majors, where he hasn't performed particularly well. He played a great tournament at USO 2014, but you could argue that he "over-achieved, based on expectations, in that particular fortnight, and based on subsequent results. If a player has 19 Majors, however, there's a probability that he won them by being a superior player to all of the others, and he has a career to back it up. Nadal won 2 of his USO's beating Djokovic. You will never stop being bitter over the 2013 final, I expect, but that doesn't change the outcome. And it's not like Federer and Novak haven't had less than challenging finals, or paths to glory, in some of their Major wins. If you won't call that "over-achieving," it's only based on your prejudice against Nadal. The Big 3 are where they are because they are extraordinarily talented. Yes, some ways of getting to a Major win have been easier than others, for all of them. But perhaps only in the short-view. In the long-view, the path to such success is a much more painstaking road, which starts with talent, but is worn smooth by great effort, commitment and ambition. None of them has "over-achieved." When they look "lucky," they have accrued the 'luck' that comes to the talented and the committed.
 
Last edited:

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,529
Reactions
14,665
Points
113
Like saying a woman is “kind of pregnant”, minimizing an actual fact in reality.
I'm not sure this metaphor works. Sure, either you're pregnant or you're not. But Cali's denial is on a larger scale. He doesn't pretend that he thinks Nadal's lack of talent is a half-measure. He full-on believes Rafa lacks any talent. He's said it many times. This is a denial on a massive scale. It's not just "kind of pregnant," it's rather "kind of not even a tennis player."
 

Jelenafan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
3,650
Reactions
4,954
Points
113
Location
California, USA
I'm not sure this metaphor works. Sure, either you're pregnant or you're not. But Cali's denial is on a larger scale. He doesn't pretend that he thinks Nadal's lack of talent is a half-measure. He full-on believes Rafa lacks any talent. He's said it many times. This is a denial on a massive scale. It's not just "kind of pregnant," it's rather "kind of not even a tennis player."

I kind of disagree with you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

Nadalfan2013

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
2,767
Reactions
1,421
Points
113
Nadal has actually underachieved. If it weren’t for his many injuries throughout his career, forcing him to miss so many months and slams almost on a yearly basis in his prime, he would already have a huge lead in major titles over Federer and Djokovic.
 

Bonaca

Major Winner
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
2,114
Reactions
867
Points
113
If Nadal had played a less intensive style, maybe he would have had less injuries, but maybe also less won. Just maybe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GameSetAndMath

Front242

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
22,892
Reactions
3,892
Points
113
Nadal has actually underachieved. If it weren’t for his many injuries throughout his career, forcing him to miss so many months and slams almost on a yearly basis in his prime, he would already have a huge lead in major titles over Federer and Djokovic.

Yeah, 'cos he wins every one he enters lol. Good logic.
:wacko::unsure:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nadalfan2013

tented

Administrator
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
21,611
Reactions
10,381
Points
113
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
And it's not like Federer and Novak haven't had less than challenging finals, or paths to glory, in some of their Major wins. If you won't call that "over-achieving," it's only based on your prejudice against Nadal.

Federer‘s 2017 Wimbledon & 2018 AO immediately come to mind. And then there’s the 2009 RG ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

atttomole

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
3,344
Reactions
1,136
Points
113
Federer’s 2017 Wimbledon wasn’t as easy as people say. There could have been easier wins for Federer than Wimbledon 2017. I am not sure about AO 2018 either.
 

brokenshoelace

Grand Slam Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
9,380
Reactions
1,334
Points
113
As much as it pains me to say this, I'll go ahead and say it: as sloppy as Djokovic has been at the US Open and as haphazard as Federer's game is there, I would not downplay Nadal's chances. I have never seen a player overachieve at a Grand Slam the way that Nadal has at the US Open, but a lot of that has to do with the underperforming of his main rivals and other Top 5/Top 10 players. And there is no reason to discount those as factors going forward.

Obviously, if Djokovic plays Nadal on hardcourts anywhere, he is a definitive favorite because he is just a better player, especially on that surface. But the question is how they each handle the field and the conditions at that particular event. So while I do expect Djokovic to win the US Open, my optimism remains cautious. I could see the great overachiever winning by default again because everyone else underperforms, although such good fortune is unlikely two years in a row.

Just FYI 50% of Nadal's US Open wins came by beating Djokovic in the final. Now, you can talk about Novak's level and pretend he stunk up the joint in those finals, which of course is bullshit but to say he "underachieved" when he actually reached a final is ridiculous.

And just FYI you keep repeating this when Nadal won the tournament 4 times, yet never say shit about Novak winning the FO ONCE and has beaten Nadal only once while being spanked 6 times, and the ONLY time he did those things is during Nadal's worst two seasons on tour. Every other time, there was only one winner, the same one...every fucking year. So yeah, something tells me winning a tournament 4 times is enough to indicate how good someone is at the tournament, while winning only once under very convenient circumstances (Nadal pulled out of the tournament in 2016) while getting owned by that player every other time, is a lot more "under-achievy."

It's always funny seeing dumb posts get a lot of likes by the same bitter people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nadalfan2013

Nadalfan2013

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
2,767
Reactions
1,421
Points
113
Just FYI 50% of Nadal's US Open wins came by beating Djokovic in the final. Now, you can talk about Novak's level and pretend he stunk up the joint in those finals, which of course is bullshit but to say he "underachieved" when he actually reached a final is ridiculous.

And just FYI you keep repeating this when Nadal won the tournament 4 times, yet never say shit about Novak winning the FO ONCE and has beaten Nadal only once while being spanked 6 times, and the ONLY time he did those things is during Nadal's worst two seasons on tour. Every other time, there was only one winner, the same one...every fucking year. So yeah, something tells me winning a tournament 4 times is enough to indicate how good someone is at the tournament, while winning only once under very convenient circumstances (Nadal pulled out of the tournament in 2016) while getting owned by that player every other time, is a lot more "under-achievy."

It's always funny seeing dumb posts get a lot of likes by the same bitter people.

:clap::thumbs-up::approved
 

the AntiPusher

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
16,985
Reactions
7,079
Points
113
It is well past time for the Rafa haters to accept that he's a great player on hards and grass. Is he as good as Roger and Novak on those surfaces? No, but he's still great and better than almost everyone in history.
Just as DarthFed ridiculously refuses to accept the BETTER player won Wimbledon 2008..I refuse to believe that the BEST player won Wimbledon 2018 semi's final with that f#uckin roof closed. If it wasn't the deciding factor, why did they change the rules the subsequent year.. Rafa's grasscourt was at it's highest level and he would have found a way to defeat Roger again..That loss on that surface was a devastating blow to Rafa mentally just as history will show last year's final loss may be for Roger's mentally. IMO
 

Bonaca

Major Winner
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
2,114
Reactions
867
Points
113
We all have our bitter moments and results from the past.
Having excuses or explanations why something should have gone the other way. Looking through subjective fan- glasses.

I wonder how few posts came from most of you Novak haters and Nadaltrolls also self called experts,
now slowly you wake up and come again to light.

Welcome back all of you, it is not that interesting without you.
 

the AntiPusher

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
16,985
Reactions
7,079
Points
113
We all have our bitter moments and results from the past.
Having excuses or explanations why something should have gone the other way. Looking through subjective fan- glasses.

I wonder how few posts came from most of you Novak haters and Nadaltrolls also self called experts,
now slowly you wake up and come again to light.

Welcome back all of you, it is not that interesting without you.
I am not a Novak hater..ask Fiero or Moxie..they have been around long enough to "vet" my honesty... re-read my post ..Why did the rules change? It's not an excuse but the truth
 

Bonaca

Major Winner
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
2,114
Reactions
867
Points
113
I am not a Novak hater..ask Fiero or Moxie..they have been around long enough to "vet" my honesty... re-read my post ..Why did the rules change? It's not an excuse but the truth
I don’t meant you. You no hater and certainly no troll.

I don’t know why they changed the rule. If this was Nadals best Grass level, he should have won.

Some „experts„ wrote there is no excuse in losing because of special conditions, after I wrote that I think Novak would have beaten Thiem in last RG SF.

You believe Nadal would have won if roof was not closed?
I don’t know, but you are right, Nadal played very good that day, Novak far from his best, he was on his way back and this win was a huge boost for him. So yes it was a great opportunity Nadal missed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: atttomole

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
However, let me offer you Marin Cilic. He certainly found his top game for one US Open, but it doesn't really correspond to the rest of the results in his career, even though he's managed a couple of other finals at Majors, where he hasn't performed particularly well. He played a great tournament at USO 2014, but you could argue that he "over-achieved, based on expectations, in that particular fortnight, and based on subsequent results.

And that would be correct.

Nadal won 2 of his USO's beating Djokovic. You will never stop being bitter over the 2013 final, I expect, but that doesn't change the outcome.

Correct on all counts. That said, I think you should take into consideration that Djokovic's overall record on hardcourts against Nadal (20-7) now exceeds Nadal's record against Djokovic on clay (17-7). Outside of the two US Open final losses, Djokovic's record against Nadal on hardcourts is 20-5 (or 19-5 outside of the US Open). When you take that into consideration, it is definitely arguable that Nadal has overachieved in his US Open finals record against Djokovic.

If Nadal had a 20-5 record against someone on a certain surface and that the same player beat him in 2 of 3 Grand Slam finals on that surface, would the thought cross your mind that Nadal's opponent had overachieved in those particular matches?

We all know the answer to that one.

In fact, you emphatically reject the suggestion that Djokovic has underachieved at the French Open despite having a better record against Nadal on clay than Nadal has against Djokovic on hards (and at the French the discrepancy is not 4 to 3 but 13 to 1).

And it's not like Federer and Novak haven't had less than challenging finals, or paths to glory, in some of their Major wins.

Fair point, but that's not my argument.

The Big 3 are where they are because they are extraordinarily talented. Yes, some ways of getting to a Major win have been easier than others, for all of them.

That doesn't address the question of whether Nadal has overachieved at the US Open (winning 4 titles to Djokovic's 3) as someone who has never won Shanghai, Paris, World Tour Finals, or Miami and has only won Cincinnati once while having a 7-20 record against Djokovic.
 
Last edited:

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
I'm not sure this metaphor works. Sure, either you're pregnant or you're not. But Cali's denial is on a larger scale. He doesn't pretend that he thinks Nadal's lack of talent is a half-measure. He full-on believes Rafa lacks any talent. He's said it many times. This is a denial on a massive scale. It's not just "kind of pregnant," it's rather "kind of not even a tennis player."

That's not what I have said. Don't be ridiculous.

I never said Nadal has no talent. What I said is that the scale of success he has had does not correspond to how his tennis ability matches up.

Is Nadal an excellent clay court tennis player? Without a doubt.

Should he have 13 French Opens to only 1 for Djokovic and 1 for Federer? I don't think so.

Why are you so allergic to the idea of considering that possibility?