Will Novak pass Federer?

[El Dude]

From the research I did, if Novak were to win six Slams at age 29 and older, he's be the first player of the Open Era to do so, and I think the first player since Bill Tilden, who won 10 Slams after turning 29, 6 amateur and 4 pro. But that was a very different era and even then, Tilden was a bit of a freak.

That said, maybe Novak is a bit of a freak as well. I think the odds are against him, but it could happen.

 

[Kieran]

From the research I did, if Novak were to win six Slams at age 29 and older, he's be the first player of the Open Era to do so, and I think the first player since Bill Tilden, who won 10 Slams after turning 29, 6 amateur and 4 pro. But that was a very different era and even then, Tilden was a bit of a freak.

That said, maybe Novak is a bit of a freak as well. I think the odds are against him, but it could happen.

Thanks for the data, ED. it shows how prohibitive it is, and especially for players who have already achieved a lot. Connors and Agassi probably felt a need of a spurt to make up for lost time. The high achievers are usually burnt out by that stage. However, until somebody shows otherwise, Novak is favourite to win the next slam...

 

[El Dude]

I'll take it one step further and offer speculative percentages...

Novak
1+ more (12 total) - 90%
2+ more (13 total) - 85%
3+ more (14 total) - 80%
4+ more (15 total) - 70%
5+ more (16 total) - 50%
6+ more (17 total) - 30%
7+ more (18 total) - 20%

Or something like that....

Here's an interesting question, and maybe worthy of its own poll: Who has a better chance of winning at least one more Slam, Roger or Rafa? I'd say Rafa has a slight edge until Roland Garros this year. If he doesn't win RG this year, then it plummets to below Roger.

 

[Kieran]

The next realistic shake at the stick for Roger, he'll be almost 35. I think a good bet is that neither of them win another, but Rafa may have more goes at it than Roger. However, Rafa needs to re-learn how to win on the bigger stage...

 

[Front242]

He won't have more goes at it the way he's going :snicker

 

[Fiero425]

This is true, but as I said above, Novak will be 29 at the start of the next major. We need one of the statistical experts here now to tell us, but how many slams have been won in the open era by players older than 29? I know Connors won 3, I think Roger has one, Agassi has 3 or 4. There might be others. Even given the poor level of competition currently, is it asking too much for Nole to win six more? I think so...

Your wish is my command. Here are all the Slams won by players age 29 and older. Quite a few, as it turns out, but most in the 70s.

1968 Ken Rosewall (33, FO), Rod Laver (29, Wim)
1969 Rod Laver x 4 (30, 30, 30, 31)
1970 Ken Rosewall (35, USO)
1971 Ken Rosewall (36, AO)
1972 Ken Rosewall (37, AO), Andres Gimeno (34, FO)
1973 John Newcombe (29, USO)
1975 John Newcombe (31, AO), Arthur Ashe (32, WIM)
1982 Jimmy Connors (29, Wim; 30, USO)
1983 Jimmy Connors (31, USO)
1990 Ivan Lendl (29, AO), Andres Gomez (30, FO)
1998 Petr Korda (30, AO)
1999 Andre Agassi (29, FO, USO)
2000 Andre Agassi (29, AO)
2001 Andre Agassi (30, AO), Goran Ivanisevic (30, WIM)
2002 Pete Sampras (31, USO)
2003 Andre Agassi (32, AO)
2012 Roger Federer (30, WIM)
2015 Stan Wawrinka (30, FO)

5 Rod Laver
4 Ken Rosewall, Andre Agassi
3 Jimmy Connors
2 John Newcombe
1 Lots

This means nothing since Nole's not like any of these past champions! Who's more fit, limber, and injury free than this man? He also's playing more events; never missing a slam like Connors was doing at the dawn of the OPEN era! Nothing about the game is comparable to the past with the higher level of athletes, homogenized courts/balls, extra protection with 32 seeds, and of course how weak the field is right now! Mentally, they've been stunted by a reliable and consistent Federer, Rafa coming and going with impunity and still holding onto his status in the top echelon, and the stability of Nole who hasn't dropped in the rankings once since he arrived 10 years ago! Fedal had huge leads in so many categories and I just marvel seeing Nole move up the ranks if not surpassing them already! Let me make this clear, I'm not necessarily a fan of Nole and his game, but he doesn't offend my sensibilities on or off the court so it's cool that he owns this era! I felt we needed a well deserved change from the incessant prattle of how great Roger and Rafa are to the history of tennis and fandom! At least I'm a bit more realistic, making sure it's apparent their rivalry was a sham; Nadal owning Roger lock, stock, and barrel for the most part! I say it again, the real rivalries of this age is Nole and Roger or Rafa; H2H proves the point! I'm comfortable with the top; just hoping the rest of the tour catches up because he's flooring it leaving them all in his dust! :nono :cover :angel: :dodgy: :eyepop

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I don't think he will. I see maybe a 15-16 slam total for Novak. I think the closer he gets to Nadal and even Federer slam numbers we might see him do what Serena did trying to reach 18 and currently in reaching number 22 which is flub a few slams because of nerves and moments. However if he can do a calendar slam, win an Olympic gold medal and maybe do some other things if he comes up one less than Fed it might not matter.

 

[Front242]

This is true, but as I said above, Novak will be 29 at the start of the next major. We need one of the statistical experts here now to tell us, but how many slams have been won in the open era by players older than 29? I know Connors won 3, I think Roger has one, Agassi has 3 or 4. There might be others. Even given the poor level of competition currently, is it asking too much for Nole to win six more? I think so...

Your wish is my command. Here are all the Slams won by players age 29 and older. Quite a few, as it turns out, but most in the 70s.

1968 Ken Rosewall (33, FO), Rod Laver (29, Wim)
1969 Rod Laver x 4 (30, 30, 30, 31)
1970 Ken Rosewall (35, USO)
1971 Ken Rosewall (36, AO)
1972 Ken Rosewall (37, AO), Andres Gimeno (34, FO)
1973 John Newcombe (29, USO)
1975 John Newcombe (31, AO), Arthur Ashe (32, WIM)
1982 Jimmy Connors (29, Wim; 30, USO)
1983 Jimmy Connors (31, USO)
1990 Ivan Lendl (29, AO), Andres Gomez (30, FO)
1998 Petr Korda (30, AO)
1999 Andre Agassi (29, FO, USO)
2000 Andre Agassi (29, AO)
2001 Andre Agassi (30, AO), Goran Ivanisevic (30, WIM)
2002 Pete Sampras (31, USO)
2003 Andre Agassi (32, AO)
2012 Roger Federer (30, WIM)
2015 Stan Wawrinka (30, FO)

5 Rod Laver
4 Ken Rosewall, Andre Agassi
3 Jimmy Connors
2 John Newcombe
1 Lots

This means nothing since Nole's not like any of these past champions! Who's more fit, limber, and injury free than this man? He also's playing more events; never missing a slam like Connors was doing at the dawn of the OPEN era! Nothing about the game is comparable to the past with the higher level of athletes, homogenized courts/balls, extra protection with 32 seeds, and of course how weak the field is right now! Mentally, they've been stunted by a reliable and consistent Federer, Rafa coming and going with impunity and still holding onto his status in the top echelon, and the stability of Nole who hasn't dropped in the rankings once since he arrived 10 years ago! Fedal had huge leads in so many categories and I just marvel seeing Nole move up the ranks if not surpassing them already! Let me make this clear, I'm not necessarily a fan of Nole and his game, but he doesn't offend my sensibilities on or off the court so it's cool that he owns this era! I felt we needed a well deserved change from the incessant prattle of how great Roger and Rafa are to the history of tennis and fandom! At least I'm a bit more realistic, making sure it's apparent their rivalry was a sham; Nadal owning Roger lock, stock, and barrel for the most part! I say it again, the real rivalries of this age is Nole and Roger or Rafa; H2H proves the point! I'm comfortable with the top; just hoping the rest of the tour catches up because he's flooring it leaving them all in his dust! :nono :cover :angel: :dodgy: :eyepop

Um no the h2h doesn't prove anything other than blind fanboyism. Roger at 34 has only just for the first time been behind in the h2h. Dwell on that for a second 'cos the losses now are because he's 34 and miles from his prime while Djokovic is 28 and 100% in his prime. Likewise Nadal is well past his prime too. Just 'cos he's almost the same age as Djokovic means nothing 'cos Nadal's prime has well and truly ended. Hewitt's prime was at age 21-22 and he paled in comparison to those years later on. And sure, CVAC, Novak, whatever his name is the "fittest" (artificially mind you) guy on tour currently but only since using that yoke in 2010.

He's also not leaving anyone in the dust and this is such a classic bandwagon jumping example. It's to be expected that the world number 1 in his prime is beating everyone, especially when his main rival could easily have retired years ago. 34 is ancient in tennis terms. The rest of them just aren't very good anymore (Murray, Nadal) or never were in the first place. It's not a strong era by any means.

 

[Riotbeard]

This is true, but as I said above, Novak will be 29 at the start of the next major. We need one of the statistical experts here now to tell us, but how many slams have been won in the open era by players older than 29? I know Connors won 3, I think Roger has one, Agassi has 3 or 4. There might be others. Even given the poor level of competition currently, is it asking too much for Nole to win six more? I think so...

Your wish is my command. Here are all the Slams won by players age 29 and older. Quite a few, as it turns out, but most in the 70s.

1968 Ken Rosewall (33, FO), Rod Laver (29, Wim)
1969 Rod Laver x 4 (30, 30, 30, 31)
1970 Ken Rosewall (35, USO)
1971 Ken Rosewall (36, AO)
1972 Ken Rosewall (37, AO), Andres Gimeno (34, FO)
1973 John Newcombe (29, USO)
1975 John Newcombe (31, AO), Arthur Ashe (32, WIM)
1982 Jimmy Connors (29, Wim; 30, USO)
1983 Jimmy Connors (31, USO)
1990 Ivan Lendl (29, AO), Andres Gomez (30, FO)
1998 Petr Korda (30, AO)
1999 Andre Agassi (29, FO, USO)
2000 Andre Agassi (29, AO)
2001 Andre Agassi (30, AO), Goran Ivanisevic (30, WIM)
2002 Pete Sampras (31, USO)
2003 Andre Agassi (32, AO)
2012 Roger Federer (30, WIM)
2015 Stan Wawrinka (30, FO)

5 Rod Laver
4 Ken Rosewall, Andre Agassi
3 Jimmy Connors
2 John Newcombe
1 Lots

Your totals are a bit off. According to the list, Agassi also had five majors from 29 on.

 

[Riotbeard]

Your wish is my command. Here are all the Slams won by players age 29 and older. Quite a few, as it turns out, but most in the 70s.

1968 Ken Rosewall (33, FO), Rod Laver (29, Wim)
1969 Rod Laver x 4 (30, 30, 30, 31)
1970 Ken Rosewall (35, USO)
1971 Ken Rosewall (36, AO)
1972 Ken Rosewall (37, AO), Andres Gimeno (34, FO)
1973 John Newcombe (29, USO)
1975 John Newcombe (31, AO), Arthur Ashe (32, WIM)
1982 Jimmy Connors (29, Wim; 30, USO)
1983 Jimmy Connors (31, USO)
1990 Ivan Lendl (29, AO), Andres Gomez (30, FO)
1998 Petr Korda (30, AO)
1999 Andre Agassi (29, FO, USO)
2000 Andre Agassi (29, AO)
2001 Andre Agassi (30, AO), Goran Ivanisevic (30, WIM)
2002 Pete Sampras (31, USO)
2003 Andre Agassi (32, AO)
2012 Roger Federer (30, WIM)
2015 Stan Wawrinka (30, FO)

5 Rod Laver
4 Ken Rosewall, Andre Agassi
3 Jimmy Connors
2 John Newcombe
1 Lots

This means nothing since Nole's not like any of these past champions! Who's more fit, limber, and injury free than this man? He also's playing more events; never missing a slam like Connors was doing at the dawn of the OPEN era! Nothing about the game is comparable to the past with the higher level of athletes, homogenized courts/balls, extra protection with 32 seeds, and of course how weak the field is right now! Mentally, they've been stunted by a reliable and consistent Federer, Rafa coming and going with impunity and still holding onto his status in the top echelon, and the stability of Nole who hasn't dropped in the rankings once since he arrived 10 years ago! Fedal had huge leads in so many categories and I just marvel seeing Nole move up the ranks if not surpassing them already! Let me make this clear, I'm not necessarily a fan of Nole and his game, but he doesn't offend my sensibilities on or off the court so it's cool that he owns this era! I felt we needed a well deserved change from the incessant prattle of how great Roger and Rafa are to the history of tennis and fandom! At least I'm a bit more realistic, making sure it's apparent their rivalry was a sham; Nadal owning Roger lock, stock, and barrel for the most part! I say it again, the real rivalries of this age is Nole and Roger or Rafa; H2H proves the point! I'm comfortable with the top; just hoping the rest of the tour catches up because he's flooring it leaving them all in his dust! :nono :cover :angel: :dodgy: :eyepop

Um no the h2h doesn't prove anything other than blind fanboyism. Roger at 34 has only just for the first time been behind in the h2h. Dwell on that for a second 'cos the losses now are because he's 34 and miles from his prime while Djokovic is 28 and 100% in his prime. Likewise Nadal is well past his prime too. Just 'cos he's almost the same age as Djokovic means nothing 'cos Nadal's prime has well and truly ended. Hewitt's prime was at age 21-22 and he paled in comparison to those years later on. And sure, CVAC, Novak, whatever his name is the "fittest" (artificially mind you) guy on tour currently but only since using that yoke in 2010.

He's also not leaving anyone in the dust and this is such a classic bandwagon jumping example. It's to be expected that the world number 1 in his prime is beating everyone, especially when his main rival could easily have retired years ago. 34 is ancient in tennis terms. The rest of them just aren't very good anymore (Murray, Nadal) or never were in the first place. It's not a strong era by any means.

To be fair both Nadal and Federer got to rack up a decent number of wins on Novak before he reached his prime. As you note with Nadal, from 2007-2010, Nadal was in his prime, but Novak was not, so it balances out. You really have changed your tune overnight on Novak, now that you finally read the news that he has been using the perfectly legal CVAC machine for a half a decade.

 

[Fiero425]

Your wish is my command. Here are all the Slams won by players age 29 and older. Quite a few, as it turns out, but most in the 70s.

1968 Ken Rosewall (33, FO), Rod Laver (29, Wim)
...
2015 Stan Wawrinka (30, FO)

5 Rod Laver
4 Ken Rosewall, Andre Agassi
3 Jimmy Connors
2 John Newcombe
1 Lots

This means nothing since Nole's not like any of these past champions! Who's more fit, limber, and injury free than this man? He also's playing more events; never missing a slam like Connors was doing at the dawn of the OPEN era! Nothing about the game is comparable to the past with the higher level of athletes, homogenized courts/balls, extra protection with 32 seeds, and of course how weak the field is right now! Mentally, they've been stunted by a reliable and consistent Federer, Rafa coming and going with impunity and still holding onto his status in the top echelon, and the stability of Nole who hasn't dropped in the rankings once since he arrived 10 years ago! Fedal had huge leads in so many categories and I just marvel seeing Nole move up the ranks if not surpassing them already! Let me make this clear, I'm not necessarily a fan of Nole and his game, but he doesn't offend my sensibilities on or off the court so it's cool that he owns this era! I felt we needed a well deserved change from the incessant prattle of how great Roger and Rafa are to the history of tennis and fandom! At least I'm a bit more realistic, making sure it's apparent their rivalry was a sham; Nadal owning Roger lock, stock, and barrel for the most part! I say it again, the real rivalries of this age is Nole and Roger or Rafa; H2H proves the point! I'm comfortable with the top; just hoping the rest of the tour catches up because he's flooring it leaving them all in his dust! :nono :cover :angel: :dodgy: :eyepop

Um no the h2h doesn't prove anything other than blind fanboyism. Roger at 34 has only just for the first time been behind in the h2h. Dwell on that for a second 'cos the losses now are because he's 34 and miles from his prime while Djokovic is 28 and 100% in his prime. Likewise Nadal is well past his prime too. Just 'cos he's almost the same age as Djokovic means nothing 'cos Nadal's prime has well and truly ended. Hewitt's prime was at age 21-22 and he paled in comparison to those years later on. And sure, CVAC, Novak, whatever his name is the "fittest" (artificially mind you) guy on tour currently but only since using that yoke in 2010.

He's also not leaving anyone in the dust and this is such a classic bandwagon jumping example. It's to be expected that the world number 1 in his prime is beating everyone, especially when his main rival could easily have retired years ago. 34 is ancient in tennis terms. The rest of them just aren't very good anymore (Murray, Nadal) or never were in the first place. It's not a strong era by any means.

I can turn this around on you and say Nole lost some major finals because of his youth and inexperience; so in essence, Rafa and Roger have inflated GS and Masters' numbers! :angel: :dodgy: :ras:

 

[Riotbeard]

This means nothing since Nole's not like any of these past champions! Who's more fit, limber, and injury free than this man? He also's playing more events; never missing a slam like Connors was doing at the dawn of the OPEN era! Nothing about the game is comparable to the past with the higher level of athletes, homogenized courts/balls, extra protection with 32 seeds, and of course how weak the field is right now! Mentally, they've been stunted by a reliable and consistent Federer, Rafa coming and going with impunity and still holding onto his status in the top echelon, and the stability of Nole who hasn't dropped in the rankings once since he arrived 10 years ago! Fedal had huge leads in so many categories and I just marvel seeing Nole move up the ranks if not surpassing them already! Let me make this clear, I'm not necessarily a fan of Nole and his game, but he doesn't offend my sensibilities on or off the court so it's cool that he owns this era! I felt we needed a well deserved change from the incessant prattle of how great Roger and Rafa are to the history of tennis and fandom! At least I'm a bit more realistic, making sure it's apparent their rivalry was a sham; Nadal owning Roger lock, stock, and barrel for the most part! I say it again, the real rivalries of this age is Nole and Roger or Rafa; H2H proves the point! I'm comfortable with the top; just hoping the rest of the tour catches up because he's flooring it leaving them all in his dust! :nono :cover :angel: :dodgy: :eyepop

Um no the h2h doesn't prove anything other than blind fanboyism. Roger at 34 has only just for the first time been behind in the h2h. Dwell on that for a second 'cos the losses now are because he's 34 and miles from his prime while Djokovic is 28 and 100% in his prime. Likewise Nadal is well past his prime too. Just 'cos he's almost the same age as Djokovic means nothing 'cos Nadal's prime has well and truly ended. Hewitt's prime was at age 21-22 and he paled in comparison to those years later on. And sure, CVAC, Novak, whatever his name is the "fittest" (artificially mind you) guy on tour currently but only since using that yoke in 2010.

He's also not leaving anyone in the dust and this is such a classic bandwagon jumping example. It's to be expected that the world number 1 in his prime is beating everyone, especially when his main rival could easily have retired years ago. 34 is ancient in tennis terms. The rest of them just aren't very good anymore (Murray, Nadal) or never were in the first place. It's not a strong era by any means.

I can turn this around on you and say Nole lost some major finals because of his youth and inexperience; so in essence, Rafa and Roger have inflated GS and Masters' numbers! :angel: :dodgy: :ras:

From 2011-2013, the three years Novak and Nadal were both in their primes, Novak went 9-6. Federer and Novak were never in their primes at the same time, so it's impossible to isolate a time span where the playing field was relatively equal.

 

[nehmeth]

To be fair both Nadal and Federer got to rack up a decent number of wins on Novak before he reached his prime. As you note with Nadal, from 2007-2010, Nadal was in his prime, but Novak was not, so it balances out. You really have changed your tune overnight on Novak, now that you finally read the news that he has been using the perfectly legal CVAC machine for a half a decade.

Good point re Fedal racking up their wins before Novak hit his prime. On another note the CVAC is still allowed (probably) based on the fact that there is no scientific evidence it is capable of producing any of the results it claims.

 

[Front242]

This means nothing since Nole's not like any of these past champions! Who's more fit, limber, and injury free than this man? He also's playing more events; never missing a slam like Connors was doing at the dawn of the OPEN era! Nothing about the game is comparable to the past with the higher level of athletes, homogenized courts/balls, extra protection with 32 seeds, and of course how weak the field is right now! Mentally, they've been stunted by a reliable and consistent Federer, Rafa coming and going with impunity and still holding onto his status in the top echelon, and the stability of Nole who hasn't dropped in the rankings once since he arrived 10 years ago! Fedal had huge leads in so many categories and I just marvel seeing Nole move up the ranks if not surpassing them already! Let me make this clear, I'm not necessarily a fan of Nole and his game, but he doesn't offend my sensibilities on or off the court so it's cool that he owns this era! I felt we needed a well deserved change from the incessant prattle of how great Roger and Rafa are to the history of tennis and fandom! At least I'm a bit more realistic, making sure it's apparent their rivalry was a sham; Nadal owning Roger lock, stock, and barrel for the most part! I say it again, the real rivalries of this age is Nole and Roger or Rafa; H2H proves the point! I'm comfortable with the top; just hoping the rest of the tour catches up because he's flooring it leaving them all in his dust! :nono :cover :angel: :dodgy: :eyepop

Um no the h2h doesn't prove anything other than blind fanboyism. Roger at 34 has only just for the first time been behind in the h2h. Dwell on that for a second 'cos the losses now are because he's 34 and miles from his prime while Djokovic is 28 and 100% in his prime. Likewise Nadal is well past his prime too. Just 'cos he's almost the same age as Djokovic means nothing 'cos Nadal's prime has well and truly ended. Hewitt's prime was at age 21-22 and he paled in comparison to those years later on. And sure, CVAC, Novak, whatever his name is the "fittest" (artificially mind you) guy on tour currently but only since using that yoke in 2010.

He's also not leaving anyone in the dust and this is such a classic bandwagon jumping example. It's to be expected that the world number 1 in his prime is beating everyone, especially when his main rival could easily have retired years ago. 34 is ancient in tennis terms. The rest of them just aren't very good anymore (Murray, Nadal) or never were in the first place. It's not a strong era by any means.

To be fair both Nadal and Federer got to rack up a decent number of wins on Novak before he reached his prime. As you note with Nadal, from 2007-2010, Nadal was in his prime, but Novak was not, so it balances out. You really have changed your tune overnight on Novak, now that you finally read the news that he has been using the perfectly legal CVAC machine for a half a decade.

No issue with the same thing happening now as it's an inevitable cycle that as one great ages another younger guy enters his. I have changed my tune, yes because while I like the guy's play, I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping. How can that be good for the sport in any way whatsoever? It belittles past achievements. Advancements in racquet technology, strings etc are one thing but this is total bs.

 

[nehmeth]

I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping.

Please show me (outside of the CVAC systems website) where any of their claims have been verified by science - especially the edge twice as powerful as blood doping.

If any of their claims were actually true, would the owners of CVAC systems and the inventor be living in a trailer park and barely able to make ends meet? No, they would be flush with cash.

 

[Riotbeard]

Um no the h2h doesn't prove anything other than blind fanboyism. Roger at 34 has only just for the first time been behind in the h2h. Dwell on that for a second 'cos the losses now are because he's 34 and miles from his prime while Djokovic is 28 and 100% in his prime. Likewise Nadal is well past his prime too. Just 'cos he's almost the same age as Djokovic means nothing 'cos Nadal's prime has well and truly ended. Hewitt's prime was at age 21-22 and he paled in comparison to those years later on. And sure, CVAC, Novak, whatever his name is the "fittest" (artificially mind you) guy on tour currently but only since using that yoke in 2010.

He's also not leaving anyone in the dust and this is such a classic bandwagon jumping example. It's to be expected that the world number 1 in his prime is beating everyone, especially when his main rival could easily have retired years ago. 34 is ancient in tennis terms. The rest of them just aren't very good anymore (Murray, Nadal) or never were in the first place. It's not a strong era by any means.

To be fair both Nadal and Federer got to rack up a decent number of wins on Novak before he reached his prime. As you note with Nadal, from 2007-2010, Nadal was in his prime, but Novak was not, so it balances out. You really have changed your tune overnight on Novak, now that you finally read the news that he has been using the perfectly legal CVAC machine for a half a decade.

No issue with the same thing happening now as it's an inevitable cycle that as one great ages another younger guy enters his. I have changed my tune, yes because while I like the guy's play, I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping. How can that be good for the sport in any way whatsoever? It belittles past achievements. Advancements in racquet technology, strings etc are one thing but this is total bs.

First of all the only evidence you have presented is that it may be twice as effective as blood doping. May and scientifically proven are entirely different things! You have provided no proof. You have your conclusion based on anecdotal (and admittedly inconclusive) evidence. Although I do assume Novak thinks it helps or else he wouldn't do it.

I actually think it's fine for the sport, assuming it's healthy, which no one has presented any evidence that it is not. You are also running with an argument that assumes 1 to 1 correlation, which is rarely case. The egg could be partially responsible for Novak's change from 2010 to 2011, but it seems unlikely it is wholly responsible. Change in diet (even if gluten free is bs, he is definitely eating super healthy, and lost like 10 pounds from 2010 to 2011), improved serve, and an improved forehand certainly played a major role in Novak's change.

I also would be curious to see what type of regiment of non-banned supplements and technological approaches to training that other players are taking. I can't imagine Novak is the only person seeking legal ways to improve their recovery and fitness. Are you opposed to cryo-chambers?

I also think it's a bit unfair (although feel how you want to feel) to assume that there is some objective spirit of the sport that you are the arbiter of, and thus Novak using a legal machine is somehow a cheater. Perhaps, he views the sport differently. Maybe he is a health nerd, and finds exciting new technologies that can safely improve human potential. I don't know, but I don't get why the fact that you think one way, everybody else should, and thus he is now somehow breaking a rule that doesn't exist.

 

[Front242]

I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping.

Please show me (outside of the CVAC systems website) where any of their claims have been verified by science - especially the edge twice as powerful as blood doping.

If any of their claims were actually true, would the owners of CVAC systems and the inventor be living in a trailer park and barely able to make ends meet? No, they would be flush with cash.

He's hardly using it for placebo And he's your proof....the guy went from being a total cardio wreck end of 2010 to Superman in 2011 just a few months later. Seems to work a treat to me or why would he be rushing off to use it before and after matches. Also, he seems to recover pretty well from incredibly long matches which is more proof again.

 

[Riotbeard]

I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping.

Please show me (outside of the CVAC systems website) where any of their claims have been verified by science - especially the edge twice as powerful as blood doping.

If any of their claims were actually true, would the owners of CVAC systems and the inventor be living in a trailer park and barely able to make ends meet? No, they would be flush with cash.

He's hardly using it for placebo And he's your proof....the guy went from being a total cardio wreck end of 2010 to Superman in 2011 just a few months later. Seems to work a treat to me or why would he be rushing off to use it before and after matches. Also, he seems to recover pretty well from incredibly long matches which is more proof again.

That's all anecdotal, and assumes one to one correlation. Also there is difference in saying it does something effective and is twice as effective blood doping, which is what you have been arguing, based on nothing that would be considered valid by a scientist.

 

[nehmeth]

I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping.

Please show me (outside of the CVAC systems website) where any of their claims have been verified by science - especially the edge twice as powerful as blood doping.

If any of their claims were actually true, would the owners of CVAC systems and the inventor be living in a trailer park and barely able to make ends meet? No, they would be flush with cash.

He's hardly using it for placebo And he's your proof....the guy went from being a total cardio wreck end of 2010 to Superman in 2011 just a few months later. Seems to work a treat to me or why would he be rushing off to use it before and after matches. Also, he seems to recover pretty well from incredibly long matches which is more proof again.

:eyepop Ok. Well, there is scientific evidence that the blood doping works, based on more than one example.

With the egg, you just have Novak and the claims of the almost bankrupt CVAC systems. Your accessibility, and affordability arguments got shot down a couple of threads ago. If this is something that really works, why aren't we seeing different results among the top 100 - other than some 34 year old guy still playing better than everyone except Novak?

 

[Front242]

To be fair both Nadal and Federer got to rack up a decent number of wins on Novak before he reached his prime. As you note with Nadal, from 2007-2010, Nadal was in his prime, but Novak was not, so it balances out. You really have changed your tune overnight on Novak, now that you finally read the news that he has been using the perfectly legal CVAC machine for a half a decade.

No issue with the same thing happening now as it's an inevitable cycle that as one great ages another younger guy enters his. I have changed my tune, yes because while I like the guy's play, I find the CVAC against the spirit of sport and so should the authorities because anything that gives an edge twice as powerful as blood doping is a joke since blood doping is banned. It makes no sense at all. The problem is they can't test for this pos machine so nothing will change. When prior champions had to work for hours in the gym to stay fit you now have people just sitting in a space age machine reading a book or listening to music on headphones with an effect twice as powerful as illegal doping. How can that be good for the sport in any way whatsoever? It belittles past achievements. Advancements in racquet technology, strings etc are one thing but this is total bs.

First of all the only evidence you have presented is that it may be twice as effective as blood doping. May and scientifically proven are entirely different things! You have provided no proof. You have your conclusion based on anecdotal (and admittedly inconclusive) evidence. Although I do assume Novak thinks it helps or else he wouldn't do it.

I actually think it's fine for the sport, assuming it's healthy, which no one has presented any evidence that it is not. You are also running with an argument that assumes 1 to 1 correlation, which is rarely case. The egg could be partially responsible for Novak's change from 2010 to 2011, but it seems unlikely it is wholly responsible. Change in diet (even if gluten free is bs, he is definitely eating super healthy, and lost like 10 pounds from 2010 to 2011), improved serve, and an improved forehand certainly played a major role in Novak's change.

I also would be curious to see what type of regiment of non-banned supplements and technological approaches to training that other players are taking. I can't imagine Novak is the only person seeking legal ways to improve their recovery and fitness. Are you opposed to cryo-chambers?

I also think it's a bit unfair (although feel how you want to feel) to assume that there is some objective spirit of the sport that you are the arbiter of, and thus Novak using a legal machine is somehow a cheater. Perhaps, he views the sport differently. Maybe he is a health nerd, and finds exciting new technologies that can safely improve human potential. I don't know, but I don't get why the fact that you think one way, everybody else should, and thus he is now somehow breaking a rule that doesn't exist.

He's not breaking any rule but the fact that WADA said they needed to look into it more to see if it should be banned and yet he continued to use it seems pretty poor. If I take pro hormones that aren't classed as illegal then it clearly gives me a massive edge over a natural lifter taking just protein, creatine, aminos etc. Of course I'll be stronger. If tested and this shows as nothing illegal it's still bs 'cos it's a big edge over someone not using anything. Health nerds should go train in the gym and not expect a machine to make them fit. Yeah, I'm against all this new-age crap including cryo chambers. These guys breaking old slam winners records is meaningless now with all the $h1t they're taking/doing.

Re proof, I've already covered that in my reply to nehmeth. But yes, his serve and forehand have improved but his change from 2010 to 2011 was hardly just about ditching Todd Martin It's the recovery and increased stamina that is winning him matches mostly 'cos he never had either prior to 2011.